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Post by mrjvi on Mar 28, 2012 8:22:29 GMT -6
Sorry if this has been covered alot but I'd like to know what people think about bringing sophs and maybe freshman up to the varsity. You hear about "you are down a TD for every soph who starts" or the opposite that they will push the others and themselves will be better for an extra varsity year. I had no sophs up last year but see next years soph class with decent talent but very good off season work ethic as opposed to next year's juniors that aren't doing much of anything. If they are good enough bring them up? Would they have to start? I have brought up 6 one year some years back and they ended up being great as seniors even though they didn't all start as sophs. GUIDELINES? OPINIONS?
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Post by coachcb on Mar 28, 2012 8:29:41 GMT -6
Here's the way I look at it: you want to best 11 players on the field, not the best 11 juniors or seniors.
Play the underclassmen if they are better then the juniors or seniors. I've never coached in a program where freshman played much at the varsity level, at all. But. we moved them up to the JV program. I have seen my fair share of sophs that got a lot of varsity time and I honestly felt they should have been the starters.
Just don't fall into the trap of 'playing for next year'. I coached under a guy that played the sophs and juniors over seniors in a lot of situations. The nod always went to them if they were on par with the seniors or just slightly less skilled. The justification: "They have more time in the program".
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Post by blb on Mar 28, 2012 8:33:44 GMT -6
My philosophy is if a younger player and an older one are even, the younger plays.
We don't move kids up unless they're going to play, meaning start on at least one side of the ball.
Lou Holtz once said, "If you start a 'youth movement,' all you're doing is getting them ready for the next coach!"
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Post by fantom on Mar 28, 2012 8:43:44 GMT -6
No question, you play the best players. If they're physically and mentally ready to come up, they come up.
I've just moved to a new school and some of the personnel decisions that they made last year I find baffling. They had only ten linemen on their varsity roster but had two 300 pounders on the JVs. They had another kid, a soph who looks like he has some talent, who didn't play ;ast year. He was on the team but didn't play. Called him up to varsity but didn't play him. WTF?
So, IMO, if they're ready to come up they come up.
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 28, 2012 9:15:43 GMT -6
I have always played young players....
Last year we started our last 7 games of the season with 9 Freshmen and Sophomores starting... We won our district and region and lost in the state semifinals in OT with 9 of them ( 2 OL, 2 DL, 3 LB, 2 Secondary). Pretty wild.
As 9th graders they were 10-0 and won 345 - 55 against their opponents.
So I do not prescribe to that philosophy....
You have to be patient at times but their up side tends to be MUCH greater than that of a senior or junior. Couple of them actually played a few JV games early and it was not until weeks 4-5 that they started full time for us.
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Post by blb on Mar 28, 2012 9:25:38 GMT -6
I have always played young players.... Last year we started our last 7 games of the season with 9 Freshmen and Sophomores starting... We won our district and region and lost in the state semifinals in OT with 9 of them ( 2 OL, 2 DL, 3 LB, 2 Secondary). Pretty wild. What level of competition are you playing?
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 28, 2012 9:35:07 GMT -6
We have just under 1700 students... AAA Football in Virginia (Division 5 ). OUt of 6 divisions we are the 5th highest..
Team we lost to in the state semifinals in OT won the state championship game by couple of TDs... They are a national powerhouse!
Our 2nd none district game was against the Division 6 State Semifinalist and State Champs year before.
We play a very, very difficult schedule. Very high level of competition... Lot of speed and athleticism within our schedule and district.
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Post by fantom on Mar 28, 2012 9:39:58 GMT -6
I have always played young players.... Last year we started our last 7 games of the season with 9 Freshmen and Sophomores starting... We won our district and region and lost in the state semifinals in OT with 9 of them ( 2 OL, 2 DL, 3 LB, 2 Secondary). Pretty wild. What level of competition are you playing? They played at the semifinals at the second highest level in the satte.
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Post by wingtol on Mar 28, 2012 9:42:13 GMT -6
No question, you play the best players. If they're physically and mentally ready to come up, they come up. Do not over look the mental part, may be physically ready but can they handle it all upstairs is the question we ask.
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Post by blb on Mar 28, 2012 9:44:45 GMT -6
We have just under 1700 students... AAA Football in Virginia (Division 5 ). OUt of 6 divisions we are the 5th highest.. Team we lost to in the state semifinals in OT won the state championship game by couple of TDs... They are a national powerhouse! Our 2nd none district game was against the Division 6 State Semifinalist and State Champs year before. We play a very, very difficult schedule. Very high level of competition... Lot of speed and athleticism within our schedule and district. You had a great season against some impressive competition. Were any of your Juniors and Seniors brought up as Freshmen or Sophomores? Did this season's underclassmen play ahead of any of them?
