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Post by dubber on Nov 26, 2012 22:07:47 GMT -6
Coaches,
I hope we can discuss this without running into issues.
In my state, Indiana, we divide our 300 some odd schools into 5 classes. The largest 64 teams have the biggest gap (numbers wise) between #64 and #1, so next year it will be 6.
They are based on enrollment figures provided by the department of education.
We play all of our state championship games on Thanksgiving weekend.
In 1A, a private school won for the 4th straight year.
In 2A, a private school won for 4th straight year.
In 3A, a private school won for the 3rd straight year.
In 4A, a private school won for the 3rd straight year.
In 5A, a public school won.
Our state has instituted a new "success factor" rule. Each championship (from state to regional) is assigned a point value. If you exceed that point value over a certain period of time, then you move up a class.
All of these schools will be moving up. In our classification, both this year's state champion, and runner up will move up due to previous year's success.
Obviously, that creates a tremendous opportunity for our program, as well as a dozen others.
This rule does not address private schools directly, but it was obviously created for them.
I know the traditional reasons cited for why the private schools are so dominate in sports. The harsher critics claim out right recruitment of other players (some of the privates in the Indianapolis area have scholarships available for certain students).......the milder ones cite the ease of working with middle to upper class kids.
I would like to know how other states view/deal with private schools.
I'd like to keep it civil.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by fantom on Nov 26, 2012 22:15:09 GMT -6
In Virginia it's very simple- public schools and private are completely separate. They have different governing bodies and different playoffs.
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Post by dubber on Nov 26, 2012 22:21:04 GMT -6
In Virginia it's very simple- public schools and private are completely separate. They have different governing bodies and different playoffs. This has been discussed in Indiana. I'm not sure why it hasn't picked up traction. Has it always been that way in Virginia? Do you guys play any privates?
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Post by fantom on Nov 26, 2012 22:37:13 GMT -6
In Virginia it's very simple- public schools and private are completely separate. They have different governing bodies and different playoffs. This has been discussed in Indiana. I'm not sure why it hasn't picked up traction. Has it always been that way in Virginia? Do you guys play any privates? It's always been that way and I don't think that there's anybody seriously working to change it. We've never played a private school.
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Post by wybulldogs on Nov 26, 2012 22:47:24 GMT -6
PA has them mixed together. Taking a look at our AAA bracket and at this point we're one of the few publics left.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 22:55:41 GMT -6
Illinois has discussed this and the IHSA says that seperating public and private will never happen. This year, 5 private schools in the state championships (8 classes) with 3 champions.
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Post by huskerhoyahawk on Nov 26, 2012 23:22:34 GMT -6
PA has them mixed together. Taking a look at our AAA bracket and at this point we're one of the few publics left. As a proud public school grad, beat McDevitt!!!!
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Post by airitout616 on Nov 26, 2012 23:44:18 GMT -6
The school I coached at last year (took the year off, work conflict) won the state championship in there division. They never have played in the finals in school history. They basically are the best team in the state. The head coach came in 3 years ago and made the team a average program into a premiere program who competes nationally now. There is a ton of people pissed saying they recruit etc..., mostly public schools who got rolled up on but in previous years beat them. They accuse them for recruiting, which in there case I know they do not do. They provide high academic and now athletic standards and provide a good experience for there students. Of course there going to attract top tier student-athletes.
This is the first year I have really heard a big push to separate public and private schools in our state.
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Post by realdawg on Nov 27, 2012 5:09:03 GMT -6
In NC they are mostly separate, however, if a private pays, and agrees to follow NCHSAA rules they are allowed to play in the public league. Not really a problem here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 5:48:08 GMT -6
Tennessee has two divisions. Private schools who offer scholarships (about 30) play in division 2, while the other 385 public and privates play in division 1.
The 30 team Division 2 is divided into 2 classes bases on enrollment, meaning you have very tiny leagues.
Privates who play in division 1 get their enrollment multiplied by 1.3 for classification purposes but there's a rule that says they can't be required to play up more than 1 class higher when the multiplier is factored in. One team will benefit from this rule next year.
From there it gets really screwy. Division 1 is split evenly into 3 classifications (128 teams each) during the regular season for conferences, then divided into 6 classes (64 teams) for the playoffs. We are AAA during the regular season and 5A during the playoffs. The bigger schools in AAA are literally 2-3 times larger than the smaller ones. You can probably guess how that works when we play.
The state uses a supercomplex points system to determine playoff seeding that calculates 30 different variables to select the top 32 teams in each of the 6 playoff classes. The last two years they've made mistakes in their math. This year, they told one team they were in when they shouldn't have been, so they yanked them out and had the team who should have been in the playoffs go 5 hours away for their game, where they were still seeded lower than they actually should have been.
In short, our system sucks.
EDIT: I forgot about the other association in our state that governs 8 man ball among smaller privates. The state association doesn't support 8 man, so they're a totally seperate animal. We have very few 8 man teams, though.
