|
Post by 19delta on May 3, 2012 11:52:25 GMT -6
The other issue with the NFL is that those guys are racking up years and years of these hits. Let's take Mike Webster, whose family has gone after the NFL. He played 16 years NFL, 4 years college, 4 high school, plus JH and little league. That is close to or more than 30 years of taking hits. Average HS kids are taking a risk but not the same as NFL players. I realize we live in a litigious society but how is his decision to play football the fault of the NFL? He played 4 years of HS and 4 years of college so the assumption is that he got an education and was an adult and therefore should have sound enough reasoning to understand that playing the sport is dangerous. Should a boxer who has brain damage be able to sue the governing body or the glove manufacturer? Is it NASCARs fault when a driver chooses to get behind the wheel, race at insane speeds, crashes and dies? There IS personal responsibility and personal will in all of this. Do I wish harm on anyone? Absolutely not...but I also don't rush to go on a witchhunt to find someone to blame anytime something bad happens. The argument will be made that the NFL had a responsibility to provide full disclosure about the long-term health risks to players. I think there is some merit to that, at least for the guys that played in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. But, with what the public knows about the game now...the dangers and health risks involved...I agree with you that there is clearly an "assumed risk" for those who play the game now. It's kind of like anyone who started smoking in the last 20 years and got cancer...that is hardly a "tragedy". And that is really what it should come down to...if you play football, you will probably be fine...you probably won't develop any of these horrifying and debilitating medical conditions. But there is a chance that you could. And if you make the decision to play the game, you assume that risk.
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 3, 2012 11:54:10 GMT -6
how the game will be changed
1. Kickoffs will be eliminated. the ball will be placed on the 20 yd line.
2. Defensive line will be moved off the ball by 1 yd like they have in Canada.
3. baseline concussion tests possibly genetic testing to see who is more susceptible.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on May 3, 2012 12:00:56 GMT -6
how the game will be changed 1. Kickoffs will be eliminated. the ball will be placed on the 20 yd line. 2. Defensive line will be moved off the ball by 1 yd like they have in Canada. 3. baseline concussion tests possibly genetic testing to see who is more susceptible. I think it might be even more dramatic than that. Think about what happened to football after Teddy Roosevelt got involved with it over 100 years ago regarding the deaths of several players. The game that resulted was fundamentally different than the game it was. I know that a lot of people (including myself) got really defensive regarding most of Kurt Bryan's ideas about changing the game largely due to "player safety", but now, looking back, he may have been pretty prophetic. I'm not saying that the A-11 is the "future of football" (sorry, Kurt!), but I do believe that, over time, rules changes in the name of "player safety" will result in a game that is fundamentally different than the game played today.
|
|
|
Post by tog on May 3, 2012 12:06:59 GMT -6
dline off the ball would make the collisions between linemen more physical
spreading everything out a-11 style would increase the distance/speed of the run up on hits as well
|
|
|
Post by hback41 on May 3, 2012 12:15:56 GMT -6
I was simply contrasting the injuries suffered by a guy who played 30 years of football with a high school player. He played 240+ NFL games. Our kids will play maybe 50 HS games in their 4 years, if their team is a playoff team. Big difference. That was my point.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on May 3, 2012 12:22:32 GMT -6
dline off the ball would make the collisions between linemen more physical spreading everything out a-11 style would increase the distance/speed of the run up on hits as well You missed the point completely. What I was saying is that if the game continues to be changed to accommodate "player safety", the game won't be football any more, regardless of the form it eventually takes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 3, 2012 12:30:56 GMT -6
And the handwringer nannystaters will have succeeded. Life is hard. I can get hit by a truck crossing the street. Therefore I choose to never cross a street again? The day football dies, is the day this country dies. Maybe we can be a dominant world power with our most radical "competitive" cheer teams? Funny you mention cheerleading. Kids are actually much more likely to get injured from cheerleading than football or even martial arts. But it's not governed as a "sport" for legal and business reasons. Football is too much a part of the culture. It's being sensationalized now as dangerous, but it's always been dangerous. Even if it does fade behind basketball, soccer, and MMA (demographic trends indicate this may happen in 20 wears), it won't "disappear" anymore than boxing, horse racing, and (to a lesser extent) baseball has--most of their fade had to do with poor oversight or bad business decisions by the elite governing bodies, not concerns over injuries. Americans like to play football, watch football, and talk about football. As long as that's true, the sport will never die.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on May 3, 2012 12:31:26 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 3, 2012 12:44:44 GMT -6
the reason they have the dline off the ball a yard in canada is to allow the offensive lineman a chance to get into a position to protect themselves.
