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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 9:29:45 GMT -6
I feel bad because this concept might have taken another thread ("Bizarre Situation") in a direction different than the one its author intended, so I will post my questions/comments here.
QUESTION 1
Are any of you coaches experiencing kids choosing other activities instead of games at a rate that you feel you need to have a policy/consequences for this action?
I guess it is just such an improbable concept for me to fathom, that kids would go through all the off season conditioning, gassers, squats, sprints, agility circuits, two-a-days, Sat. morning practices, study halls, blood, sweat, tears etc...and then choose to miss a game. I don't mean be FORCED to make a choice (ex, parents, family commitment, another extracurricular conflict). I mean CHOOSE to go to a concert, hunting, whatever.
Is this happening to people?
QUESTION 2
If you indeed have kids who are willing to go through all the off season conditioning, gassers, squats, sprints, agility circuits, two-a-days, Sat. morning practices, study halls, blood, sweat, tears etc and still choose to do something different, WILL HAVING SOME TYPE OF DETERRENT EVEN MATTER?
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Post by brophy on Jul 3, 2007 9:43:23 GMT -6
good question.
Because we platoon, the 'consequence' of missing time is there is a guy breathing down your neck to take your spot. We as coaches, have to put the best product on the field. If we are doing our jobs, we are training 2-3 deep at each position. The whole point is.....YOU CAN BE REPLACED (and will).
Nothing worse than having a stud have you by the balls because he KNOWS you can't run such-and-such without his prima donna butt. Sends the wrong message......about life in general.
You wanna miss one game....one practice?
Fine, go ahead.
But you aren't guaranteed a spot when you decide to "return". You lost reps....can you prove you are better than the guy who currently holds the #1 spot, now?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 9:54:27 GMT -6
Good point about the prima donna...BUT, I have to ask, would that prima donna skip the GAME? Excelling in the game is what makes him the prima donna in the first place. Putting up with all the practice/work etc... to PLAY in the games...we he skip a game?
Unlike A.I....we are NOT talking about practice. I definitely believe in a HARSH deterrent to anyone who skips practice... legit reason or not...kids choice or not... because people don't like practice and I could definitely see this being something that can be abused.
But games? Other than the potential of you being the next Wally Pip...i see no need for deterrent. But maybe the Louisiana kids are different than kids around the country.
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Post by brophy on Jul 3, 2007 10:06:50 GMT -6
Honestly, I cannot see.... or imagine....or rationalize.... a circumstance where a STARTER would opt out of playing a game.
What is the point? And NO, I've never heard of kids opting out of playing a GAME for anything...unless they outright QUIT the team. Only time I've seen kids choose to NOT play is due to injury - where they are cleared to play, but just choose NOT to play because of that injury.
Its not like you are playing 20+ games a season.....you only get a handful of contests.....
like the pros say "You get paid to practice...you play the game for FREE"
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Post by coachorr on Jul 3, 2007 13:49:31 GMT -6
Is it fair to the kid taking his spot? Is it fair to the team? Are you being fair as a coach, should you do nothing about it? Tough questions.
As a coach, you have to have the tough answer that is fair to the team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 14:39:43 GMT -6
coachorr---you have kids choosing to miss games?
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Post by playfast on Jul 3, 2007 15:19:28 GMT -6
If a player misses a game and it is not for a serious reason it is simple. He's gone!! Had a freshman last year tell the coaches he could not go to the freshman game because he was going to see his cousin play. His locker was cleaned that night!! Players get the message!!!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 15:24:48 GMT -6
Playfast---just a question...was he a starter? Not that it matters, but at LEAST i could wrap my head around that concept a little... (in a 14 year olds mind, watching a game is watching a game, whether it is HIS game or his cousins)
In situations like that ..if he was a starter... I would say it is time to evaluate the program. Are you forcing them to "earn" their games... How much work do they put in.
Regardless, I don't consider that situation "missing a game" I would say he quit. He said "I don't want to play football", and as such, I would say time to evaluate WHY he quit.
