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Post by davecisar on Oct 14, 2007 7:03:15 GMT -6
Good/Bad coaches probably have something to do with talent vs Wins/Losses production. Look at Navy and the kids they get that no one else wants and what they do with them. Add in the fact those kids have so many other obligations not to mention a summer camp where most of them lose 20-40 pounds etc.
In the end very poor talent teams that over produce on wins, the coaches get noticed. Look at Mangino at KU, no kids and they have been competitive, this year they look pretty descent. Even without this year Big 12 Coaches know he is one of the best in the league. Totally outcoaches NUs Callahan nearly every time they meet.
Contrast that with a Nebraska with all those top 10 recruiting classes last 4 years Defensive starters are an average 3.7 Rivals stars, almost totally injury free and theyve given up over 40 points in 4 of the last 5 games. In 4 of those games, the lead running back for the opponent had a carreer best day (Savage had 212 yesterday) Contrast that with Osbornes usual #20-#35 ranked classes and all the home grown walk-ons no one wanted and going 62-3 in one stretch hmm, I wonder who the better coach was/is? Pretty stark contrast. Obviously Osbornes group did a nice job of developing players and had the right schemes in place for the talent they had and the opponents they faced. He was a master game planner, strategist and play caller. On offense, not much better against the nations 114th ranked pass defense yesterday, NU had 38 yards passing going into the 4th quarter LOL.
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Post by khalfie on Oct 14, 2007 7:52:20 GMT -6
I think harbaugh is now clearly the front runner for that job in ann arbor. JMO. Can Harabaugh go home? Didn't he make some very disparaging remarks towards UM? However, winning does cure everything... He'd probably have to send Standford to a bowl, before the Maize would forgive him.
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Post by khalfie on Oct 14, 2007 8:01:38 GMT -6
Also, just throwing this out to all those who use the phrase "Yeah, but he is winning with _____ 's (previous coach) players." Wouldn't that also mean that he is LOSING with those players too. I Just wonder where the consistency is. You have to keep it in context... The phrase is utilized to determine a coaches value. Recruiting is a huge factor in a coaches value. In the case of Zook and even Willingham, many would argue they didn't get a chance to be evaluated with their players... Once their players matured, they were shown the door, and some pretty good coaches took an experienced skill set, and performed admirably. However, the real value of those coaches can only be determined once they prove that they can regenerate that skill set. Urb has never been any where more than 2 years... None of the Freshmen and Sophomores he recruited have been coached by him as Juniors and Seniors. This is the first year Weis has Juniors that he recruited... That's all that's being stated when speaking to winniing with other's players. When a coach is fired prematurely, not being able to coach his guys, as they mature... that's when another man's accomplishments become questioned. Similar to John Gruden, who step in to a Super Bowl Contender, built under Dungy's tutorledge... and up until recently, have been butt ugly. Losing with others players... well that is supposed to happen... its why you are hired... but, if the other coach had the program going in the right direction, but isn't given any credit for the turn around, and then the new guy gets all the credit... well... that's when we fans, point out the miscarriage in justice.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 14, 2007 8:50:08 GMT -6
Also, just throwing this out to all those who use the phrase "Yeah, but he is winning with _____ 's (previous coach) players." Wouldn't that also mean that he is LOSING with those players too. I Just wonder where the consistency is. You have to keep it in context... The phrase is utilized to determine a coaches value. Recruiting is a huge factor in a coaches value. In the case of Zook and even Willingham, many would argue they didn't get a chance to be evaluated with their players... Once their players matured, they were shown the door, and some pretty good coaches took an experienced skill set, and performed admirably. However, the real value of those coaches can only be determined once they prove that they can regenerate that skill set. Urb has never been any where more than 2 years... None of the Freshmen and Sophomores he recruited have been coached by him as Juniors and Seniors. This is the first year Weis has Juniors that he recruited... That's all that's being stated when speaking to winniing with other's players. When a coach is fired prematurely, not being able to coach his guys, as they mature... that's when another man's accomplishments become questioned. Similar to John Gruden, who step in to a Super Bowl Contender, built under Dungy's tutorledge... and up until recently, have been butt ugly. Losing with others players... well that is supposed to happen... its why you are hired... but, if the other coach had the program going in the right direction, but isn't given any credit for the turn around, and then the new guy gets all the credit... well... that's when we fans, point out the miscarriage in justice. The AMAZING thing about Meyer is he wins with his system which is entirely different than the system the kids were recruited for in the teams he took over. Pretty great coaching to make your round system fit the square holes of the previous coaching regimes players. Just wait until he actually has a group of kids that actually were recruited to fit his unique system. I try and learn from the successful, not trying to be that crab in the bottom of the pot that grabs his fellow crab that is on the rim of the pot about to escape. ( an example some of my ghetto friends use to descibe the jealous negative "leadership" of many losers in their community)