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Post by blb on Mar 28, 2012 9:47:29 GMT -6
No question, you play the best players. If they're physically and mentally ready to come up, they come up. Do not over look the mental part, may be physically ready but can they handle it all upstairs is the question we ask. There are also social and emotional aspects too - kids no longer playing with "their" class and buddies, now playing with older kids and taking positions of THEIR classmates.
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Post by groundchuck on Mar 28, 2012 9:56:15 GMT -6
Physically it is easy to tell. I also agree the emotional and mental aspect has to be evaluated as well.
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 28, 2012 10:15:14 GMT -6
I have one WR who will be a 4 year starter next year...
Had 2 seniors 2 year starters... one a three year starter..
Had 3 other juniors who will be 3 year starters next year as well....
We do try and identify the best players and play them up if they are socially, emotionally and physically ready.
This year we have a "log Jam"... With so many spots taken I do not forsee any Rising sophomore starting for us next year... Maybe 1 or 2 in spell situations... We are very senior and junior heavy this year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 10:19:22 GMT -6
I agree with aspects of what everyone has posted before me. As a small school coach, we often need sophomores to fill out the starting lineup whether they are "ready" or not and I'm sure some of the posts above me are made from experience in the same situation.
My main point will be to agree with what has been posted in terms of if you bring them up, play them. We lost a kid a couple years ago, because our varsity HC made his sophomore year an unbearable experience. He didn't let him play JV because he was varsity...yet would only play him 6 or so snaps in a varsity game. If these sophomores are role or special teams players for varsity, they should still be playing JV games as well.
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 28, 2012 10:21:51 GMT -6
You play the best 11 regardless of age. I know for a fact that I will probably have a sophomore on the offensive line this season and there could be several that see time on the defensive line. They are simply the better players and deserve to play.
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Post by gdoggwr on Mar 28, 2012 11:58:54 GMT -6
If they are ready, then they come up. Especially sophomores.
I've only coached a couple (literally two) freshman that were varsity ready. One years ago at a 1A school (smallest 11-man classification) who probably wasn't ready, but we were TERRIBLE and he was the best athlete in the program. And one two years ago (didn't start but was in the D-line rotation), who started both ways O-line/D-line this year as a sophomore. He is a freak-show STUD and is already getting BCS offers.
I guess my point is, if you need the younger guys you're either not very good and you're kind of playing for the future anyway (might as well get started), OR those young guys are really good, and its doesn't help them or the team if they are play sub-varsity games against guys that aren't at their level yet.
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Post by mattharris75 on Mar 28, 2012 12:12:49 GMT -6
We went 10-2 two years ago starting 3 freshmen on offense (2 O linemen and the QB). They were the best we had, regardless of age.
The program should be geared toward the success of the varsity team, and the players that can help you win at that level should be playing there. Freshman/JV are a means to an end, not and end unto themselves.
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Post by groundchuck on Mar 28, 2012 13:28:17 GMT -6
In our conference I feel we'd handicap ourselves one loss for every sophomore we have to start if the other teams are playing all juniors and seniors which many are.
In 2010 we started 2 sophs and lost twice. Last year we started 4 sophs and lost four games. Most of those losses were early in the season.
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Post by coachbw on Mar 28, 2012 13:38:59 GMT -6
I do prescribe to the play the best 11 theory with one exception. If the varsity is at a place where we don't feel we can compete even by playing the best 11 and we feel that their 9th or 10th grade team will be pretty solid with them we will leave them there. I have seen too many kids get use to losing and accept it. I would rather have them stick together and keep the attitude and chip on their shoulder. If moving them up however gives us a chance to be competitive I'm not at all against it.
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Post by fantom on Mar 28, 2012 15:57:47 GMT -6
I do prescribe to the play the best 11 theory with one exception. If the varsity is at a place where we don't feel we can compete even by playing the best 11 and we feel that their 9th or 10th grade team will be pretty solid with them we will leave them there. I have seen too many kids get use to losing and accept it. I would rather have them stick together and keep the attitude and chip on their shoulder. If moving them up however gives us a chance to be competitive I'm not at all against it. There is something to the idea of letting a good group of young kids get used to winning together.
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Post by coachiminime on Mar 28, 2012 16:59:58 GMT -6
We like to ask ourselves a question when we bring a kid up, is he goin got get any better playing jv? If he truly is too good for JV then we definately bring hm up. Secondly how much do you trust your JV coach, is the player better off being with the varsity kids and coaches to better be able to contribute as junior by practicing with you everyday?
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 29, 2012 6:54:32 GMT -6
Those are all good points and factors... Lot of places the JV program might not be good and the player is getting better coaching at the varsity. I get that.
Two things I have learned when working with sophomores at the varsity level
1. Have to be patient. You really, really have to be a good coach. Those kids need constant reps and constant work, feedback.
