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Post by blackfly73 on Mar 22, 2007 18:48:07 GMT -6
The following article appeared as a summary to a study released at the beginning of March. I'm a little surprised on the findings.
A provocative new study says that while athletes continue to be role models, and involvement in organized sports can shape a child's character, the influences might not always be positive. In fact, the study by an American ethics centre says children involved in sports are more likely to cheat in school, are learning from their coaches how to best cut corners, and are more open to forms of bullying as a way to motivate people.
The findings, by the Los Angeles-based Josephson Institute, fly in the face of the most widely held view of athletics: that it builds strong character, honesty and team-building skills. Those who make their living from such activities say those beliefs still hold true. The two-year survey of 5,275 high school athletes from across the U.S. yielded some surprising results - at least for anyone who loves sports. Two-thirds of the athletes admitted to cheating on an exam at least once in the previous year, compared with 60 per cent in the rest of the student population. Football players were the worst, at 72 per cent.
While the students surveyed overwhelmingly saw their coaches as a positive influence on their lives, they also said it was all right for the coach to teach them how to cheat and get away with it. The study did not examine what the connection between sports and cheating might be.
Do you think as coaches we're responsible for the behavior of our players and are we doing enough REAL character education?
I myself have to admit that I see some coaches glorifying 'bending' the rules or breaking them 'just a little' if it leads to winning. I'm currently dealing with that now as I have a couple staff members who want to find ways around the start-up time for fall practice by surpervising "player only" practices as just showing up as part of a bike ride, walk, etc.
I'm really opposed to it - and was BEFORE the article - because of the message it translate to the players.
I'm just interested to hear everyone's opinions on the article and our different ideas.
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Post by warrior53 on Mar 22, 2007 19:18:32 GMT -6
First of all, make sure you know the reputation of the source and what their adgenda is before you pass judgment on the "facts" presented in a study. Secondly, maybe the athletes really didn't cheat more they were just more honest in the survey. Don't trust everything you read in print.
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Post by fbdoc on Mar 22, 2007 19:40:24 GMT -6
I don't think we need a "survey" to know that one of our goals as coaches is to teach hard work and fair play to the players we have. Cheating to win a high school football game is extremely short sighted in the eduaction of a young man. Are coaches (and players) going to cheat? Yes, some of them will. What will you do? How are your kids going to remember you? As someone who tried to get them to give their very best... or as someone who taught them how to cheat?
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Post by dubber on Mar 22, 2007 19:53:07 GMT -6
warrior 53 is right, we need to look at a ton of factors (where the survey was conducted, by whom, sample, etc.)
For the 72% that cheated, was football participating the deciding factor? Impossible to know.
Football is great at building teamwork and perseverance.....it can help keep kids out of trouble, BUT IT CANNOT TAKE THE PLACE OF PARENTING!!!!!!
Obviously everyone is going to be really defensive about this post.
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 22, 2007 20:02:22 GMT -6
I agree, however, let's remember that this was a study done by someone outside the profession. More importantly, this study was not conducted by the user that posted the original thread. That user made no specific comment on its validity, merely presented the study and posed a valid question. So, with that being said, let's make sure our posts are directed at the STUDY and not the USER.
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Post by dubber on Mar 22, 2007 20:23:54 GMT -6
I agree, however, let's remember that this was a study done by someone outside the profession. More importantly, this study was not conducted by the user that posted the original thread. That user made no specific comment on its validity, merely presented the study and posed a valid question. So, with that being said, let's make sure our posts are directed at the STUDY and not the USER. Quite right.......in retrospect, I should have written that people will be defensive against the article, not blackfly73 |
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Post by airman on Mar 22, 2007 20:30:26 GMT -6
I think there is some truth to the survey. the pressure to win is mounting at the high school. I know in texas h.s. is like college where they fire and hire staffs. however in my neck of the wood(wi) you would get h.s. coaches who worked 20 to 40 years as teh head coach.