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Post by playfast on Jul 3, 2007 15:39:39 GMT -6
He was a starter and the freshman team was doing very well. His mom called and explained how his cousin was the starting quarterback and it was a big play-off game and etc. The point being those kids on his team learned a lesson about commitment to the team.
With the varsity guys it is understood that if you want to play you will be at practice everyday. I have no problem getting rid of kids that are not committed. Two years ago my starting fullback who was about 150 yards short of a 1,000 and was a sure fire All-Area and league pick came in with his father and mother and they told me that he was going with them to see his sister in college and he will miss a game. Before the parents even left the field house his locker was being cleaned out. Parents went to the papers and the Board of Ed. but the bottom line was he did not fully commit himself to the team. Many of the guys on the team have siblings in college but a line had to be drawn. Coaches in the area could not believe it. But the first day of practice I tell the kids the program comes first. We are all making sacrifices.
Won the division and finished third in the region with a sophmore replacement.
Kid had a lot of schools looking at him but once I told them he was dismissed for missing a game because he was going to see his sister in college he ended up at a JC. JC coach and I spoke in the spring said the kid is getting a lot of looks by the MAC teams.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 15:50:53 GMT -6
Wow...very impressive. I am sure you are proud of your ability to bully high school kids. Wayne and Garth time baby... "i'm not worthy" "I'm not worthy" What a turd. Sorry, but anyone that comes on here and brags about that story... needs to look at themselves and ask why do you coach... My paperboy has been having trouble getting the paper where I like it...can you come bully him around a bit too, and show him how impressive you are...wait...he is only 7...maybe in a few years
None of your kids learned anything about commitment in those stories...all that was learned was that adults have egos. You weren't going to have any parent tell you what to do....and the parents weren't going to have a coach tell them what was best for the family...and YOU EVEN SUBMARINE THE KID during recruiting.
Wow... just plane....WOW...
Ok, wait...all of the above might be harsh, but if the parents were making the kid go (and remember, you dont know the family dynamics ..this might be a situation where the kid didn't feel comfortable "speaking against the family" ) then I think all of the above fits.
If this was a situation where the KID chose it, and just had the parents there to support ...well.... then I say you need to look at your program and figure out why an All Area kid would quit on you.
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Post by knighter on Jul 3, 2007 16:22:09 GMT -6
My question to you coachd is this, is his program yours?
Just because it is too harsh for you does not make it too harsh for everyone.
I do not see that in anyway as a bullying situation. The kid made a choice, and had to live with the consequences of that choice.
Why call him out?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 16:29:53 GMT -6
Because the PARENT made a choice Knighter. The PARENTS made a choice (according to his statement) The coach made a choice (by the looks of it, based on ego) and the KID HAD TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF EVERYONES ACTIONS.
The HARSH..comment was about my comments to him. I was saying I might be too harsh on him, if indeed the situation was that the kid was the one making the choice. Based on his own words (The parents came in and THEY said HE was going to see his sister) leads me to believe this was NOT the kids choice. His writing describes a situation where the coach was going to show the parent he held all the power....and the parent was going to show the coach his word didn't carry any weight in their household...and THE KID LOST OUT IN THE END.
I called him out because he is a coach, and he serves at the pleasure of the KIDS, not his own ego.
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Post by los on Jul 3, 2007 18:38:37 GMT -6
Every coach has his own rules, some modify them with age but you gotta stick with what you believe in! As a player myself when young, my parents knew better than to try to include me in any activitys during football season that conflicted with practice or games, thats just the way it was! On the other hand, our coach's favorite motto was God, Family, then football. So I assumed that some "real emergency" concerning my faith or family superceded the football and could be pardoned?
