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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 8:13:25 GMT -6
Everything is relative, IMHO all teams a spectrum of "potential". I have between 12-16 teams each with a unique "potential" based on the unique grouping of kids that team has and the league we place them in. Some teams playing to their fullest potential may mean 5-5 or even in that "perfect storm" 1-8. Others if they dont go 12-0 they arent playing to potential. But its rarely a year after year after year after year "perfect" storm. I would think going from ofer and shutout every game to scoring and moving the ball on everyone would be a big improvement to be proud of. A friend of mine took a team that I think hadnt won a game in 2 years and with the DW they won 2 his first year and consistently moved the ball, scored 3x the points they had in the previous year and squeezed down the blowout numbers, IMHO a great season. Had he stayed Im sure they would have went .500 in year 2 and been playing in the playoffs year 3, it takes some time.
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 20, 2007 8:15:41 GMT -6
Steve, Yeah, I hear ya- and you're right. Now, don't get me wrong we didn't go 14 plays every drive- but to score we knew we needed to- that's just a fact of life when you have a team who can block a counter perfectly, backs fool everyone, have a lane a mile wide to run through and then your speedy counter back gets count from behind by......................... the DT..LOL.. Obviously, we weren't overcoming any penalties, or wasted plays- that'd what would kill darn near every drive..Crazy season. Like I said, I guess some seasons you have to redefine 'success' what i have found from running this thing and from teaching it to hundreds of others...well, if you dont have talent, you cant take many gambles on offense, but you are going to have to gamble on defense to get the ball back. you have to be darned near PERFECT when you have the ball, no offsides, no illegal formations, no illegal motions, no sacks, no blocked punts, no fumbles...got to be very very efficient with perfect execution. emphasis on sustaining those blocks and finishing every run...every foot counts. youll have to be willing to go for it on fourth and 3 inside your own 30 now and again...its not for everyone...i dont gamble on offense (other than fourth downs) but ill gamble like crazy on defense when i dont have the horses...
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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 8:23:12 GMT -6
Obviously its much harder to compete on defense when that stud team spreads you out and isolates your weaker kids "in space".
What the DW helps you do there is take time off the clock. When we play teams like that we use up the entire 25 second clock, we go max slow down and try to get the ball back with special teasm execution, as we know we are not going to be able to stop them all day on defense. Just think of what the score would have been if you would have had a bunch of 3 and out drives that took 1:20 off the clock LOL.
Like Steve said, thats about the only time I gamble a bunch on defense.
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Mar 20, 2007 8:23:30 GMT -6
Right, and one thing that seems to be common with the DW is the illegal motion penalty. I've gotten them in every league I've been in- I watch DW games from all over the country and it seems the teams I've been watching get them as well- I accept it as part of the territory. Sure, I talked to the officials before the game, and they agree that it's not illegal- but I guess in the games sometimes it just looks so weird from other teams that have the long motion across the formation that in the heat of the moment it just looks like we jumped. That didn't happen every game, but it happens- which, with a team of "Franklin the Turtles", in turn kills that drive- most of the time..
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Mar 20, 2007 8:24:51 GMT -6
Dave, I understand what you're saying, and we were proud- but it's tough to not win- the kids want to win..