2. You usually see a LOT of growth very, very quick. As the year goes on their athletic ability starts to show when the mental and emotional side of the game slows down. A sophomore that plays week # 1 for you often is a completely different and better player that will play in week #10.
Since I have been the head coach at my current school I have started almost 30 freshmen and sophomores over the past 4 years. Our players know the best players play - seniority does not mean a thing. Keeps kids competing and does not allow a complacent environment.
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Post by blb on Mar 29, 2012 7:06:03 GMT -6
Our players know the best players play - seniority does not mean a thing. Keeps kids competing and does not allow a complacent environment. This is a very good point, something I need to do a better job with as a coach.
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Post by davishfc on Mar 29, 2012 7:34:21 GMT -6
I do prescribe to the play the best 11 theory with one exception. If the varsity is at a place where we don't feel we can compete even by playing the best 11 and we feel that their 9th or 10th grade team will be pretty solid with them we will leave them there. I have seen too many kids get use to losing and accept it. I would rather have them stick together and keep the attitude and chip on their shoulder. If moving them up however gives us a chance to be competitive I'm not at all against it. I agree. The other side of this is that if those talented sophomores are brought up to, what is expected to be a competitive varsity, some of those other players on the JV are put in a situation where they need to step up. Now they are refining skills in game situations that they might otherwise have not been able to with those talented sophomores still down on the JV. Now when those kids actually get up to the varsity, there are some skills that will help the team because they have been doing more playing than watching. But like you said, if the varsity is not going to be competitive and you believe bringing those sophomores up would ruin them because of a complacent attitude on the part of the upperclassmen, then keep those kids down so they are competing with their "eventual" varsity teammates. JMHO.
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Post by coachwoodall on Mar 29, 2012 8:04:58 GMT -6
Here we play in the biggest division in our state.
We have had success using underclassmen, but usually our preseason write up details how many we lost to graduating.
In our 3 levels of competition, we have freshmen, JV, and varsity.
We can play kids for 8 quarters a week. So we have the luxury of not having to chose over which level a kid 'has' to play.
But with that in mind, we still never play a kid up from Freshman to JV, because we want the 9th graders to learn to play and win together.
JV is simply live reps in a game situation for the back ups. Sophomores and Juniors are the JV.
If we do move a kid up to varsity, it is because he is the starter.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 31, 2012 6:56:49 GMT -6
Sorry if this has been covered alot but I'd like to know what people think about bringing sophs and maybe freshman up to the varsity. You hear about "you are down a TD for every soph who starts" or the opposite that they will push the others and themselves will be better for an extra varsity year. I had no sophs up last year but see next years soph class with decent talent but very good off season work ethic as opposed to next year's juniors that aren't doing much of anything. If they are good enough bring them up? Would they have to start? I have brought up 6 one year some years back and they ended up being great as seniors even though they didn't all start as sophs. GUIDELINES? OPINIONS? Mrjvi--remember that when you pose a question like this here at Huey, the answers will be coming from a WIDE variety of situations and circumstances. Some programs have separate Frosh, JV, Varsity programs with little interaction between the squads. Some programs simply label non starting Sophs and Jr's. as JV, but the entire group is on the "Varsity".
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Post by mrjvi on Mar 31, 2012 7:34:34 GMT -6
Thanks. I have been very pleased with the responses. Knowing that situations vary helps also as it gives me perspective. After 30 years of coaching and learning about other programs, this site has been more valuable than most clinics I've attended. Diseminating constructive advice from rediculous advise has gotten much easier as well.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 31, 2012 7:44:21 GMT -6
Thanks. I have been very pleased with the responses. Knowing that situations vary helps also as it gives me perspective. After 30 years of coaching and learning about other programs, this site has been more valuable than most clinics I've attended. Diseminating constructive advice from rediculous advise has gotten much easier as well. I know that I find it fascinating how different things are across the country. For instance, I have NEVER been involved with a program that wasn't 6 days a week, yet for many here, it seems that the kids don't come in on Sat or Sun. I see lots of talk about kids being "convinced" to go to weightlifting in the offseason... but again, I have never been with a program where it wasn't just understood that you went to lifting.
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Post by 19delta on Mar 31, 2012 8:07:25 GMT -6
We have just under 1700 students... AAA Football in Virginia (Division 5 ). OUt of 6 divisions we are the 5th highest.. Team we lost to in the state semifinals in OT won the state championship game by couple of TDs... They are a national powerhouse! Our 2nd none district game was against the Division 6 State Semifinalist and State Champs year before. We play a very, very difficult schedule. Very high level of competition... Lot of speed and athleticism within our schedule and district. Holy $hit... Is that a typical year? Heck...with that much talent, you can pretty much just roll the ball out there...
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