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Post by coachorr on Jul 3, 2007 19:55:05 GMT -6
Coach D 5085, Great question. No kids have ever asked to be taken out of a game or have said that they would not be there, at least not starters.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 3, 2007 20:12:05 GMT -6
Coachd- wow! that was really uncalled for. He did not bully a kid. There's a level of trust and commitment that was expected, that player and his family failed to meet the standard and his association with the team was ended. And what was he to say when college coaches asked why he failed to complete the season? Was he to lie to them or simply tell them the truth?
WHAT YOU DO YOU DO TO THE TEAM. Like it or not an individuals actions/decisions effects everybody on that team. Parents need to understand that as well. He related that story to make the point it was not just the 3rd stringer held to that standard but every member of that team.
Nobody does this job to bully kids. Thats a terrible acusation to make. You know next to nothing about this man- I'd say you need far more to go on to accuse anyone of that.
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Post by easye17 on Jul 3, 2007 20:34:26 GMT -6
I agree that I didn't think it was bullying, but dropping him certainly does take some stones. I love the message of commitment to the team, but is it possible to do it without cutting him out? Each coach needs to make that decision for himself.
I think skipping a game is a grevious error by a player, either willingly or not, and it certainly can't be tolerated. The consequences, I believe, need to reflect what it is that you are trying to teach your players.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 3, 2007 20:53:24 GMT -6
things to ponder:
if a kid gets hurt and has to miss a game, do you kick him off the team? (didn't choose to miss game, had to ... same as the 2 scenarios being discussed)
if a kid fails a class and is inelgible and must miss a game, do you kick him off? (did he choose to fail? possibly)
if a kid has to miss a game to go with parents to a grandfather's funeral do you kick him off? what if you find out later the parents lied and it was for other reason?
if a kid steals from his teammates in the locker room, do you kick him off?
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smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211 
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Post by smd on Jul 3, 2007 21:12:21 GMT -6
i've pondered...
1. if he is physically able to attend the game and then chooses not to then yes ... he is off the team.
2. state association rules state that he cannot be on the sideline ... so he kicked himself off the team according to the state rules.
3. no because its a funeral, not to say hi. 3b. no because the parents lied and not the kid.
4. yes
my 2 cents...
as the head coach, there had better be something in the handbook about it, because if you stay in it long enough it probably will happen. i have known some very successful head coaches that address this with their programs (some have had this happen to various degrees) and they don't have to "re-evaluate their programs". they laid down the law and went on about their business.
its easy to jaw jack with someone over the internet about how they run their program. but some of this is ridiculous... so if you don't like how Coach X is running his program, then quit judging him and go apply for his job if you can do better.
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Post by CoachDaniel on Jul 3, 2007 21:48:26 GMT -6
I don't remember this ever happening for a game (I've had a kid tank the first day of a wrestling tournament so he could go hunting the next...can't prove that though). BUT...
1. As long as he's still showing up and being a part of the team, of course not. If he sprained his ankle and took a week to hang out with his girlfriend, yes.
2. don't know about ya'll, we dont have the failure situation - he's either eligible from August til January, or he's not eligible at all here. But I would say no, you shouldn't kick him off because football is the incentive for many to do the school work. Remember what's really important...
3. Parents take him away, you can't punish the player. And it doesn't matter if the parents lied, they made the decision and not the kid.