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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 8:44:13 GMT -6
I watched North Platte play Bellevue in a State Playoff game when Danny Woodhead played for them ( will be the nations all time leading college rusher after this season, Chadron State DII) . North Platte didnt have Woodhead in the DW for that game anyways, maybe because they were playing anopther DW team of maybe because Woodhead was such a stud? NP won in a tight game, Woodhead only had 120-140 yards, in college hes averaging close to 300 these days LOL.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 20, 2007 9:21:36 GMT -6
I watched North Platte play Bellevue in a State Playoff game when Danny Woodhead played for them ( will be the nations all time leading college rusher after this season, Chadron State DII) . North Platte didnt have Woodhead in the DW for that game anyways, maybe because they were playing anopther DW team of maybe because Woodhead was such a stud? NP won in a tight game, Woodhead only had 120-140 yards, in college hes averaging close to 300 these days LOL. Chadron State runs a spread offense with some Pistol. That is the offense that he averages just about 250yards a game. (2700 yards on the season in 13 games). He is a very good back though.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 20, 2007 9:30:27 GMT -6
I would say that there are times when a group of dwers on the forums will work hard to sell a newcomer on the system and all of its glory...and there are times when someone comes in with ideas of dabbling or wanting to be creative and "merge" ideas...and the resounding advice is always DO NOT DO IT. So, I cant totally agree with your post, but I dont disagree with it completely either. For WHATEVER REASON double wingers are very passionate, cultish and nutty... ITS A DOUBLE WING THING, YOU WOULDNT UNDERSTAND. ;D I mean who else would think a game with 60 wedges running over a defense was "awesome!"...yeah, a different breed so Its definitely NOT for everyone. I have worked with guys who always want to "get the ball outside" or are constantly worried about " 8 in the box" and cant seem to "get" the fact that we are scoring a point a minute already and dont need to do anything different. It takes a different mind set to be willing to call power, power, power, power, trap, power power, counter td. go for two, onsides kick...power power power , uh oh, 4th and 3...power power power power trap, counter td. go for two... etc I agree that most DW guys are "all or nothing" type of people (again most NOT all). Like you have said it is more than a scheme, it is a mentality. That being said, I am personally not a fan of 4 yards a cloud of dust and stalling. (aka ball/clock control). I know why people do it, but I am just not a fan of it. I am not a fan of the constant onside kick or the grind it out style. It is simply my difference in philosophy. To me it would be like watching a basketball game with no shot clock and teams just making 100 passes before each shot. Just not how I think the game should be played. Or watching wrestling match where there is no stalling warnings. Or watching a soccer game, well as is. It will work, but it doesn't seem right to me. Lots of things in life work, but aren't the right way, in my opinion. Don't worry, I expect the blasting I will take from this because I have seen what happens when people disagree with this line of thinking, so fire away.
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Post by tog on Mar 20, 2007 9:32:42 GMT -6
we all have opinions
and we all need to be able to poke fun at ourselves some
so
let's keep this civil guys
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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 9:39:15 GMT -6
Chadron State runs a spread offense with some Pistol. That is the offense that he averages just about 250yards a game. (2700 yards on the season in 13 games). He is a very good back though.
[/quote] The 40-50 Clips Ive seen of Chadron never had them in the Pistol or Shotgun of any kind, their passing stats were very low. Got to see some of theoir game vs NWMS. I saw em running Danny in the "I" and some single back two tight end sets. After watching him in HS I thought he was too small to make it even at the DII Level, I was wrong.
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Mar 20, 2007 9:44:34 GMT -6
Tog,
Couldn't agree more- it's fun to just sit back and laugh at ourselves every now and again.. Once I get done crying while watching my games from last year I plan to start laughing again..;-)
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Mar 20, 2007 9:46:37 GMT -6
That being said, I am personally not a fan of 4 yards a cloud of dust and stalling. (aka ball/clock control). Coach: If you are controlling the ball, and scoring, and keeping the other guys from scoring, in what sense is that "stalling"?