I know of a guy who was just forced out after 32 years at the school cause he had 3 losing seasons in a row. 55 years old and the school lost a great coach and now he is retiring cause he can. he would have stayed at least till 62 i know this.
so pressure to win and the fact the the price of college has gone through the roof. you think gas is high, check out how tution has raised. so the pressure to get scholarships for kids so mom and dad who are alreay strapped. you know that 300,000 to 500,000 dollar 90 year loan which they cannot offord to pay, plus the credit cards, the two suvs in the 4 car garage along with the boats and the lake home. mom and pop just cannot afford jrs college. never mind my parent never paid a dime but the entitlement generation thinks they have to afford their kids collge and good all satalite state U is not good enough.
then you throw in the fact that cheating in the norm these days. look at what people see on tv.
when you have a president stand up in front of a nation and say I did nto have sexual relations with that woman and you knew he was a cheater and now a liar, what do you expect. same with the rum dum in office now.
had slick willy clinton went on national tv and said, I am sorry but I had a affare with that woman and I ask for your forgiveness, his ratings would have went through the roof.
yes we have a cheatin culture. honesty is not rewarded now. look at whistle blowers.
heck, home many of you tell a kid he is going to get in the game the day before adn then through really no fault of your own, you forget. it has happened to me. the message I sent to the kid is my word is not my bond and that I am not honest. now if this happens I imediately go up to the kid and apologize and work to make it up the next game. at least I made the effort.
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Post by blackfly73 on Mar 22, 2007 20:57:51 GMT -6
I'm not supporting or brushing off that article - It was forwarded to our phys.ed and coaches conference, and we've been discussing it at lunch hour for a little while now.
The article was posted in a large scale circulation paper - that normally is VERY positive when it comes to minor and HS sports.
I don't think we can dismiss it off-hand - like Airman brought up we REALLY have to take a look at the current climate in our High Schools and who's setting the expectations.
I think sometime I've really seen change since I graduated from HS about 15 years ago now is the EXPECTATIONS of parents and students, as well as more of the "Disease of Me" to quote Phil Jackson.
IMO, the burden of success seems to have shifted off the student, and onto the lap of the teacher or coach. If the student or athlete isn't successful - it seems the blame is coming to the coach/teacher.
Cheating IS a problem - but it can be dealt with (it was also a problem LONG before Monica-gate!).
I'm just wondering what OUR responsibilty is here as coaches, and how we go about sending the RIGHT messages to our student-athletes?
I'm sure probably about 90-95% of coaches are doing and saying the right things - BUT... is it time to revisit whether or not our methods are truly working, or time to take aim again at the ultimate goal "successful" student-athletes in life!
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Post by airman on Mar 22, 2007 21:00:12 GMT -6
I think john wooden is one of his books said it best. he talked about two sets of 3
never lie
never cheat
never steal
do not whine
do not complain
do not make excuses
think that sums it up
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
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Post by tedseay on Mar 23, 2007 3:22:02 GMT -6
never lie never cheat never steal do not whine do not complain do not make excuses think that sums it up Amen. The survey was sponsored by the "Character Counts" people -- here's an example of their stuff: www.charactercounts.org/pdf/WhatWillMatter.pdfWithout access to the survey methodology, there is no way of telling what hidden biases, if any, were built into the process... |
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
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Post by kr7263 on Mar 23, 2007 10:25:10 GMT -6
Like most socio-cultural "scientific" studies..follow that money trail. Somebody somewhere is selling something that can "fix" the problem based on "scientific research".
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Post by coachcb on Mar 23, 2007 15:46:32 GMT -6
I want to see exactly what his study entailed. I have read a lot of sociology studies that lacked any credibility; usually due to small and and unrandomized study groups and poor measurement tools. Surveys are notoriously invalid and unreliable, especially when in the hands of a biased researcher.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 23, 2007 15:48:59 GMT -6
A survey that directly asks HS students if they've cheated in school isn't going to be a very good tool. Think of it this way- if 6 percent of the regular student population lied about cheating, then theyre right on mark with the athletes.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 23, 2007 15:58:04 GMT -6
The findings, by the Los Angeles-based Josephson Institute, fly in the face of the most widely held view of athletics: that it builds strong character, honesty and team-building skills.