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Post by John Knight on Nov 27, 2012 6:00:54 GMT -6
Ohio has 0ver 700 schools that play football and less than 20% are private but the State finals usually is over 50% private. ionships: www.OHSAA.org/news/Radio/radiohome.asp. OHSAA Football State Championship Pairings Home Teams Listed First Division I – Saturday, Dec. 1, 7 p.m., Canton Fawcett Stadium Toledo Whitmer (14‐0) vs. Cincinnati Archbishop Moeller (11‐3) Division II – Friday, Nov. 30, 7 p.m., Massillon Paul Brown Tiger Stadium Toledo Central Catholic (13‐1) vs. Trotwood‐Madison (12‐2) Division III – Saturday, Dec. 1, 11 a.m., Canton Fawcett Stadium Akron St. Vincent‐St. Mary (12‐2) vs. Bellevue (13‐1) Division IV – Friday, Nov. 30, 3 p.m., Canton Fawcett Stadium St. Clairsville (14‐0) vs. Clarksville Clinton‐Massie (14‐0) Division V ‐ Saturday, Dec. 1, 3 p.m., Massillon Paul Brown Tiger Stadium Kirtland (14‐0) vs. Coldwater (14‐0) This is what most private supporter say though! www.examiner.com/article/the-private-vs-public-debate-continues
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 6:06:47 GMT -6
On the issue of recruiting, what we struggle with in my area is a handful of moneyed suburban public programs illegally recruiting talent away from nearby programs, then playing those same teams during the season. The coaches there will swear they don't recruit, but I've seen it happen myself.
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Post by airraider on Nov 27, 2012 6:59:06 GMT -6
I coach at a school that competes with the Mississippi private schools, although we are actually in Louisiana.
I think Miss is completely separate... our association allows us to recruit kids as long as they are not from another association school.
The other privates in Louisiana who are members of the LHSAA are not allowed to openly recruit... but it happens.
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Post by CS on Nov 27, 2012 7:26:03 GMT -6
In Arkansas the private schools can go no lower in classification than 3A out 7A. However if they are a 3A sized school they have got to play a 4A schedule and so on. Most of our private schools are either 3 or 4A to say the least.
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Post by mitch on Nov 27, 2012 8:54:02 GMT -6
This is what they instituted in OK last year.
B. In athletic activities, a member school shall be placed one classification above the classification in which the member school would be placed according to ADM if the member school meets any three of the following four criteria:
i) the school has the ability to decline admission or enrollment to a student, even if the student and the student's parents (or custodial parent or court-appointed guardian with legal custody of the student) reside within that school's public school district or designated geographic area;
ii) the school is located within a fifteen (15) mile radius of a school placed in the 5A or 6A classification according to ADM;
iii) fewer than twenty-five (25) percent of the children enrolled at the school in grades nine through twelve qualify for free or reduced lunches;
iv) the school's ADM in grades nine through 12 has increased by fifty (50) percent or more over the previous three school years.
C. A school moved up one classification pursuant to the above criteria will be moved back down in classification in a particular activity if the school's team has not finished among the top eight teams in that activity in at least three of the previous five school years.
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Post by gdn56 on Nov 27, 2012 9:12:25 GMT -6
In Alabama there is a private school association with about 40 member schools. Additionally, many private schools play in the public school association, but with a multiplier in place, something like 1.3 for every kid. This forces the private schools to play up to negate the recruiting advantage. Private schools are very competitive in many sports, but certainly do not dominate football like the OP mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 10:41:12 GMT -6
I coach in Louisiana and our state association, the LHSAA, has pretty much been fighting a decades long war over private schools. Right now there is no enrollment modifier, no "success factor" or anything else. You simply play where your enrollment numbers dictate (though last year they did pass a proposal to allow you to play one class higher than your enrollment dictates). We have a few private and semi-private schools that seem to dominate every year, but I attribute that more to just good coaching than anything else. Also, to be honest, public school football in our state has really bottomed out due to budget cuts, consolidation, etc. The old gray mule just aint what she used to be.
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Post by airman on Nov 27, 2012 13:41:52 GMT -6
Illinois has discussed this and the IHSA says that seperating public and private will never happen. This year, 5 private schools in the state championships (8 classes) with 3 champions. They used to be separate until 1975 i believe. The prep bowl which pitted the top city private school vs public school routinely outdrew the state playoffs.
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Post by newhope on Nov 28, 2012 10:26:43 GMT -6
I would disagree with whether or not private schools are a problem in NC. An overwhelming majority of schools voted last year to kick them out (235-51)--but fell short of the number needed to do so. If it weren't a problem, the vote would not have been as one-sided as it was.
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 28, 2012 11:00:58 GMT -6
Our section of California is a giant sh!tshow. Within the ~100 or so schools within the CCS, there is a league called the West Catholic League which is composed of 8 denominational programs. They play whoever they want for their out of league games and then beat up on each other for their league schedule.
Our section's playoffs has four enrollment based divisions (I-IV) and an 'open' division. The Open is the top 4 WCAL teams, three of the "A" league champions, and whoever has the next highest power points via schedule, wins, etc. It's a bloodbath. After the first round of the Open this year, all 4 WCAL teams advanced. The Open effectively punishes the excellent public schools for having great seasons.