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 20, 2007 9:52:21 GMT -6
I would say that there are times when a group of dwers on the forums will work hard to sell a newcomer on the system and all of its glory...and there are times when someone comes in with ideas of dabbling or wanting to be creative and "merge" ideas...and the resounding advice is always DO NOT DO IT. So, I cant totally agree with your post, but I dont disagree with it completely either. For WHATEVER REASON double wingers are very passionate, cultish and nutty... ITS A DOUBLE WING THING, YOU WOULDNT UNDERSTAND. ;D I mean who else would think a game with 60 wedges running over a defense was "awesome!"...yeah, a different breed so Its definitely NOT for everyone. I have worked with guys who always want to "get the ball outside" or are constantly worried about " 8 in the box" and cant seem to "get" the fact that we are scoring a point a minute already and dont need to do anything different. It takes a different mind set to be willing to call power, power, power, power, trap, power power, counter td. go for two, onsides kick...power power power , uh oh, 4th and 3...power power power power trap, counter td. go for two... etc I agree that most DW guys are "all or nothing" type of people (again most NOT all). Like you have said it is more than a scheme, it is a mentality. That being said, I am personally not a fan of 4 yards a cloud of dust and stalling. (aka ball/clock control). I know why people do it, but I am just not a fan of it. I am not a fan of the constant onside kick or the grind it out style. It is simply my difference in philosophy. To me it would be like watching a basketball game with no shot clock and teams just making 100 passes before each shot. Just not how I think the game should be played. Or watching wrestling match where there is no stalling warnings. Or watching a soccer game, well as is. It will work, but it doesn't seem right to me. Lots of things in life work, but aren't the right way, in my opinion. Don't worry, I expect the blasting I will take from this because I have seen what happens when people disagree with this line of thinking, so fire away. Coach J do you play chess at all? I am an avid chess player, it took me a few years to settle on my own philosophy and find that I could compete with anyone with a few openings that I liked. I started to try adn memorize all of these variations of different openings "like the grandmasters" ("like the pros")..but as time passed by i started to realize that i have to KNOW WHO MY COMPETITION IS and adjust my game TO BEAT THEM, NOT THE PROS. I didnt have time to study those huge thick "encyclopoedia of modern openings" books...so i learned "hypermodern flexible openings" - required far less memorization! ...anyhow, So, I learned that I could play "bunched up" in a slow , methodical position game, often kind of cramped and conservative waiting for the other guy to make a mistake and lose control...then we unleash a holy terror....anyhow, football is chess on grass, many ways to win, and its likely that while one guy prefers "The Queens Gambit" another has a disdain for it and chooses "The English opening" or "The Kings Indian attack" for whatever reasoning...football is the same, we are going to be products of our experiences. I used to be a big run and shoot fan, loved to watch it...but that has changed for me, I look for game film and video of teams that play compressed power football. I have come to prefer the timing and coordination of a well choreographed series of plays that pummel a defense relentlessly on the ground over anything that leaves players "improvising" ...when i watch the best spread teams its not often execution that seems to win, its PLAYERS. Guys that can ad lib (the michael vicks of the world) and turn broken plays (seems like there are alot of those) into big gains. Thats not my style...in effect, I want to AVOID THE BROKEN PLAY altogether. Just a different preference I suppose. Not knocking or criticizing any one elses preference just explaining my own here. anyhow for me... I love option football, run and shoot too...but I wont coach those as I feel they are too risky, fun yes, entertaining yes, risky yes. anyhow, just so tog and anyone else that asks knows, this is completely civil in tone. just chatting ...
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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 9:54:05 GMT -6
Ive seen a bunch of DW games, probably 60-70 and Ive NEVER seen 60 wedges in a game, never seen 50 in a game, never 40 in a game, never 30 in a game, never 20 in a HS game, in fact I dont think in a HS game Ive ever seen more than 10. Thats like saying a spread team throws sixty 40 yard bombs in a game LOL, not useful to illustrate a premise with something that simply doesnt or wouldnt happen. The DW teams I saw ran 5-6 plays and ran them all pretty well, I love seeing that sneaky hidden ball trap play or thet double handoff reverse play along with the basic off-tackle toss, Markham and others like to runthe jet sweep series too. IMHO the precision of a well run running attack is no diiferent than a well run passing attack. The only difference is I dont think you have to have great players or a great QB to do the precision running attack. Those employing slow down methods only do so to maximize the potential of their teams, it's good coaching. Example. Nebraska Basketball in the Wilt Chamberlain era played KU in Lawrence and lost by 50+ less than two weeks later they played KU at home and won with both teams scoring under 40 points. Should the NU coach have run and gunned it and lost by 50 to make a few fans happy or should he have done whats best for his players , slowed the game down and beat Wilt and the Jayhawks? If Im the player or fan of that team Im taking the win, I dont want to lose by 50. Any coach that is outmanned by huge margins is maximizing his teams chances of victory by slowing the game down, as a player I wanted to win that was the goal of the game to use our talents and strategy to win. There is a clear cut winner in every game, I like that and as a compeitor not out there as a court jester there for the entertainment of the fans LOL. Im not a style over substance guy, our world seems to be today though. As a coach Im going to do whatever I can within the confines of the rules and with integrity to maximze my teams chances at winning. If thats running 4 basic plays or runnng the polecat etc thats what Im going to do. . BTW Many of the HS scoring and offensive records have been set by DW teams Markhams team once scored 880 in one season LOL. Winnng and scoring lots of points isnt boring to me anyways but Im different like that LOL.
