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Post by coachmathis on May 22, 2007 10:10:59 GMT -6
Is LeBron trully a superstar? I know everyone is probably going to say that's a non-brainer, but is it? I coach football but I am a basketball 1st guy. I've watched LeBron since he has been in the NBA and he seems to quite often struggle or not be able to come up with the big play at the end of game. I know he made a shot last year against the Wiz(he clearly traveled) and he has made game winning shots, but so many times he screws it up or passes it to someone else. I guess it would depend on what you consider a superstart to be. I consider it to be someone who down the stretch we are going to and he is either going to win it for me or lose it for me.Last night, I think every hall of fame basketball player takes that lay-up instead of passing the ball. A superstar takes that shot because simply put THAT'S HIS JOB OR WHY HE IS PAID THE BIG BUCKS! Im not saying that it was a bad play but as Kenny Smith said, that is a pass you make in the 2nd or 3rd quarter not with the last shot and the game on the line. Im not against LeBron because he is trully a special player but I am starting to think that in the NBA if you score points they consider you a superstar. Everyone knows that in order to be a superstar in any sport there has to be a certain amount of selfishness from that player. As Charles Barkley said, when the game is only the line, the only thing I see is me and the rim.
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Post by wildcat on May 22, 2007 10:26:25 GMT -6
I think it is unfair to criticize James for what happened last night...
Ask yourself this question...if Marshall sinks that 3 (the guy knocked down 6 of them the previous night), is James' decision even an issue?
The point is, whether James shoots or passes, the ball WAS in his hands...the fact that he didn't take that last shot does not negate the fact that he is the man on that team that will be making tough decisions in a tight situation.
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Post by kboyd on May 22, 2007 10:52:19 GMT -6
I like the fact that he head the vision and presence of mind to see a wide open 3-shot for the win while having 2 guys closing on him. I applaud the fact that he went for the hard decision for a shot to win the game. Like Wildcat says, if Marshall makes the wide open shot, everything looks great. Scoring is a big part of the game but look at 2-time MVP Steve Nash (yeah, I have to bring up a fellow Canuck) and his play-making ability.
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Post by kloranc on May 22, 2007 11:16:40 GMT -6
I don't know. Did he have over 2,000 yds. of rushing last year?
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Post by hawkfan on May 22, 2007 11:31:34 GMT -6
I agree with the above posts. If Marshall makes the shot, are we looking at it differently?
And, going beyond just the final play, James did just miss a triple double. I think he was one assist short. But he had 10 points, 11 rebounds (?), and 9 assists.
But he has been criticized in the past for being too unselfish. And while it looked like he had a layup, it would have been a highly contested shot. How many guys did Marshall have in his face on that 3? Better yet, how many guys were within 15 feet of Marshall when he shot it?
You'd like more scoring out of your star, but if Cleveland stayed in it with James scoring only 10 points and Marshall MAKES that shot, Detroit would have to feel really horrible about that game 1. As it is, they still can't be totally confident because I don't know that they'll be able to keep James down the whole series, with as much as he handles the ball for the Cavs.
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Post by Yash on May 22, 2007 11:43:19 GMT -6
Before this year, when peyton manning wasn't winning the big games the same questions were asked. Well, now hes got a ring and everyone shut up. It took peyton 8 years, lebron is only in year 4, jordan didn't win his first in 4 years either. Give him time.
