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Post by warrior53 on Mar 17, 2007 15:33:54 GMT -6
Guys, I see a ton of posts on here talking double wing offense. I am from Texas, we don't see it much here. In fact I have only seen it twice in 10 years of coaching and once was in Iowa. I was curious, where are ya'll from? And how did you start running it?
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 17, 2007 16:41:11 GMT -6
Pa- I learned it on the internet...got ahold of Markham clinics, Valatton clinics, a copy of the toss....I studied it hard....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2007 17:01:18 GMT -6
I'm starting to study it now, but I don't know if I can ever see myself running it. There is a team in our conference that runs it, but they are the only team in IL that I know of. Elmwood-Brimfield, located in the general Peoria area for those of who familiar with IL.
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Post by khalfie on Mar 17, 2007 17:38:09 GMT -6
There are a few Dub Wing teams in Il...
Colfax Ridgeview... Villa Grove were using it last year...
There were a few more, but I forget...
The lower level teams using it, have had pretty good success... but once you get to 4a and up... they've really struggled.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 17, 2007 20:39:12 GMT -6
Steve Calande has some excellent materials as well. Colton CA is a USA Today top 20 team, they run it. Clovis East in Cal is in the Biggest Class and runs it well. so do others accross the country, its still a niches offense used by teams that usually dont have the size/ponies. Here in Nebraska One team runs it in the Largest Class "A" and one in Class "C." The one in Class "A" struggles with numbers, but have made the playoffs a number of times, got deep once. The smaller school played for the State Title and lost in 2005, and go to State every year. It's good for them because no one sees the offense, hard to prepare for, unlike the pretty same stuff they see week after week .
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Post by hsrose on Mar 18, 2007 0:13:49 GMT -6
Any ideas on why it doesn't appear more at the higher levels? Level of play, players, coaching?
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 18, 2007 0:22:32 GMT -6
Its a growing offense ...Not sure why more big schools that have done nothing with more traditional offenses dont give it a try...Most often around here it seems that the guys that get big school jobs have college coaching experience so they run stuff that theyd run at college. ::)I think too that there are a number of other reasons that its not used as much in some parts of the country as it others. (I know of no high schools in Pa currently running full blown double wing toss offense)- Of course if it appeared on Tv with some college team running it, itd be everywhere. Just look at the explosion of interest in the single wing all of a sudden...Coincidence? NO, Florida ran a few sw plays and won the national championship...that makes it "acceptable" now right?
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 18, 2007 0:49:49 GMT -6
Why it doesn't appear at the higher levels? Because GOD ordained it to be that way. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that the dbl wing is a communist invention, and is slowly but surely helping erode this great nation of ours!!! Actually, I think one of the reasons is this fallacy that schemes are "equalizers" I love it when I read one post stating that you should run the wing-t or dbl wing to get angles and deceptions when you are slow and untalented and can't block up front...and then the next post I read that you should go 4 and 5 wide, and spread them out when you can't block them up front. Which is it guys? Basketball on Grass or football in a phone booth? LoL. EXECUTION IS the equalizer not scheme. That said, the wing-t and dbl wing are labled as those equalizer offenses, so often you see teams run them with lesser talent (and get BLASTED because of the lesser talent, leading to disdain from the fans) At the bigger levels, maybe many coaches like to think they have a good talent base due to school size. They erronously think, "why run an offense for lesser athletes when I have all these good ones". Another reason in my opinion is a lack of "courage" by the coaches. If I line up in split back, or I, or spread...all things that the principal, AD, and mommies and daddies are familiar with and we lose, MAYBE its the kids. But If I line up in that fruity offense where the running back is sniffing the QB and we lose, well I better buy some ear plugs.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 18, 2007 6:30:34 GMT -6
It is difficult to predict motivation. ;D The schools that chose it in this part of the country did so because they were perennial losing programs, had nothing to lose. They probably stuck with it because they had success with it rihgt out of the gate. Both coaches were very confident, strong personalities. The one at the Class "A" school has strong Admin and community support, (great guy) dont know the other guy. he is business guy, non teacher, probably could take it or leave it.
Running something that no one else runs probably does take a bunch of courage and confidence. If you line up in the "I" and get beat with inferior talent you can always blame it on the inferior talent, a pure Jimmys and Joes thing. However if one makes the decision to use something not many others are using, and he loses , the problem could be blamed on chosing the wrong scheme, hence blame the coach.