In D1, there were no WCAL teams because only 1 (Bellarmine Prep) has the population to qualify and they're in the Open Finals. In D2, Vassdiddy's squad is in the finals vs one of the best public schools of the last few decades in our section. In D3, my alma mater is playing the WCAL's 6th best team and is a huge underdog. D4 is WCAL-free, but has two private schools in the finals.
There's no where else in CA that has an equivalent to this, as I know understand it.
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Post by ogre5530 on Nov 28, 2012 13:31:04 GMT -6
Illinois has discussed this and the IHSA says that seperating public and private will never happen. This year, 5 private schools in the state championships (8 classes) with 3 champions. They used to be separate until 1975 i believe. The prep bowl which pitted the top city private school vs public school routinely outdrew the state playoffs. Not anymore...the Prep bowl is kind of a joke because you get a second rate private school vs one of the chicago public league teams. They traditionally are not that good with not a single team ever winning a state championsip.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 1, 2012 8:37:44 GMT -6
I coach in Louisiana and our state association, the LHSAA, has pretty much been fighting a decades long war over private schools. Right now there is no enrollment modifier, no "success factor" or anything else. You simply play where your enrollment numbers dictate That was actually the strategy used to "fight" against the private school success. Louisiana Powers Evangel and John Curtis were playing up (5A and 4A respectively--top class and second largest class) and winning, and thriving on playing the larger schools and receiving a bigger share of the limelight. Idea from the "big schools" was to try and marginalize those schools by making them play against schools in smaller classes.
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Post by coachbuck on Dec 1, 2012 8:46:01 GMT -6
Our section of California is a giant sh!tshow. Within the ~100 or so schools within the CCS, there is a league called the West Catholic League which is composed of 8 denominational programs. They play whoever they want for their out of league games and then beat up on each other for their league schedule. Our section's playoffs has four enrollment based divisions (I-IV) and an 'open' division. The Open is the top 4 WCAL teams, three of the "A" league champions, and whoever has the next highest power points via schedule, wins, etc. It's a bloodbath. After the first round of the Open this year, all 4 WCAL teams advanced. The Open effectively punishes the excellent public schools for having great seasons. In D1, there were no WCAL teams because only 1 (Bellarmine Prep) has the population to qualify and they're in the Open Finals. In D2, Vassdiddy's squad is in the finals vs one of the best public schools of the last few decades in our section. In D3, my alma mater is playing the WCAL's 6th best team and is a huge underdog. D4 is WCAL-free, but has two private schools in the finals. There's no where else in CA that has an equivalent to this, as I know understand it. Yep its a joke. Serra just won the cif championship last night. Two private schools playing each other. I wish CIF would wake up and make up a private only league.
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Post by mattharris75 on Dec 1, 2012 19:52:40 GMT -6
In Alabama there is a private school association with about 40 member schools. Additionally, many private schools play in the public school association, but with a multiplier in place, something like 1.3 for every kid. This forces the private schools to play up to negate the recruiting advantage. Private schools are very competitive in many sports, but certainly do not dominate football like the OP mentioned. The multiplier in Alabama is 1.35. I coach at a private school in Alabama, and we're playing up a classification because of it. And we don't recruit, which puts us at a disadvantage. However, there is another private school in our region that does recruit, and they will be playing for the state championship next week (and are likely to win it). Of the 6 classifications and 12 teams in the Alabama (AHSAA) state finals ths year, 2 of them are private schools, and odds are 1 of the 6 championships will go to a private school. In addition to the multiplier the transfer rules in Alabama are pretty tough. If a kid transfers to a private school in an 'overlapping' school zone (city limits for private schools), he has to sit out a year, period. None of this 30 day stuff...
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Post by John Knight on Dec 2, 2012 13:52:37 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Dec 2, 2012 13:54:24 GMT -6
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Post by wvcoach on Dec 2, 2012 18:59:56 GMT -6
There are only a handful of private schools in West Virginia and they don't even all play football, but one school gets enough criticism to overshadow that small number. They've played in the state championship (which is hosted by their home stadium, coincidentally) nine times since 2000, losing only once. I don't know if they recruit or not, but they get crap every year from other Class A schools. Usually, these are schools that don't have much chance at a state title regardless.
That team actually lost in the first round this year, and another private school from the same region played last night in their third final since 2008. They lost 43-42 in overtime, one of the best football games I've ever seen. I figure people will start going off about that school soon.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 2, 2012 19:36:00 GMT -6
As I asked in the thread on "dominant schools"--if the private schools were removed from the equation, would you have more "diversity" in football powers...OR would it just now be the same publics winning year after year as opposed to the same privates?
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Post by John Knight on Dec 4, 2012 14:04:43 GMT -6
Plus they can play in lower divisions because they don't have to count DEAD WOOD kids that get all Fs and couldn't play if they wanted to. We have over 250 boys in our school but only 45 are on the football team grades 9-12 and that is mostly because there are 200 boys that don't want to come to school everyday and work much less stay after and work hard for 3 hours.
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Post by John Knight on Dec 4, 2012 18:38:58 GMT -6
Disciplined hard working smart kids with decent athletic ability are what most of us call studs. Add in a couple of d1 athletes and you got yourself a small school state champion!
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