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Post by coachmathis on May 22, 2007 14:26:47 GMT -6
Before this year, when peyton manning wasn't winning the big games the same questions were asked. Well, now hes got a ring and everyone shut up. It took peyton 8 years, lebron is only in year 4, jordan didn't win his first in 4 years either. Give him time. It's not about winning or losing. This is about whether James finishes the way, IMO, a superstar should. I don't think he did last night and I don't think he does on a regular basis. When it comes to Peyton, no one ever said he didnt have talent or he wasn't a great player. As far as Jordan, he was big down the stretch when he was young. No matter how you look at it James doesn't appear to be a big time player down the stretch. I think it is unfair to criticize James for what happened last night... "Ask yourself this question...if Marshall sinks that 3 (the guy knocked down 6 of them the previous night), is James' decision even an issue? The point is, whether James shoots or passes, the ball WAS in his hands...the fact that he didn't take that last shot does not negate the fact that he is the man on that team that will be making tough decisions in a tight situation. " It would still be an issue because I feel that he has to take that shot in that situation. I he were a point guard I would say that it didn't matter if he shot or passed the ball, but he isn't. His job is to score. When the game is on the line they aren't drawing up plays for other people to score or for him to get others the ball, it's drawn up for LeBron to get the ball and score. In football if it's the last play, you aren't going to call a play for a half way decent guy to get the ball, you are going to call something to get the ball into the hands of your best player. If it's a pass and your best guy is covered and another is wide open you will take it, but if you had it ur way you want it in your playmakers hands, so it does matter whether or not he shoots or passes. "I like the fact that he head the vision and presence of mind to see a wide open 3-shot for the win while having 2 guys closing on him. I applaud the fact that he went for the hard decision for a shot to win the game. Like Wildcat says, if Marshall makes the wide open shot, everything looks great. Scoring is a big part of the game but look at 2-time MVP Steve Nash (yeah, I have to bring up a fellow Canuck) and his play-making ability." True, it is good that he has that vision, but in that situation he has to take the shot because, again, his job is to score not to be a passer. The comparisons to Steve Nash are out of context. Steve Nash is a passer 1st and a scorer second, his job is to get others easy shots, not to score himself. You don't here people saying well we wanna make Nash a passer. No you want to make him a scorer because that is not what he does best and that is not what he is primarily paid to do. LeBron is paid to score,in particular when he team needs a basket. "I agree with the above posts. If Marshall makes the shot, are we looking at it differently? And, going beyond just the final play, James did just miss a triple double. I think he was one assist short. But he had 10 points, 11 rebounds (?), and 9 assists. But he has been criticized in the past for being too unselfish. And while it looked like he had a layup, it would have been a highly contested shot. How many guys did Marshall have in his face on that 3? Better yet, how many guys were within 15 feet of Marshall when he shot it? You'd like more scoring out of your star, but if Cleveland stayed in it with James scoring only 10 points and Marshall MAKES that shot, Detroit would have to feel really horrible about that game 1. As it is, they still can't be totally confident because I don't know that they'll be able to keep James down the whole series, with as much as he handles the ball for the Cavs."" The rebounds and assists were great but I can guarantee you that if he has another game of 10 points the Cavs will get beat by 20. I don't care if he put a triple double with that same line but including one more assist, the Cavs will have no chance. The Pistons did not play well last night. They had 11 TO's at the half. It would have been a contested shot by Prince, Wallace was late and not in position to help. LeBron is 6'8 240 and jumps out of the gym and when he gets a fairly clear path to the paint like that, unless he is dropping off for a dunk he has to take the shot. Doesn't matter how many people Marshall had in his face, there is a reason he comes off of the bench and there is a reason that the play was not drawn up for him. You don't give a lay-up in that situation for a 3 pointer. Im sure any coach would want his guy to take his chances at either getting a layup or getting fouled as opposed to kicking the ball out for a three. Marshalls not a sharp shooter, hes not Jason Kapono.
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Post by khalfie on May 22, 2007 16:08:24 GMT -6
I didn't read the most of the post ahead of this one...
Because I can't believe the question is even being asked!
No one... and I mean NO ONE... has had more hype and hoopla, about them, before they hit the NBA, than LeBron James... the crazy thing is... he's met the HYPE... he is everything, everyone thought he could be... and even then, those expectations were outrageous!
Now... because he's met those outrageous expectations, in his rookie and sophomore years, as a 18 and 19 year old... now everyone wants him to win championships...
OMG... what does this kid have to do, to get some recognition?
I guess its his fault... in a society that always wants more... he does everything that's asked, so fans ask for more!
Is Lebron James a Supserstar... did Detroit triple team him? Then yes, he's a supserstar!
Should he have taken the last shot? Yeah... that's what superstars do... they are selfish... they want the glory... be damned with whats best for the TEAM... LeBron did what was best for the TEAM... and now we question if he's a superstar... wow!
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Post by cqmiller on May 22, 2007 16:51:44 GMT -6
Play for the Win on the road, and the tie at Home...
I thought he made a good decision... If he had scored, it would have been with about 5 seconds left, and the Pistons would have won the game anyway...the pass ate more time and gave them a chance to win.
And if Marshall hits the shot, we are talking about how GREAT Labron's first game EVER in the Conference finals was a triple double, with his final assist coming on the game winning shot, as he leads his team to an upset victory ON THE ROAD against the heavily favored Pistons team that has been in the CF for the last 5 years.