|
|
|
Post by tog on May 3, 2012 12:45:34 GMT -6
dline off the ball would make the collisions between linemen more physical spreading everything out a-11 style would increase the distance/speed of the run up on hits as well You missed the point completely. What I was saying is that if the game continues to be changed to accommodate "player safety", the game won't be football any more, regardless of the form it eventually takes. if they bubble wrap it like they have everything else in our society then I won't coach it anymore I hope I am retired and gone before it happens. Again, I fear for the next generation.
|
|
|
Post by NC1974 on May 3, 2012 12:47:51 GMT -6
And the handwringer nannystaters will have succeeded. Life is hard. I can get hit by a truck crossing the street. Therefore I choose to never cross a street again? The day football dies, is the day this country dies. Maybe we can be a dominant world power with our most radical "competitive" cheer teams? Funny you mention cheerleading. Kids are actually much more likely to get injured from cheerleading than football or even martial arts. But it's not governed as a "sport" for legal and business reasons. Football is too much a part of the culture. It's being sensationalized now as dangerous, but it's always been dangerous. Even if it does fade behind basketball, soccer, and MMA (demographic trends indicate this may happen in 20 wears), it won't "disappear" anymore than boxing, horse racing, and (to a lesser extent) baseball has--most of their fade had to do with poor oversight or bad business decisions by the elite governing bodies, not concerns over injuries. Americans like to play football, watch football, and talk about football. As long as that's true, the sport will never die. I see your point but in the litigious world we live in, all it takes is one big court case to start a domino effect as eluded to in the following article www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7559458/cte-concussion-crisis-economic-look-end-football
|
|
|
Post by NC1974 on May 3, 2012 12:51:48 GMT -6
A quote from the article I linked:
The most plausible route to the death of football starts with liability suits.1 Precollegiate football is already sustaining 90,000 or more concussions each year. If ex-players start winning judgments, insurance companies might cease to insure colleges and high schools against football-related lawsuits. Coaches, team physicians, and referees would become increasingly nervous about their financial exposure in our litigious society. If you are coaching a high school football team, or refereeing a game as a volunteer, it is sobering to think that you could be hit with a $2 million lawsuit at any point in time. A lot of people will see it as easier to just stay away. More and more modern parents will keep their kids out of playing football, and there tends to be a "contagion effect" with such decisions; once some parents have second thoughts, many others follow suit. We have seen such domino effects with the risks of smoking or driving without seatbelts, two unsafe practices that were common in the 1960s but are much rarer today. The end result is that the NFL's feeder system would dry up and advertisers and networks would shy away from associating with the league, owing to adverse publicity and some chance of being named as co-defendants in future lawsuits.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 3, 2012 12:54:45 GMT -6
Regarding actual evolution of the game for player safety reasons, some possibilities that come to mind for me:
1. Enforcing a minimum rest period between plays (say 5-10 seconds) to shorten the game and therefore reduce the number of hits.
2. Paring down the game to 7 on 7 and eliminating most offensive and defensive linemen.
3. Eliminating punts and kickoffs (the NFL is sort of trying to do this, anyway).
4. Different padding technology. I could see "soft" helmets being introduced that would absorb and cushion impacts from the outside ,rather than transfer force to the opposing player's head upon impact.
5. Better training on how to diagnose and treat players who are showing head trauma symptoms at earlier ages.
This would be fundamentally different, but I really don't see the sport disappearing anytime soon. The subconcussive impacts are worrisome, even for high school players, but a lot of it is sensationalized. That people are picking on football when MMA is growing in popularity among the general public and younger generations is ridiculous. Besides, it's not like any of these lawsuits have actually gotten traction, at least AFAIK.
It's sad that Junior Seau's suicide is being blamed on head trauma. That may have influenced it, but by most accounts Seau was a guy who was so obsessed with football that he just didn't know how to do anything else with his life, and he was taught to always be cheerful and hold back on even expressing emotions that might make him seem weak or negative, which probably played a role in his not getting help for what was troubling him. Depression is a horrible thing, but it's not something that's exclusive to football.
