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Post by coachweav88 on Jun 8, 2011 9:13:33 GMT -6
With the whole Tressel/Pryor soap opera at Ohio State, I was reminded of an excerpt from the book Beyond Winning by Gary M. Walton. In this exerpt, Walton is quoting legendary track coach Brutus Hamilton describing the way athletes are coddled and pampered.
"It's easy to see where a boy can suffer an athletic injury to his character in such a situation. From his junior year in high school he has been subjected to pressures and publicity. He has been led to believe that he can get something for nothing; that life is going to be all primroses merely because he can run or jump or throw or shoot baskets or evade tacklers. He must have good stuff inside him to keep his wits about him. He is called upon at eighteen to make decisions which would challenge those much older and wiser...
Further athletic injuries to the boys character can result in college. If he has chosen a school where sports are emphasized out of proportion to their importance he will find life easy if he performs well on the team. He will be coddled, made over, given parties by avid alumni, and even handed under-the table payment, if not in cash then in some kind of presents. He's embarrassed at first, but soon comes to accept these things as a matter of course. The moral fiber gradually weakens and by the time his intercollegiate competition is over he is a victim of the system, a slave to gross and violent tastes, standing at the crossroads of Destiny. He was ysterday's headlines; he will be tomorrow's trivia. now comes the harsh test as he faces the cruel pace of this competitive world in what he considers routine, humdrum chores of business. He gets no headlines now; others who are younger are taking his place. Some former athletes make the transition rather quickly, others grope for several years and then make the adjustment, usually with the help of some good woman. Others, all to many, drift into middle age and resort to artificial stimulation to substitute for the intoxicating experiences they enjoyed in sports. Maybe sports were only partly to blame, but I believe no one would criticise a doctor who diagnosed these cases as an 'athletic injury to character suffered in youth'"
Beyond Winning pg. 118-119
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 8, 2011 9:21:28 GMT -6
I personally see nothing wrong with the actions of any of the Ohio State players...
yes Tressell shouldn't have lied but the players did nothing wrong in my opinion
I took a sociology class focusing on corporate sports last quarter and we examined NCAA football pretty extensively... everyone is making money off of these kids except the kids themselves... they sold THEIR PROPERTY for some tattoos... big whoop. I am sure there are much worse violations going on NCAA
and everyone freaked out about Pryor showing up in a sports car...without ever caring that it was 4 years old and owned by his mother... not given to him by some booster or agent as many thought originally
college football.basketball is a gigantic business... the kids deserve to be paid
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Post by fantom on Jun 8, 2011 9:26:44 GMT -6
I personally see nothing wrong with the actions of any of the Ohio State players... yes Tressell shouldn't have lied but the players did nothing wrong in my opinion I took a sociology class focusing on corporate sports last quarter and we examined NCAA football pretty extensively... everyone is making money off of these kids except the kids themselves... they sold THEIR PROPERTY for some tattoos... big whoop. I am sure there are much worse violations going on NCAA and everyone freaked out about Pryor showing up in a sports car...without ever caring that it was 4 years old and owned by his mother... not given to him by some booster or agent as many thought originally college football.basketball is a gigantic business... the kids deserve to be paid Sure. What could go wrong when you make $40,000 selling autographs and hang out smoking pot with a convicted felon who's being investigated by the FBI? |
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Post by fantom on Jun 8, 2011 9:28:58 GMT -6
With the whole Tressel/Pryor soap opera at Ohio State, I was reminded of an excerpt from the book Beyond Winning by Gary M. Walton. In this exerpt, Walton is quoting legendary track coach Brutus Hamilton describing the way athletes are coddled and pampered. "It's easy to see where a boy can suffer an athletic injury to his character in such a situation. From his junior year in high school he has been subjected to pressures and publicity. He has been led to believe that he can get something for nothing; that life is going to be all primroses merely because he can run or jump or throw or shoot baskets or evade tacklers. He must have good stuff inside him to keep his wits about him. He is called upon at eighteen to make decisions which would challenge those much older and wiser... Further athletic injuries to the boys character can result in college. If he has chosen a school where sports are emphasized out of proportion to their importance he will find life easy if he performs well on the team. He will be coddled, made over, given parties by avid alumni, and even handed under-the table payment, if not in cash then in some kind of presents. He's embarrassed at first, but soon comes to accept these things as a matter of course. The moral fiber gradually weakens and by the time his intercollegiate competition is over he is a victim of the system, a slave to gross and violent tastes, standing at the crossroads of Destiny. He was ysterday's headlines; he will be tomorrow's trivia. now comes the harsh test as he faces the cruel pace of this competitive world in what he considers routine, humdrum chores of business. He gets no headlines now; others who are younger are taking his place. Some former athletes make the transition rather quickly, others grope for several years and then make the adjustment, usually with the help of some good woman. Others, all to many, drift into middle age and resort to artificial stimulation to substitute for the intoxicating experiences they enjoyed in sports. Maybe sports were only partly to blame, but I believe no one would criticise a doctor who diagnosed these cases as an 'athletic injury to character suffered in youth'" Beyond Winning pg. 118-119 It's not only players. Coaches who enable these "special" guys are suffering from the same injury. |