"Character, honesty and team building". it does not say anything about blameless, perfect or infallible...or even "ethical"... so perhaps the athletes were the only ones with the character and honesty to admit wrong-doing. I will be the first to admit my players do some dumb, wrong, etc. things. I can also honestly say that as a principal... they are not the kids who try to weasel out of everything with a story, an excuse, or a lie. As a general rule, the athletes are the ones who own up to what they did wrong.
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Post by airman on Mar 23, 2007 17:52:11 GMT -6
what is tolerated is accepted.
cheating is happening in high school all the time. why is it accepted, cause if you take away the test and rip it up like when I was in h.s. 20 years ago, mommy and daddy helicopter parents will fly right in and make your life difficult. so thus schools have adopted a do not, do not tell methodology.
in a perfect world schools would be run like west point, where cheaters no matter what they do or do not do for the school are expelled. duty, honor, country.
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Post by blackfly73 on Mar 23, 2007 18:52:03 GMT -6
what is tolerated is accepted. cheating is happening in high school all the time. why is it accepted, cause if you take away the test and rip it up like when I was in h.s. 20 years ago, mommy and daddy helicopter parents will fly right in and make your life difficult. so thus schools have adopted a do not, do not tell methodology. in a perfect world schools would be run like west point, where cheaters no matter what they do or do not do for the school are expelled. duty, honor, country. Agreed - we have a policy that a student recieves an automatic ZERO on any assignment that contains plagarism. The problem goes beyond cheating on a test or cut & pasting stuff off the Net. Many of them purchase term paper off the internet - there are HUGE banks of sites out there. Universities are having a HUGE problem with this. The reason I posted the article wasn't to question the data, or the 'intentions' of the research. The numbers do suggest that probably the athletes ARE cheating a little more - I know for a fact a few universities where Athletes in Phys Ed programs use the same assignments, passed down like family heirlooms. Here's the thing we REALLY need to look at IMO... when we 'bend' the rules or look for loopholes... in pursuit of the almighty W - we're also sending a message to players that it's okay for them to cheat as well. Most teenagers don't see issues as shades of grey very well - they see things much more black & white. IF ... IF... our current methods of character education aren't working, then how do we re-aim our efforts at the goal? |
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 23, 2007 18:58:42 GMT -6
in a perfect world schools would be run like west point, where cheaters no matter what they do or do not do for the school are expelled. duty, honor, country.
Who would remain to govern our nation then??? They would ALL be expelled! Seriously, "what is tolerated is accepted"... or what I go by: "You get what you demand". I don't have a problem with this- they can work together on assignments, but must write the names of the "helpers" (just like the Air Force Academy... usually have to give a zero or two before this is fully understood...), plus, almost all major assignments are individual ones (small school... we can do that a lot easier than most can)... and it is pretty easy to search for cut and paste texts. They learn pretty quickly how to cite and give credit. It is kind of like my playbook. I originated about 10% of it- the rest I got from a lot of places (playbook = research paper). If someone were able to cheat in my class once, I would blame them. More than once... I'd better look at myself.
Anyway, surveys show only the tip of the iceberg... the problem is getting to the 7/8 underneath.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 23, 2007 19:17:00 GMT -6
The reason I posted the article wasn't to question the data, or the 'intentions' of the research. The numbers do suggest that probably the athletes ARE cheating a little more - I know for a fact a few universities where Athletes in Phys Ed programs use the same assignments, passed down like family heirlooms.
Ok. I understand this... and maybe they are. Yet I have such a mistrust of almost everything anymore (from governments to universities to independent researchers) that I am the "doubting Thomas" of modern thought.