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Post by coachpoe on May 22, 2007 17:20:44 GMT -6
Game 6 against Phoenix in the 1993 NBA finals who hits the last shot? Not Jordan but John Paxton. The superstar has to make the best decisions for the team and that is what James did. He put the Cavs in position to win the game. James is only what 22 or 23? He has plenty of time to become a champion, but he is clearly a superstar.
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Post by touchdowng on May 22, 2007 22:26:15 GMT -6
no offense guys but isn't this a FOOTBALL site? I do everything I can to not watch NBA basketball. Love the college game but the NBA is entertainment. Period.
Maybe I'm old school, but let's keep it pure.
PS LeBron would have been an all-pro TE. LOL
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Post by briangilbert on May 22, 2007 22:46:18 GMT -6
Ok first off, I'm from Chicago and I now live in the Cleveland Area...
And in 1993 in Game 6 it was John PAXSON not Paxton. Paxton is an actor (Bill). Also it was not MJ who threw the pass to Paxson, rather it was Horace Grant technically.
The question is rhetorical, of course Lebron James is a superstar. I don't think it will ever be fair to compare any of today's superstars to those of the 1980's for a couple of reasons.
#1 The league is watered down with how many extra teams they have added #2 Hand checking is no longer allowed...Imagine MJ if people weren't allowed to touch him! #3 Because of rule changes and the watering down of the league the game in my opinion is subpar to what it was prior to all the expansion.
I think the owners personally have ruined professional sports by giving out these large contracts. NBA games are not fun to see in person when you consider how much money it costs to attend a game. The atmosphere is geared to accomadate the upper middle class. And with how watered down the league has become, I have become very disinterested in the game.
All professional sports face this problem, but the NFL succeeds because the season is only 16 games (8 home games), so you don't mind shelling out the money.
Back to the Pass
Of course he did the right thing, but what we should be talking about is how bad the Eastern Conference is, not Bron's decision.
Heck the 1992 NY Knicks could probably have swept through the post season and they were I believe a 4 seed back in 1992. THE NBA needs to disband 6-8 teams, some markets just do not need the NBA.
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Post by touchdowng on May 22, 2007 22:58:51 GMT -6
no offense guys but isn't this a FOOTBALL site? I do everything I can to not watch NBA basketball. Love the college game but the NBA is entertainment. Period.
Maybe I'm old school, but let's keep it pure.
PS LeBron would have been an all-pro TE. LOL
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Post by briangilbert on May 23, 2007 0:03:05 GMT -6
Lebron James was an All State WR his SO. and JR. seasons respectively at St Vincent St Mary HS in Akron. I don't think he'd be a TE if he stuck with it, I think he'd be a bigger version of Calvin Johnson... (GULP)
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Post by coachcb on May 23, 2007 5:56:13 GMT -6
I hate hockey.
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Post by coachmathis on May 23, 2007 7:41:50 GMT -6
I didn't read the most of the post ahead of this one... Because I can't believe the question is even being asked! No one... and I mean NO ONE... has had more hype and hoopla, about them, before they hit the NBA, than LeBron James... the crazy thing is... he's met the HYPE... he is everything, everyone thought he could be... and even then, those expectations were outrageous! Now... because he's met those outrageous expectations, in his rookie and sophomore years, as a 18 and 19 year old... now everyone wants him to win championships... OMG... what does this kid have to do, to get some recognition? I guess its his fault... in a society that always wants more... he does everything that's asked, so fans ask for more! Is Lebron James a Supserstar... did Detroit triple team him? Then yes, he's a supserstar! Should he have taken the last shot? Yeah... that's what superstars do... they are selfish... they want the glory... be damned with whats best for the TEAM... LeBron did what was best for the TEAM... and now we question if he's a superstar... wow! Maybe I didn't pose the question in the correct form, but I am not saying that LeBron has to win a championship right now or that he has not been every bit as good as advertised. First of all unless you watch a different NBA than I do, there is no one in the NBA he gets triple teamed on a regular basis or a coach who designs to triple team a player. The best thing for Cleveland in the clutch like that is to have LeBron James taking a layup or a shot in the paint, not a journeyman NBA player taking a 3! It's not just about this one play, James defers to others in the clutch on a somewhat regular basis(not to say that he has never delievered scoring in the clutch) Khalfie, I would like to think that you are a casual NBA fan and not a basketball coach because any basketball coach that has seen the Cavs play know that the best thing for the Cavs is for LeBron to score! .My whole point is that this is a consisten pattern where LeBron defers to someone else in the clutch. Cqmiller, he didn't play great, he played decent at best. His stat line is great if you are Jason Kidd. The rebounds and assists are great but he has to score. Like I said before, if this is such a great game for LeBron, then I want one of you guys who said that he played great to step up and say that the Cavs will win this series if LeBron plays like that every night and gets the same exact stat line. If he produces offensively like he is supposed to they when by 10 points or more. As far as the Jordan to Paxson or even the Jordan to Kerr in game 1 that year against Utah (which noone mentioned) were great plays, but we all remember Jordan for making the shots down the stretch and to win games, HIS JOB, as opposed to passing it to someone to make a shot. There are times when it only makes sense to make the pass, that was not one of those times for LeBron. IMO it was not a bad pass, it was merely a situation where LeBron being the man, should have taking the shot that he had. As a basketball coach, I am willing to bet that 90 % or more would say give me LeBron and the shot in the paint over the wide open Marshall three. He is trully a great player, but not yet a great finisher. I guarantee you that Kobe Bryant( a player that I am not a fan of but as a basketball coach I admire his ability and desire to finish close games) would have taking that shot
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on May 23, 2007 8:10:08 GMT -6
How do you feel about lacrosse, coach?