What we really need to do as a culture is to stop blaming the game of football every time a former player dies too soon or suffers to adjust to life after their playing days are done, but instead change our culture and mentality to remind our players that's it's ok to be human beings rather than "warriors" who are expected to never feel or express pain. Overcoming adversity is part of the game, but there's a difference between training players to feel that pain (whether physical or emotional) is something to hide vs. telling them to play through it and get appropriate treatment. The NFL, NCAA, and even some high schools make their living off treating players as disposable and that is what needs to stop.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on May 3, 2012 12:54:58 GMT -6
You could bubble wrap everyone on the planet and put them all in padded rooms. Ya know what? Someone would find a way to get hurt!
The game involves blocking and tackling players will always get hurt no matter how much you change it. You accept the risk when you strap it up. I guess the only way to make it 100% safe is to ban the game. Like Tog said I hope I am dead and gone before that days comes.
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 3, 2012 13:04:47 GMT -6
take off the face-masks and go back to leather helmets is what Joe Paterno said should be done if you want to make football safer. tackling would be low and cross body blocks.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on May 3, 2012 13:04:50 GMT -6
how the game will be changed 1. Kickoffs will be eliminated. the ball will be placed on the 20 yd line. 2. Defensive line will be moved off the ball by 1 yd like they have in Canada. 3. baseline concussion tests possibly genetic testing to see who is more susceptible. We already have baseline testing. I thought that it was mandated by the Federation.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on May 3, 2012 13:08:15 GMT -6
how the game will be changed 1. Kickoffs will be eliminated. the ball will be placed on the 20 yd line. 2. Defensive line will be moved off the ball by 1 yd like they have in Canada. 3. baseline concussion tests possibly genetic testing to see who is more susceptible. We already have baseline testing. I thought that it was mandated by the Federation. Some schools around here do it. Most don't.
|
|
|
Post by hback41 on May 3, 2012 13:10:25 GMT -6
One of the first thing mentioned with Seau was that 8 players from the 1994 team have died. Well, 4 died in vehicle accidents and 2 had heart attacks. Odd but not at all related.
Decent article with some good points. However, football does not drive everything on a college campus. Less drinking without football? Really.
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 3, 2012 13:10:31 GMT -6
how the game will be changed 1. Kickoffs will be eliminated. the ball will be placed on the 20 yd line. 2. Defensive line will be moved off the ball by 1 yd like they have in Canada. 3. baseline concussion tests possibly genetic testing to see who is more susceptible. We already have baseline testing. I thought that it was mandated by the Federation. it is not mandatory however.
|
|
|
Post by kellymalzahnjr on May 3, 2012 13:14:36 GMT -6
it is scary to think about but I guess we can all learn the neuances of basketball and transistion our coaching
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 3, 2012 13:48:03 GMT -6
it is scary to think about but I guess we can all learn the neuances of basketball and transistion our coaching back in the day it was no uncommon for the football coach to coach basketball and baseball. you go back to the 1950s even at colleges coaches coached multiple sports.
|
|
|
Post by blb on May 3, 2012 14:14:16 GMT -6
One of my college coaches taught a graduate level Coaching Football class I took.
The first day he said, "Football is in trouble. You'd better be prepared to defend it.
"The colleges and pros are getting out of hand and it's filtering down to the high school rules."
That was 1980.
|
|
|
Post by mrucoach on May 3, 2012 18:42:47 GMT -6
Right now we don't know why Junior Seau took his own life. Sounds like he had some real problems that may have had nothing to do with concussions sustained while playing pro football. My feeling is that the liberal press would LOVE to report that Seau's problems stem from repeated concussions.
I concur with many others on this thread.....there is a huge difference between someone who played pro football for 20?? years and your average high school football player. In our program if a player sustains a head injury he is immediately examined by a trainer and, if concussed, goes thru a rigid series of steps before he can return to action.
My guess is that time will heal all wounds. Every level of play is taking steps to make the game safer. As we all know its a violent game but we as coaches can teach techniques that will make it as safe as possible, and I'm sure most are. Chest to chest tackling, head up, neck bulled, use of arms and shoulders to take the force of hits, using the latest and best equipment, not going overboard with hitting in practice are things that I'm sure most on this board utilize.