4. Yes.
We had a freshman on JV that was called up for varsity one week. But the parents had planned a trip that friday since he'd been playing on Wednesday nights all season. Would you really kick a 14 year old off the team for that? No one had died, it was just a trip. But it was mom's decision, she believed a weekend at Grandma's was more important than varsity football. Who am I to say she's wrong and punish her kid for it?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 22:04:41 GMT -6
1) Coach 0rr---That is why I am taking the stance that I am taking. You don't need a deterrent for skipping GAMES. Everyone loves the games. The kids don't want to miss the games in the first place, so having some type of punishment isn't going to change ANY behavior is it? 2)Los makes an excellent point ---HIS parents understood the priority he placed on football. Not all do...and SOME will NOT ALLOW it. 3)Reaper--That player and his family? Did you grow up in a democratic house where you had an equal say? "What you do you do to the team" So lets analyze the coaches actions in this case. When told by a kids Parents "This is what we are doing with OUR son", the coach (Who may or may not have tried to talk this out...since the kids locker was cleared out before they left) then proceeds to "really teach the team a lesson". What lesson? That, Since bobby joe wasn't going to be there for his team because his parents were taking him away, THAT NOW thanks to coach, he will not have any more opportunities to be there for this team. And the lesson is...  Heck, even if this was 100% the kids decision, I would challenge the coach to reevaluate his program. As far as the recruiting situation, as a college coach, we rarely dealt with interfering parents (which is what this seems to be a case of...the parent making the kid do something). Since that is the case, The coach could have easily said ... yeah, he is a great player... lots of tools... but his parents... well, they forced him to go on this trip, and Our policy says that is dismissal. It is all in the wording. If you worded it such that football was important to him, but not so much his parents...the college coach still recruits him. You make it so that football isn't important to HIM (regardless of parents) and nobody touches him. Easye17--I would ask...what commitment to the team do you love? Because all I see is a coach cutting off the teams nose to spite its face. I see a coach hurting his team (cutting an all area player) because the parents wouldn't bow before him, and had the nerve to make their own family decisions. Again I ask...WHO HAS TO TOLERATE A PLAYER SKIPPING A GAME. If the kids are TRYING to skip the games, YOU HAVE ISSUES. If you need CONSEQUENCES to try and keep kids from slyly skipping games...YOU HAVE ISSUES. Huey--I didn't want to bring up the injury issues, because to quite frankly I thought that would be too obvious. Apparently I was wrong. I would like to see Huey's questions answered as well as the ones I posed....what if the COACH had something happen... a wedding, a death, a spouses death, a sickness in family, a birth, a carwreck.. a housefire.....who knows.... To me, this seems like a very simple topic. 1)You can have kids that unintentionally miss games, and that probably eats them up inside more than you can imagine... and since it is unintentional, no additional punishment/consequence will change that behavior 2) You can have kids that intentionally choose other things that they feel they would rather do than play in a football came (but apparently they don't mind Spring, summer, camp, two a days, weights, etc. ) Since these kids are choosing to do the hard stuff, but will choose something other than a game... you have to ask how invested your players are. I guess I am just lucky and my players all want to play in the games. |
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 3, 2007 22:53:09 GMT -6
LOL, If you are head coach you have issues- every dang day. Certainly does not mean you reevaluate your program everytime one comes up. And you keep dodging this question-
What about the other boys? Those who have worked and dreamed about this perhaps for years- do they deserve to perhaps have a dream they've worked for lost because Mr. & Mrs. Smith decide Jr needs to say hello to his sister? And lets face it not having an all region player does have an impact on a teams ability to be successful. If you explain to his parents and him what impact that decision has on the group as a whole and they choose to still go it's clear what the priorities are and the team is not one of them. Would I clean out his locker? Do not know but there would be consequences, it would be made clear that missing for this reason is not acceptable. You also fail to look at how this effects team chemistry- you don't think they'll not be hard feelings that could fester all season and result in resentment and mistrust? I know I'd have more then a few kids {censored} if one of their team mates did this and they'd be {censored} if I just shrugged and said parents call his punishment is he didn't play. In fact their punishment is also he didn't play. I'd sure hate to not have an all region player battling anyone on our schedule- not because he's hurt, sick or performing poorly in class but because he went to visit his sister for no particular reason.