An example would be Raymond Central here, class C school had not won a game in 2004 lots of lopsided blowouts. A very good rookie HS coach came in with the DW, did a nice job, they won 2 ballgames and were Significantly more competitive, scored nearly 3 times the number of points as the 2004 teams. Not sure if these guys won a game in 2003 either. Several key fans and players didnt like the offense, the guy resigns, What did this team do in 2006? OFer went 4 wide, and scored just a handfull of points again. Raymond Central in Nebraska. The ofer coach is still around. The guy that got the thing going and got em out of their slump and on the road to competitiveness coached for me for one year, and the guy outworks anyone, a beast, knows his stuff inside out etc. a shame really.
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Post by kcbazooka on Mar 18, 2007 6:49:56 GMT -6
I agree with some of the other posts. If you are doing something out of the ordinary you better win!
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 18, 2007 7:04:53 GMT -6
Markhams got 300 wins with it, and not at little schools.
Its important to understand that just because something isnt in fashion at the pro, college or "big school level" doesnt mean it "doesnt work". Lets not forget that there are a few coaches at Midland Lee who got to see first hand that the dw does indeed work.
I maintain that there is still a very large portion of this country that is basically ignorant when it comes to understanding of the dynamics of the double wing offense and all that you can do with it and all of the "advantages" that there are available to a team that buys into the philosophies.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 18, 2007 8:21:14 GMT -6
What you say about the SW may have some merit. At the Nike COY clinic in DC the Single Wing Sessions with Osborne and Louisa were packed, biggest sessions outside of Tedford and Willingham.
In Boston at Glazier, there were 190 at my SW Session, we got moved to the biggest room. Maybe now since they are seeing some of it on TV it is 'safer" to run. The Single Wing coaches conclave drew a record 120 to tiny Wilkes Barre Pennsylvania.
Reality, I guess, pays to be pragmatic in the long hall for many. Or maybe its something many just arent aware of, or havent seen.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 18, 2007 9:02:11 GMT -6
Most likely, one of the biggest reasons is that the DW isn't featured on TV on Saturdays or Sundays. I truly believe that many coaches like to run things that the kids and fans can relate to. Things that they see on TV.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Mar 18, 2007 9:23:41 GMT -6
They erronously think, "why run an offense for lesser athletes when I have all these good ones". "The best approach for inferior talent is the deception which any player can learn but which superior talent neglects." -- Homer Smith
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Post by fbdoc on Mar 18, 2007 13:27:10 GMT -6
In the words of Mark Speckman "Anyone can be an All-American Faker - it's takes no talent, speed, or size." If you can't run over them, run away from them.
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Post by CVBears on Mar 18, 2007 17:23:22 GMT -6
Pa- I learned it on the internet...got ahold of Markham clinics, Valatton clinics, a copy of the toss....I studied it hard.... Seriously? Or is this a joke (I am feeling a little slow today)?
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Post by davecisar on Mar 18, 2007 17:56:49 GMT -6
I dont think so. Have you ever seen any of those Straight T teams out of Michigan carry out fakes? 20 Yds downfield with all 3 backs with cross arms per their "layered" handoffs. Its extremely difficult to kow who has the ball, some amazing rushing and scoring numbers. Homer Smith is from my hometown ( Omaha ), Benson High School and is a wealth of football knowledge.
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Post by tog on Mar 18, 2007 17:59:02 GMT -6
I have learned a lot on the net.
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Post by ticobrown on Mar 18, 2007 18:21:42 GMT -6
I dont think so. Have you ever seen any of those Straight T teams out of Michigan carry out fakes? 20 Yds downfield with all 3 backs with cross arms per their "layered" handoffs. Its extremely difficult to kow who has the ball, some amazing rushing and scoring numbers. Homer Smith is from my hometown ( Omaha ), Benson High School and is a wealth of football knowledge. I remembered all of Constantine HS RBs wearing black elbow pads. That made it harder for the defense to see who had the ball when all of the backs carried out their fakes with their arms covering 'the ball.'
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Post by dubber on Mar 18, 2007 18:55:32 GMT -6
I Have you ever seen any of those Straight T teams out of Michigan carry out fakes? 20 Yds downfield with all 3 backs with cross arms per their "layered" handoffs. Its extremely difficult to kow who has the ball, some amazing rushing and scoring numbers. . This is a great offense!!! In the late 80's our high school program was close to packing it in, young coach took over and ran this offense-----went to a state championship in 93'............. I agree.........execution is the greatest equalizer. However, in a seperate discussion on spread and DW (at least that is what the topic has evolved into) there is an argument that after execution, talent must be considered. You need to run the system that best fits your jimmies and joes and then rep the crap out of it.