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 14, 2007 8:54:46 GMT -6
Khalfie--I realize what you are saying, I am saying there is another way to look at it. As I mentioned often when a new coach is winning, many chime in "Oh, but he is winning with ______'s players. It isn't his coaching". BUT WHEN HE LOSES.. it is never ________'s players didn't get it done, it is always "he is a bad coach. "
Thats all I am saying, just an interesting spin on the current situation down here
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Post by davecisar on Oct 14, 2007 9:08:33 GMT -6
Khalfie--I realize what you are saying, I am saying there is another way to look at it. As I mentioned often when a new coach is winning, many chime in "Oh, but he is winning with ______'s players. It isn't his coaching". BUT WHEN HE LOSES.. it is never ________'s players didn't get it done, it is always "he is a bad coach. " Thats all I am saying, just an interesting spin on the current situation down here Im not sure thats entirely true. Here in Nebraska NU fans gave Callahan a total free pass his first 2 years because these were not his kids. Very understanding even though his losing season broke a string of over 40+ years of consecutive winning seasons and 35+ years of consecutive Bowl Games. Last year 3rd year, very few grumblings, year 4 and hes going out the door, his kids, his system, highly touted recruits, few injuries etc etc and they are getting BLOWN out, dominated. Most fans at least the ones around here understood the new guy wouldnt win his first year or two.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 14, 2007 10:18:36 GMT -6
Dave--But that is a slightly different situation. I think most fans are very understanding in the situations where the previous coach is fired. I am talking about situations where the previous coach leaves for "bigger and better" things.
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Post by fbdoc on Oct 14, 2007 10:30:12 GMT -6
I think Rich Brooks needs to be on a few more lists after last night's win. A truly phenomenal job of building the Kentucky program.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 14, 2007 12:07:56 GMT -6
Oh I see, it only matters when a coach is winning, if they are losing its the jimmies and joes. You think very highly of yourself, don't you? Why do you constantly want to discredit contributions of players to winning football games? I really feel you want people to say coaching is more important than players because it somehow serves your ego. You want people to think of you as the reason for anything your team accomplishes. You want people to think you are a great mastermind. Any coach would be nothing without their players. Well maybe they would be great in theory. Yes, im very confident in my coaching ability, sue me. I never discredit the players, they get the credit when we win, the staff takes the responsibility when we dont. I am a great mastermind, isnt it obvious to you yet??? Out of curiosity are you a football coach? what is your teams record? what is your career record as a coach ? if coaching doesnt matter why are you here? honestly, what was the point of your post? seems more like a tantrum than being part of an adult discussion to me.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 14, 2007 12:26:41 GMT -6
Good/Bad coaches probably have something to do with talent vs Wins/Losses production. Look at Navy and the kids they get that no one else wants and what they do with them. Add in the fact those kids have so many other obligations not to mention a summer camp where most of them lose 20-40 pounds etc. In the end very poor talent teams that over produce on wins, the coaches get noticed. Look at Mangino at KU, no kids and they have been competitive, this year they look pretty descent. Even without this year Big 12 Coaches know he is one of the best in the league. Totally outcoaches NUs Callahan nearly every time they meet. Contrast that with a Nebraska with all those top 10 recruiting classes last 4 years Defensive starters are an average 3.7 Rivals stars, almost totally injury free and theyve given up over 40 points in 4 of the last 5 games. In 4 of those games, the lead running back for the opponent had a carreer best day (Savage had 212 yesterday) Contrast that with Osbornes usual #20-#35 ranked classes and all the home grown walk-ons no one wanted and going 62-3 in one stretch hmm, I wonder who the better coach was/is? Pretty stark contrast. Obviously Osbornes group did a nice job of developing players and had the right schemes in place for the talent they had and the opponents they faced. He was a master game planner, strategist and play caller. On offense, not much better against the nations 114th ranked pass defense yesterday, NU had 38 yards passing going into the 4th quarter LOL. cmon dave, coaching doesnt matter, any group of players can just take the field and if they have more talent they win every time, if they have less talent they lose every time. you should know that, youve been reading here long enough to know this. seriously, theres a school I know of that has , i dunno 12 straight losing seasons maybe with an avg margin of defeat probably being 30 plus points... and they have the old excuse that its the kids. appears that they dont bother to put the kids on a wt program, speed program or choose a system of xs and os that fits their talent. TO THEM coaching doesnt matter...that way they dont have to accept any responsibility for their terrible seasons every year, just blame it on the kids. NO doubt coaches go thru some tough seasons...but HOW MANY is the question...sooner or later the coach has to look in the mirror and ask "is it me?"