For me the best thing to happen in my 5 years as a hc is having our trainer go to away games as well as home games. It allows me to coach when there is injury rather than have to divide my time and possible play a player who shouldn't be in the game.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 3, 2012 19:16:11 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Coach Bennett on May 3, 2012 19:42:13 GMT -6
The more I think about it, the more I side with him...what can we do to ensure the safety of our players? If we do not figure out a way to make our game safer I believe the future of our game is in serious danger....thoughts? To go back to the OP, maybe we ensure the safety of our players by ultimately changing the protective equipment that is used. After all, it's the evolution of equipment that has changed the game of football over time, particularly in perfecting plastics. In rugby, you can't even wear a plastic ankle brace. Why? Because of the "creeping" effect of protective equipment. Ankle brace today, plastic shoulder pad tomorrow, helmets in the future. To me it wouldn't be football but maybe the game ultimately becomes safer by changing plastic to padding. In a town where lots of kids/people have played football and then played rugby, it takes all of about one "football" hit in a rugby match to realize you just can't make contact in rugby like you do in football. As in rugby, I wonder if someday there will be rules like you can't leave your feet to make a tackle and you have to wrap your arms around the ball carrier when tackling?
|
|
|
Post by coachschro on May 3, 2012 20:40:18 GMT -6
In my opinion and based on the research I have studied most of you are missing the point. Its not what happens in games, its not the big collisions, its the repeat blows to the head (subconcussive events). Its that kids start in 2nd grade doing the Oklahoma drill and continue to bash heads for the next 10 to 15 years. We have got to change the way we practice. The NFL already has, most of college has, and now its trickling down to high schools and below...
Whether the media is sensationalizing things or not, when they study these brains and the part that leads to depression and so on has been badly damaged on the frontal lobe, that is fact....jmo
|
|
|
Post by powerfootball71 on May 3, 2012 21:00:44 GMT -6
I was having this conversation with my hc the other day and maybe im alone on this.With all the talk of concussions I some times feel wondering myself if im affected. I haven't played sense 2000 but know between playing oline in hs college and wrestling and a little boxing mma after college i have had a few of them possibly more that were not diagnosed . I feel fine and seem to function ok (besides having fat fingers a lack of knowledge/laziness in using the spell check on the internet) but with all the media focus and in the coaching community I cant help to think about it if I forget something or feel slightly down. If I as a ex player out of the game awhile questing it i cant help but wonder what current players must think.
|
|
|
Post by lochness on May 3, 2012 21:19:05 GMT -6
The question is, for me anyway, how do you want to live. If you want to live having been safe and secure your whole life..being confident that you won't have health problems as a result of playing football (or any other contact sports), then that's fine.
But most people would wither away and "die" if they didn't have the opportunity to be the warrior, to take those risks, to experience the thrills of those activities. It's part of LIVING and feeling alive for a lot of people. Nothing that's worth anything comes without risks. Football falls into that bucket.
|
|
|
Post by NC1974 on May 3, 2012 21:47:17 GMT -6
The question is, for me anyway, how do you want to live. If you want to live having been safe and secure your whole life..being confident that you won't have health problems as a result of playing football (or any other contact sports), then that's fine. But most people would wither away and "die" if they didn't have the opportunity to be the warrior, to take those risks, to experience the thrills of those activities. It's part of LIVING and feeling alive for a lot of people. Nothing that's worth anything comes without risks. Football falls into that bucket. Lochness, I generally agree with you, but the part that concerns me a bit is the age of the kids we coach. For the most part we all coach minors. There is a certain implicit trust that is put in our hands to do everything we can to protect them. Besides football, I've done dozens, if not 100s of unhealthy things to my body from when I was 18 yrs old until the present. If one of those things ever catches up to me, I won't blame anyone but myself...I chose to those things, and had alot of fun doing them. But IF there is conclusive evidence in the future that "subconcussive hits" can lead to brain damage, I don't know how comfortable I will be encouraging 13-17 yr olds to "get after it" and do something that might not just be unhealthy, but might be much more unhealthy than we ever knew in the past. I guess my point is, if an adult wants to take risks, I'm fine with that. it becomes a little more complicated when we're talking about minors.
|
|
|
Post by julien on May 3, 2012 23:23:07 GMT -6
One poster talk about removing helmet and shoulder pads as they do in rugby. That's a huge mistake!
Nowadays every rugby players wear shoulder pads (not the same as football ones obviously but still) and a lot wear a helmet too.
Rugby is becoming really big in France right now. The game is changing really fast because rugby players are now real athletes. They are better, faster, stronger... And so the numbers of injuries grows.
Actually, some pundits here are afraid that rugby will look like football in the upcomming years...
|
|