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 19, 2007 3:07:18 GMT -6
My personal belief is that "execution" is an oversimplification. If we execute straight dives, or whatever, all plays being vanialla, straight man to man blocking we wont be able to do anything vs a team that has us out athleted. If we we create two vs one, angles, numbers advantages and conclift by using schemes that make sense...AND WE EXECUTE THEM ...yeah, thats going to work. Just my two cents, SCHEMEs DO MATTER. eh, otherwise no one would be here on the net using the whiteboard or at clinics etc. Some say its checkers, I say its chess.
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Post by lochness on Mar 19, 2007 4:46:25 GMT -6
So,
Final answer: it's the execution of a proper scheme that matters most.
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 19, 2007 5:15:01 GMT -6
I would say so. The schemes have to do SOMETHING to put the kids in a position to be successful. The coaches have to make sure the kids can carry out the tasks they are asked to do. schemes matter, talent matters, coaching matters, execution of the tactics matter...
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Post by davecisar on Mar 19, 2007 6:24:26 GMT -6
((I remembered all of Constantine HS RBs wearing black elbow pads. That made it harder for the defense to see who had the ball when all of the backs carried out their fakes with their arms covering 'the ball.))
Ah yes, the Constantine Videos, if you think your team fakes well, watch the Constantine Videos, you wont think that anymore LOL. Even if you know the play series as an observer you still cant find the dang ball, lots of slow motion.
As to black elbow or forearm pads: Ive seen Don Markham have a number of his black rinning backs with white tape wrapped around their forearms spaced at about 10 inches apart my guess for no other reason than to emulate the stripes on the ball, and he runs DW. The "layered" handoffs of the Straight T teams is a whole other world though.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 19, 2007 6:53:57 GMT -6
As to the above topic I would think each group of kids is different it is made up of a unique grouping of sizes, abilities, intellect, motivation and maturity. Each of us have certain constraints as to facilities, practice time, player numbers, size, speed, athleticism, asst coaches etc etc. Each system/scheme has its strengths and weaknesses. My job as coach is to figure out based on the unique grouping of kids I have ( or usually have), my constraints ( My favorite Offense is the Split Back Veer but with just 3 then 2 days a week practice time for youth coaches, I cant teach the Veer) and the strengths and weaknesses of the various schemes out there are the best fit for this unique grouping of kids given the contraints of the situation. Where I am at now we are in a rural area and are slower than our Big City opps. Every year we have been either the smallest or next to smallest team in the league. Vs our other rural opps we are OK numbers wise but when we play the big city teams we play teams that choose from 120-200 kids we play their best "select" teams with the 22-23 that show up for me, no cuts. So we are much smaller than them and much slower with a few exceptions. So we try to limit space in those situations. When we do tackling drills, nearly all our kids can tackle in limited space-short close quarters tackling drills, same for blocking, But once we open up the drills and put space in the equation my smaller and slower players can not hang with decent athletes. Even with great technique they just dont get there. The other teams often try to isolate my weaker players by going trips and then we are 1-1 with their best player to the non trips side, they want one on one, they want space, if I had the players I would do the exact same thing. So when we match up evenly we are ok with space we run our regular stuff and even widen it out some with our spread running attack and coverdale mesh stuff. But when we dont match up which is quite often we limit space and run our regular SW stuff. We dont kick off deep to thier stud RBs because we have little chance of tackling them in the wide open spaces of a KO return or punt return, we squib it, and kick out of bounds on punts etc. We have been very successful using this approach losing just 2 games with my last 6 teams at the Youth level. I like all football, all the different schemes, Xs and Os tech etc but I have to choose the one that fits my kids and gives them the best chance to compete then coach the heck out of it so we execute said scheme perfectly. BTW we too found it on the internet then bought some books and DVDs ( thank goodness they are available they dont do any clinics around here and I cant afford to fly all over the country to clinics as I dont get paid to coach) I watched a group of very average small kids from Illinois running up and down the field against good or better teams and thought, you know my kids arent any worse or smaller than those kids, I think we can do that LOL and we were off to the races. Im the founder and funder of the org, so I dont have to answer to anyone if the offense doesnt work out, so that is a factor as well.