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Post by knighter on May 23, 2007 8:18:25 GMT -6
Anyone remember the best player in basketball Michael Jordan kicking the ball out to Steve Kerr or John Paxson who hit a shot to win? Can't believe we are even discussing this.
Also gulity of not reading all posts, as someone has pointed out Paxson's game winner.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 23, 2007 8:39:46 GMT -6
Mathis... Lebron James is not Jordan or Kobe. He is Magic with a better jump shot and better hops. Magic makes that same pass.
If his teammates make the shots, we are discussing the great composure and floor vision of someone so young.
football anyone
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 23, 2007 8:43:24 GMT -6
Lebron-
STUD SUPERSTAR WHATEVER...HE'S THE MAN
If "He doesn't fit the role of a superstar" it is because (unlike the rest of these idiots) he keeps his yap shut to the media, he doesn't swing at people for knocking his teammate to the ground, and he doesn't jump into the crowd to start fights with some loser fan- He went for the win, showing trust in his teammate, and they fell short.
Bottom line- CLASS ACT, TEAM PLAYER, SUPER TALENTED, and still a YOUNG KID=SUPERSTAR
there should be no arguement...
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Post by briangilbert on May 23, 2007 9:39:25 GMT -6
Again as a Bulls fan It was Horace Grant.... NOT Michael "Air" Jordan who literally dished to Paxson for the game winner against the Suns. Jordan brought it up the court, hit Pippen who flashed up to the top of the key, who hit Grant, who swung it back out to Paxson. Jordan never though passed the ball inside of 3 seconds (The Kerr moment either). If MJ has the ball down inside like that, you can bet the ball is going into that hoop some way or another.
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Post by wingt74 on May 23, 2007 13:35:26 GMT -6
Just want to put my 2 cents in here.
Yes
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Post by kloranc on May 23, 2007 14:04:02 GMT -6
Put him on the protein shakes and he will be an All-Pro Defensive End!
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Post by touchdowng on May 23, 2007 17:09:47 GMT -6
I can't believe I'm going to the dark side and being involved in this discussion..... OK. King James would not be a TE and now I know he was a WR in H.S. I'd put him in at QB and he'd at least make the cover of SI as the NEW BREED of Quarterback.
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Post by khalfie on May 24, 2007 21:32:41 GMT -6
Damn that Lebron... he should have passed it!
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Post by kloranc on May 24, 2007 21:50:05 GMT -6
Apparently the NBA officials don't think he is a superstar because he definitely got fouled on the last shot of game 2.
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Post by robbeisel on Jun 18, 2007 12:11:09 GMT -6
David Stern was the star of these finals when he suspended Amare an Diaw. The suns are the real 2007 World Champs.
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Post by lukethadrifter on Jun 18, 2007 16:03:01 GMT -6
LeBron would be considered a "superstar" if he makes everyone around him better - answer that question for yourself - obviously he is a great player, but in the history of the game, I don't think he can wear the jock of the great ones such as Jordan, Magic, and Bird (to name a few) - he doesn't have the total game, especially ball handling - just my 2 cents - Luke
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Post by tog on Jun 18, 2007 20:43:22 GMT -6
i just see him and think
what a waste
he would be an all world wr or qb
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2007 17:58:22 GMT -6
Let's not forget he's just now 22. What had Michael Jordan accomplished after only four years in the league?
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