The kid who misses without consequence may not have a problem with you but the same cannot be said of every other player........ and their parents.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 23:24:28 GMT -6
LOL, If you are head coach you have issues- every dang day. Certainly does not mean you reevaluate your program everytime one comes up. And you keeping dodging answering this question- Ok, first--you do have issues everyday. However, no issue, NOT A SINGLE ONE I can think of is greater than having kids NOT ACTUALLY WANTING TO PLAY IN FOOTBALL GAMES. Because, lets face it...that is the whole point. What about the other boys? Those who have worked and dreamed about this perhaps for years- do they deserve to perhaps have a dream they've worked for lost because Mr. & Mrs. Smith decide Jr needs to say hello to his sister? And lets face it not having an all region player does have an impact on a teams ability to be successful. If you explain to his parents and he what impact that has on the group as a whole and they choose to still go it's clear what the priorities are and the team is not one of them. Would I clean out his locker? Do not know but there would be consequences, it would be made clear that missing for this reason is not acceptable. You also fail to look at how this effects team chemistry- you don't think they'll not be hard feelings that could fester all season and result in resentment and mistrust? I know I'd have more then a few kids {censored} if one of their team mates did this and they'd be {censored} if I just shrugged and said parents call his punishment is he didn't play. In fact their punishment is he didn't play. I'd sure hate to not have an all region player battling anyone on our schedule- not because he's hurt, sick or performing poorly in class but because he went to visit his sister for no particular reason. The kid who misses without consequence may not have a problem with you but the same cannot be said of every other player........ and their parents. Hey, I am not saying I would be happy with the situation, but you keep talking as if having "consequences" would change any behavior. Do you think your kids are stupid? Do you think that his teammates would see him go through Spring, Summer, Weights, Conditioning, August Heat, (Sept heat, Oct Heat and November Heat down here in Louisiana) Two a days, blood, sweat, bruises, cuts, blood...etc... AND THEN THINK HE DOESNT WANT TO PLAY??? Two things I don't like about the argument. You say that it isn't fair to the kids who show up. Fair is a bad word here, I would say it isn't really a great thing for them--because what if the kid in question was hurt, or for some other reason couldn't play... SAME exact situation...but you wouldn't use the word "fair" when discussing this situation. Second thing is that you are following sunk money in your rationale. You say that his not playing would be detrimental to the other teammates. I agree, however, this is not his choice right? So, by giving him any type of physical punishment, does this remedy the detriment to the other players? No, they still have to play without him. Does this make it any more "Fair" if they lose a game? ("Well, guys, we lost, but at least bobby joe has to run till he pukes...so that is good") And should you decided the punishment is to sit another game...WHAT ON EARTH does that accomplish "Ok guys, I know Bobby Joe let us down by not playing --mom's orders-- last week, so to make sure you guys are compensated, I will not play bobby joe this week either" I guess we will just have to agree to disagree...because the consequence in my mind, is that the kid went through all ote CRAPPY parts and then didn't play in the game. Do you have little ones? If/When you do... do you ever have problems with them not eating all of their DESSERT? NO... The problem lies in making sure that they eat all of their broccoli. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2007 23:40:05 GMT -6
I guess our fundamental disagreement is that some coaches here think that having a policy/consequences will change behavior of the parents. I don't see that happening. ---"Oh, little Johnny is going to have to miss the game because _____. What? If he misses, he will have to _______? Oh dear, I can't have that"
Sorry, I don't see that conversation happening.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 4, 2007 0:45:11 GMT -6
ACt test and the parents won't budge? He is not off the team, however, I do not start him in the next game, good discussion.
My worry is that as soon as you let one do it, then it becomes a precedence. What do you do if five kids have to take the ACT? Probably never happen, so what is the point.
My greatest concern is not for the kid missing the game, but for the kid who will lose his spot as soon as the starter comes back and for the team should they lose and for the QB should he get a Riddell in his back.
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Post by easye17 on Jul 4, 2007 6:43:01 GMT -6
I think most people will agree their are some things you can't control (death in the family, injury, etc.) and then things that can be controlled - visiting sisters at college being one of them. Coachd, I'm certainly not trying to cut off my nose to spite my face, but I also do think that the consequence should be more severe than ok, you missed this game and now everything is fine. Maybe he doesn't start or he sits the first half of the next game or the whole next game, I would not just drop him, either.