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Post by brophy on Mar 20, 2007 10:02:07 GMT -6
so what's left to talk about?
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 20, 2007 10:03:23 GMT -6
North Platte didnt have Woodhead in the DW for that game anyways,
Only 1 A school west of Kearney (North Platte) and only 1 in the NE (Norfolk). It's still alive and well in the small schools.
I see how my shorthand got confusing... North Platte has not run DW as far as I know... I meant that they are the only big school in a vast area like Norfolk. Out in the sticks there is not as much big school influence... (Pierce is a "big school" up here... about 300 in the HS), therefore a lot of teams still running DW, Wishbone, Maryland I, in the areas of the state where having one McDonald's qualifies as a large town.
Anyway, I like the DW, use some DW principles (we have no line splits)... there are just some things that do not mesh with my philosophy (ex. harder to run an Iso from DW and Iso has been our staple for years). We run Toss (superpower), and some other DW plays that I have brought in to my scheme.
I like this board because I can see what someone else believes, and it might be totally against my philosophy, but I can take one tiny part of that and adapt it to my own.... or I can decide to NOT take anything and at least know it was a conscious decision and not a prejudgment because they are Spread and I just don't like that. For most of us, we feel a lot better about our schemes if we fortify our tastes with reason, not blind prejudice. Isn't that the purpose of clinics/visiting colleges, being on the board etc.?
Most _____ formation guys are pretty hard-core. SW, DW, Wishbone, T Formation... West Coast Offense (which I don't like, but I do admire Callahan for sticking to his guns when everyone here is complaining... and I have seen WCO teams win a lot too), all "know" what they do is the best. If not, their lack of confidence will show- to the players, to the public, etc.
I give the spread passing guys a hard time, and I take it from everyone here (our counselor was kidding me today- again- about switching to the WCO, the Superintendent overheard and said "to do that he will have to learn how to pass forward"). I actually like that comment (take it as a compliment).
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 20, 2007 10:05:00 GMT -6
Chadron State runs a spread offense with some Pistol. That is the offense that he averages just about 250yards a game. (2700 yards on the season in 13 games). He is a very good back though. The 40-50 Clips Ive seen of Chadron never had them in the Pistol or Shotgun of any kind, their passing stats were very low. Got to see some of theoir game vs NWMS. I saw em running Danny in the "I" and some single back two tight end sets. After watching him in HS I thought he was too small to make it even at the DII Level, I was wrong.[/quote] Coach, With all due respect, I watched the Chadron/Northwest Game tape (have connections at Chadron) and there was a lot of passing from the Eagles that game. Here is the official stats www2.csc.edu/athletics/football/stats/2006/13cscfb.htmI would think 42 passing attempts and 279 yards is a considerable amount of yards and attempts. Many of their packages in that game had 4 WR as a base set. Mostly double slot formation with a single back. It may not be the true spread, but not Double Tight either. The game was 28-21 in favor of Northwest Missouri. On the season they average 160 passing yards a game (more rushing, but with Woodhead, why not?). They also blew out many opponents and had no need to pass the ball. Just the facts.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 10:07:32 GMT -6
If you watched the game you saw that they shut down Danny cold from the very start, he didnt have anything for yardage, they got behind and started throwing. NWMS had a great defense the rest of the season Chadron ran the ball significantly more.
I would have thought as a former NWMS player you would have seen the game live.