You make good points... but where "cheating" may be a strong word for this, No Child Left Behind has created a system of loopholes through the process that perpetuates ridiculousness (for some), has a repetitious series of tests (usually on material well below our grade level... sorry, but our average ACT score last year was 23.8... over 80% of the juniors took the test)...and while I do not endorse cheating, I do, by my methods, support getting it out of the way and am probably deemphasizing the importance of our test on "Clifford the Big Red Dog", so we can return to Shakespeare's King Lear, which would be omitted from our syllabus if we spent "proper time"on preparation of these "tests".
I may have strayed from the topic... I do not support cheating at all, but still maintain that polls only show a small sliver (ex. Dewey defeats Truman).
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Post by airman on Mar 23, 2007 20:23:34 GMT -6
agreed, colleges are having huge problems with the internet. from compaines circulating test and term papers.
grade inflation is also a huge problem on campus. every child has been told they are A material and they expect a A in class. I read this in an article written by a northwestern(evanstan il) prof.
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jman
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by jman on Mar 23, 2007 23:48:38 GMT -6
Obviously as coaches most of will be scepticle of research that seems to "bash" us or our athletes. However, sometimes it is all in interpretation. Like warrior53 said "maybe they were just more honest in the survey".
Here is another thought, are the types of kids that are athletes usually are a little different than other nonathletic kids? Dont the kids we coach tend to be a little more competitive than those that choose not to participate in athletics? Are not their personalities as a whole a little different? This most certainly is not any kind of excuse for them but reenforces the importance of what coaches do. We take those more competitive, rambunctious type kids and try to teach them to have character, be disciplined etc. The survey should have continued following these kids through adulthood and then made some comparisons later in their life.
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Post by warrior53 on Mar 24, 2007 9:26:33 GMT -6
Cheating is a problem on every campus. There is no doubt. I think what gets me riled up is the implied message in this survey that it is athletics who are not doing enough to correct the problem or that we are compounding the problem by the very nature of what we do. Why do you never here of the Spanish Club or Band or Chess Club doing their part to help in the war on cheating or the fight for character for our young adults. Obviously that is an absurd example, but the point is why is it only athletics that are supposed to provide character education. Is this not a nation wide problem? There is a void of character with kids across the board (and for that matter adults). I agree we should do our part to teach character, and I do and most of us do, lets get other people involved in doing it as well, and maybe we can put a dent in the armor of the millions of messages in the media, home (saddly) and pro sports put out there that it is all about me, me, me.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 24, 2007 23:26:22 GMT -6
It reminds me of the teachers who complain about the coaches being "coaches" like it is a bad thing, that we are focussed on the athletes' abilities to play the sport and this somehow makes us less of a contributing factor to the education of the student body at large. They plead with the administration to not hire anymore coaches, they complain about the fact that practices start before the contract day is up, etc etc....
These are the same people who resent our relationships with our players, yet they are the first ones out the door EVERY NIGHT. So, people with an agenda will always find the data they need to support their trivial arguement, but bottom line, most coaches do it for the kids and put themselves and their families off during the season so that the kids and the school get the best experience possible.
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Post by blackfly73 on Mar 25, 2007 15:24:57 GMT -6
It reminds me of the teachers who complain about the coaches being "coaches" like it is a bad thing, that we are focussed on the athletes' abilities to play the sport and this somehow makes us less of a contributing factor to the education of the student body at large. They plead with the administration to not hire anymore coaches, they complain about the fact that practices start before the contract day is up, etc etc.... These are the same people who resent our relationships with our players, yet they are the first ones out the door EVERY NIGHT. So, people with an agenda will always find the data they need to support their trivial arguement, but bottom line, most coaches do it for the kids and put themselves and their families off during the season so that the kids and the school get the best experience possible. I don't see how that relates at all the data of the study. No one (even in the study, or any teacher) questions the dedication of coaches. The study's looking at WHAT messages are getting through and what aren't. Remember - as a coach what you see on film is what you coach or tolerate. So... IF the data in the study's taken as correct, a portion of our life skills messages aren't getting through either. My question STILL... is how can we go about doing it BETTER? |
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