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Post by brophy on Mar 19, 2007 7:03:30 GMT -6
What inherent disadvantages does the double wing and /or a true Wing-T offense have in the recruiting wars?
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Post by davecisar on Mar 19, 2007 7:42:45 GMT -6
The local rural HS is not allowed to recruit and the nearest HS is 30 miles and there are restrictions. Most teams that I have seen go to this dont have the players to begin with, and or because the school has a long reputation for losing. Kids dont like playing for teams that consistently lose or get blown out with regularity, they just dont come out or they play another sport, they dont like getting made fun of by their peers. I think a number of coaches have mentioned that here, the "making fun of" problem. Ive spent time with ADs of some of these City schools and with the AD of the City School District, they claim there are many great athetes just roaming the halls, not playing football. The best way they say to get interest back up and numbers back up is to win. Example, Omaha Central High wins 2 consecutive HS State Basketball Titles, now the basketball numbers are through the roof. Millard North High, Omaha, continuous winner, over 250 kids playing football. On the other hand Omaha South, sames classification about 70 kids out for football, suiting up 28 kids for a varsity game., When they play Millard North its over 100 kids suited vs 28, South hasnt had a winning record in 20 years. When I went there, we consitently won and always had 150+ kids playing football. Whenever South wins 4 games gets on that cusp thier numbers rise. Moral of the story, in HS best way to attract kids is win according to these ADs. My guess is many coaches would love to have talent, but they also just love having "football players". Guys that want to win and play hard, play whats best for the team rather than that tiny sliver of 'talent" that has a trouble making player agent"dad" that makes life miserable for many coaches and the players around them. The HC for Omaha largest and most prestigous HS just took the job in 2006, he claimed the reason the team had such an abysmal record was that the former HC would "recruit" players and make too many promises and concessions. In spite of producting more DI talent than all the other schools in Omaha combined in the last 15 years, think Ahman Green and at least 7 former starting "I" backs for NU over the last 30 years, they havent won anything. He said the recruiting days are over ( with the exception of within the wals of the school) and the guys is a Shrine Bowl coach who will win there. Much smaller scale had a chance to get a very good player, dad played at NU as a running back left early was drafted high and played for the Saints for 5-6 years, a real stud. Kid was extremely fast and quick kid, hes going to be very good. I could tell mom would be trouble, wanted to know what position, how many touches etc etc, wasnt cool with our weekly school grades accountability program, didnt get a good feel so gave her the number of another team.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 19, 2007 12:45:43 GMT -6
I find it funny how Double Wing guys talk out of both sides of their mouths. They will say "use the system that best suits your athletes." It seems that no matter what type of athletes you have though, the Double Wing or Single Wing is the answer. Funny how that works out. Proponents of other systems, however are full of it. It seems like a case of "we are always right" and "you are always wrong, unless you agree with how we do things."
It gets old.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 19, 2007 13:05:33 GMT -6
As a SW coach that has also run "I", Power "I", Veer, Double Wing and even some Spread, that isnt my philosophy. Ive never put down another offense, hijacked a thread or even made a snide comment or joke about any other offense.
If Im better than the other guy we are gonna spread it out and play some one on one. we do when we have the kids. I run a this as our "spread" set: We will motion to trips and run some coverdale stuff etc ...............x.................x....x...c...x...x.............................x ......................x.......................x.................x ............................................x Problem is unless I have a "select" team I just dont have the players to run it. With just 22 kids sometimes we dont have a thrower, I cant send kids down to JV or Freshman, we play with what we get. If I consistently had the players I would look at a total different offense.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 19, 2007 13:09:58 GMT -6
As a SW coach that has also run "I", Power "I", Veer, Double Wing and even some Spread, that isnt my philosophy. If Im better than the other guy we are gonna spread it out and play some one on one. we do when we have the kids. I run a this as our "spread" set: We will motion to trips and run some coverdale stuff etc ...............x.................x....x...c...x...x.............................x ......................x.......................x.................x ............................................x Problem is unless I have a "select" team I just dont have the players to run it. With just 22 kids sometimes we dont have a thrower, I cant send kids down to JV or Freshman, we play with what we get. If I consistently had the players I would look at a total different offense. I understand your point of view. It just seems that I hear the argument that DW is the cure for every situation. It is a viable offense, but just like most other offenses, it best suited for a particular group of athletes.
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