I will say this, I know 99% of parents I've worked with would never do this. The only other situation I've seen like this was with are girls basketball team and a girl who was an All-American soccer player who played club throughout the year. She missed a weekend game for a soccer tournament. The coach benched her for the following game.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 4, 2007 7:01:47 GMT -6
CoachD- The fundamental flaw with your reasoning is we often have rules that are in direct conflict with what parents believe, think or find reasonable. For example many teams have rules regarding color of the cleats- your stated rule is a primarily black cleat. Little johny's parents get him white. Why? They think it makes him look faster and they want that scholarship so they are pulling out all the stops- it's a parental decision do you cave and allow him and only him to have white cleats?
Some members of your team attend a kegger at a fellow players house. Not only are his parents aware they purchased the beer and act as quasi chaperones. Does he escape any potential consequences his team mates face because he was at home and his parents clearly condoned his behavior? Do the one's who's folks step forward and say hey we allow our boy to drink escape punishment as well?
A player is caught off campus in possesion of pot. It turns out it's not his it belongs to Mom and Dad and apparently getting high is something they often do together. No consequences at all from your program?
All rules are designed to impact behavior. Obviously no rule and the consequences for breaking it can change every individuals decision making process but obviously they change some. Do we not have rules because they'll fail to change all behavior? Or do we have rules and what we believe are appropriate consequences for breaking them and apply them when needed? In fact knowing that the rule has been tested and the consequences applied does effect the decisions others will make.
In the case of the coach who removed an all region player for missing a game when he felt it was avoidable likely has had a ripple effect over the years- parents and players know he is dead serious and will not hestitate to enforce those consequences. I'd guess it has likely had an impact on countless parents who know what happened previously- no one can say for sure because it never becomes an issue because they make decisions to not place themselves in that position.
According to your line of reasoning we should do away with drinking and driving laws as they apparently do not work because people still drink and drive but we all know people who insist on the use of desginated drivers because they cannot and will not risk getting a DUI because of the possible consequences so obviously those laws have an impact on behavior and the choices people make.
The rules a coach chooses to have are no different.
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Post by knighter on Jul 4, 2007 9:10:54 GMT -6
Coachd-
Maybe I am guilty of not reading the original post very closely. I still wonder though what is wrong with dealing with it that way? Parents need to know that PRACTICES (all of them) and GAMES (all of them) are important. I understand there are situations that arise that exceptions need to and should be made (ie. funerals, severe illness in the family, car accidents, etc.). But parents need to learn that the routine things in life (vacations, visits to siblings in college, dr. and dentist appointments, senior pictures etc.) need to be planned around football season/practice. That is my policy. So if the visit to sister in college, or the appointment to get senior pictures falls during a practice or scheduled game, we have a policy in place that handles that situation. Maybe my policy is different than "cutting". But I cover my bases. That has ben my policy since day 1, and continues to be, it was an issue early but parents and kids alike now know that I have expectations they need to live up to, and if they do not there is a price to pay. Thus those issues have basically solved themselves.
I guess you feel as if it is your job to say who is and is not a good coach. It is your job to point out flaws in the logic of coaches you do not know, which is okay coachd. I will not judge your ability to coach on that, and I feel that constructive criticism is a valuable learning tool. I am simply pointing out that what works for someone else in HIS program is what is right for him. What works for you is right for you. What works for me is right for me. My original post was not worded real well, as I was not meaning to call you out necessarily (which it really reads like I was I know). Was more trying to imply the above. That is my bad.
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Heck, even if this was 100% the kids decision, I would challenge the coach to reevaluate his program. As far as the recruiting situation, as a college coach, we rarely dealt with interfering parents (which is what this seems to be a case of...the parent making the kid do something). Since that is the case, The coach could have easily said ... yeah, he is a great player... lots of tools... but his parents... well, they forced him to go on this trip, and Our policy says that is dismissal. It is all in the wording. If you worded it such that football was important to him, but not so much his parents...the college coach still recruits him. You make it so that football isn't important to HIM (regardless of parents) and nobody touches him.