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 20, 2007 10:08:28 GMT -6
I would say that there are times when a group of dwers on the forums will work hard to sell a newcomer on the system and all of its glory...and there are times when someone comes in with ideas of dabbling or wanting to be creative and "merge" ideas...and the resounding advice is always DO NOT DO IT. So, I cant totally agree with your post, but I dont disagree with it completely either. For WHATEVER REASON double wingers are very passionate, cultish and nutty... ITS A DOUBLE WING THING, YOU WOULDNT UNDERSTAND. ;D I mean who else would think a game with 60 wedges running over a defense was "awesome!"...yeah, a different breed so Its definitely NOT for everyone. I have worked with guys who always want to "get the ball outside" or are constantly worried about " 8 in the box" and cant seem to "get" the fact that we are scoring a point a minute already and dont need to do anything different. It takes a different mind set to be willing to call power, power, power, power, trap, power power, counter td. go for two, onsides kick...power power power , uh oh, 4th and 3...power power power power trap, counter td. go for two... etc I agree that most DW guys are "all or nothing" type of people (again most NOT all). Like you have said it is more than a scheme, it is a mentality. That being said, I am personally not a fan of 4 yards a cloud of dust and stalling. (aka ball/clock control). I know why people do it, but I am just not a fan of it. I am not a fan of the constant onside kick or the grind it out style. It is simply my difference in philosophy. To me it would be like watching a basketball game with no shot clock and teams just making 100 passes before each shot. Just not how I think the game should be played. Or watching wrestling match where there is no stalling warnings. Or watching a soccer game, well as is. It will work, but it doesn't seem right to me. Lots of things in life work, but aren't the right way, in my opinion. Don't worry, I expect the blasting I will take from this because I have seen what happens when people disagree with this line of thinking, so fire away. There is one thing to point out about this, 4 yards and a cloud of dust often turns into big gains and high scores later. You wear a team down and they physically and mentally quit. They cant stop you, no matter what they do, they cant...they give up. This is the reason why so many dw teams put up rediculous scores. Think about it, we averaged A POINT A MINUTE OR BETTER. And thats with mercy rule in effect by half time sometimes. 2 and 3 yard toss plays start busting big when the defense loses confidence in the coaching staff on their side. Trust me.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 20, 2007 10:09:39 GMT -6
That being said, I am personally not a fan of 4 yards a cloud of dust and stalling. (aka ball/clock control). Coach: If you are controlling the ball, and scoring, and keeping the other guys from scoring, in what sense is that "stalling"? Coach Seay, If a basketball team won a game 10-5, I wouldn't like it either. Although they score and they stop the other team from scoring. If a wrestler won 1-0, he scored and stopped the other guy from scoring by stalling, I wouldn't like it either. It is a personal choice, but I don't think a coach is wrong for any choice he thinks is needed to be successful. Do you ever do anything because you just prefer it a certain way, even if that disagrees with what other successful people do? My guess is you certainly do because people have had success with lots of different stuff.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 20, 2007 10:12:49 GMT -6
If you watched the game you saw that they shut down Danny cold from the very start, he didnt have anything for yardage, they got behind and started throwing. NWMS had a great defense the rest of the season Chadron ran the ball significantly more. I do agree with you. They ran the ball more earlier in the year. They are a run first team no doubt and of course they would be with a talent like Danny. Still 160 yards per game isn't poor in my opinion, especially when you have a stud RB that tears up the league. The pistol play I can remember vividly from the game was a statue of liberty play. Also Danny's first TD receiving was out of 5 wide spread.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 20, 2007 10:14:57 GMT -6
Coach Joe,
Can basketball teams win 10-5 today? No, shot clock. Can Wrestlers Stall? No they get points taken away.
I would hope one would use real world examples to try and illustrate points.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 20, 2007 10:17:25 GMT -6
Ive seen a bunch of DW games, probably 60-70 and Ive NEVER seen 60 wedges in a game, never seen 50 in a game, never 40 in a game, never 30 in a game, never 20 in a HS game, in fact I dont think in a HS game Ive ever seen more than 10.
I will admit this... once in 2005 and once this past year, we ran an entire drive consisting of one play- wedge (one was an 11 play drive, one was a 5 play drive... we busted off a big run). Both games we were up by a few TDs, looking to control the clock... and to dominate and intimidate a bit too. To be fair, we had better guys up front in both those games. Come to think of it, our first drive in a playoff game was almost all wedge, except for a 2nd-20 pass completion after a holding call (10 play drive- 8 wedge, 1 pass, 1 Iso). You can see this... you just need to get out in pheasant hunting country.
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 20, 2007 10:18:50 GMT -6
and, we have . . .
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