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Post by davecisar on Oct 14, 2007 12:45:17 GMT -6
Steve,
You havent been to an NU game lately LOL and you wont see them back on TV anytime in the near future. Makes for bad TV unless youre one of those train wreck lovers that like seeing the horrible singer on American Idol tank it etc.
Watching KUs Mangino play Callahans much better talented NU teams is like watching a master fiddler playing his fiddle. A thing of beauty, unless you're an NU fan. See exact repeat when Ron Princes 2nd K-State team or even Dan Hawkins 2nd year CU team comes to town. How do those guys turn it around with signature wins and have a REAL identity with worse players and facitilites, while NU withers with a now 114th ranked defense and an offense that didnt score a TD in 7 straight quarters against defenses ranked 80+? WOW! There's bad coaching and then there is NU coaching in 2007 an entire new level. Twice yesterday played defensive downs with 10 on the field ( Got a good stop on one down leding the guy next to me to plead out loud to play with 10). But on a positive note unlike the past several games of multiple delay of game calls ( got to love that West Coast Offense with all the different player packages that cant get onto the field fast enough, plays called in very late and the very long play call strings) and the burned timeouts because we are running out of time yet again etc. Pee Wee football stuff most guys learn at age 10-11. College Football is not Pro football, Callahan cant seem to figure that one out. High school ball isnt college ball and youth ball isnt High School ball etc.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 14, 2007 16:43:06 GMT -6
cmon dave, coaching doesnt matter, any group of players can just take the field and if they have more talent they win every time, if they have less talent they lose every time. you should know that, youve been reading here long enough to know this. If someone has a problem with this board, they may email and we can set up a time to discuss these matters on the phone. I do not believe we are forcing people to be a part of this forum. Also, THIS IS THE STUPIDEST TOPIC EVER!!!!. Let it go. there is so much involved in winning that to place the responsibility on ONE SINGLE FACTOR is ludicrous. I really think we should move on ....
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kw
Freshmen Member
Posts: 87
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Post by kw on Oct 14, 2007 16:53:57 GMT -6
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Oct 14, 2007 17:12:46 GMT -6
Yes, im very confident in my coaching ability, sue me. I never discredit the players, they get the credit when we win, the staff takes the responsibility when we dont. I am a great mastermind, isnt it obvious to you yet??? Out of curiosity are you a football coach? what is your teams record? what is your career record as a coach ? if coaching doesnt matter why are you here? honestly, what was the point of your post? seems more like a tantrum than being part of an adult discussion to me. I don't think I am throwing a tantrum at all. I am actually completely calm as I write this. I am just a poster who is tired of you making every single topic into something that serves your agenda. It seems to me, and I don't think I am alone, that your number one agenda is to prove the world you the end all be all of football. By the way, yes I am a football coach. I have won more games than I lost in my coaching career. Probably around 70%, but I am not sure without doing the numbers. I am sure you could tell me your percentage to 5 decimal places. That is just not my thing.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 15, 2007 5:58:18 GMT -6
If you dont like my posts then dont read them. You seem to be looking for a fight .Seems to me that you are the one with an agenda. 70% winning percentage is good, so you have had better talent then 70% of your oponnents?
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Post by tog on Oct 15, 2007 6:50:51 GMT -6
enough
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