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Post by coachweav88 on Jun 8, 2011 10:43:14 GMT -6
It's not only players. Coaches who enable these "special" guys are suffering from the same injury. That's what I was getting at with the excerpt. What I am most disappointed with in the whole situation is that Tressel was supposed to be a guy who was interested in developing his players to be good people. By not reporting this stuff, he is allowing this type of toxic environment to continue which undermines everything he is trying to instill in his players. Instead of helping them, he ends up crippling them. The high school equivilant to this would be something like the book Friday Night Lights. I fear that with the way the media is marketing HS sports as well, this is not just a DI college problem. |
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Post by coachguy83 on Jun 8, 2011 10:47:28 GMT -6
and everyone freaked out about Pryor showing up in a sports car...without ever caring that it was 4 years old and owned by his mother... not given to him by some booster or agent as many thought originally I think the major concern wasn't that he was driving a car worth several thousands of dollars, but that he had driven something like six or eight different nice vehicles while attending Ohio State. The fact that was overlooked by most people in that situation is that Pryor's liscence was suspended and he shouldn't have been driving his mom's sports car anyway. Yes I agree that the NCAA system is badly flawed and in many cases and has out lived its usefulness. When the system first came about football was pretty big business but a college education was more than fair compensation for the work because it wasn't something readily available to everyone. In the modern era coaches are making millions of dollars a year, schools are making hundreds of million and students are being "paid" in a commodity that is now readily available to most of their peers. To top it off the system keeps them from holding jobs most of the time meaning they are beholden to their school for everything. I'm pretty sure that things like tatoos are not included in an athletic scholarship so why shouldn't they be able to trade thier personal property or fame in on something that they truly want. Yes they need to choose better friends to hang around with, but the offense that got them suspended is bs at best. Steve Spurrier made a suggestion to help fix the system last week that was supported by many of the SEC coaches. He thinks that players should be given a stipend of $300 per game to be spent however they see fit. To keep the fat cats that make the rules happy he suggests that the money be paid for by the head coaches which would total around $300k per season. Since the lowest paid head coach in the SEC makes just under $1.5 Million per season they aren't going hungry. Players in smaller confrences would probably have to earn a smaller stipend, but that is really no different than professional sports. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 8, 2011 11:25:55 GMT -6
I personally see nothing wrong with the actions of any of the Ohio State players... Coach, that is exactly the type of "athletic injury" described in the post preceding yours. They knowingly chose to do something against the rules, regardless of consequences to themselves or others. As far as "everybody making money but the kids" and "those kids deserve to be paid"--it is GROSSLY more complex and intricate than those short phrases. --Nobody wants to address what is at the ULTIMATE root of the problem, because it isn't pretty. What can we do as H.S. and lower level coaches to help insulate our kids from potentially falling victim to this path? Is there anything? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 8, 2011 11:29:22 GMT -6
..., but that is really no different than professional sports. AND nobody sees the problem with that??? Because last time I checked, it ISN'T a professional sport. |
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Post by gapshoot76 on Jun 8, 2011 11:39:28 GMT -6
To defend any of the players to me is a little sketchy. Rules are rules! Whether anyone thinks the rules are right are not are a different story. But, when a rule is broken, then whatever the punishment is should be given.
I'll relate this a little to my experiences in H.S.
I had a parent contact me about their child wanting me to give the athlete a "stern talking" because she caught him chewing tobacco. Under our athletic code, he needs to be punished. I had 2 choices... take the athlete aside and give him the talking to mom wanted and hope that it was pushed under the radar and would never come back up. Or do the right thing and turn the kid into athletic code violation. I had to call that parent, tell them they had inadvertently turned their child into athletic code violation, and the kid served his suspension. This kid is also probably close to my Terrel Pryor on my team...
Different situation, I know, but still. Rules are Rules! To make exceptions to any athlete, or student, at any level, for any reason only teaches that person one thing. They can get by with doing something wrong without being punished, and that, IMO, is what is wrong!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 8, 2011 11:47:01 GMT -6
To defend any of the players to me is a little sketchy. Rules are rules! Whether anyone thinks the rules are right are not are a different story. But, when a rule is broken, then whatever the punishment is should be given. I'll relate this a little to my experiences in H.S. I had a parent contact me about their child wanting me to give the athlete a "stern talking" because she caught him chewing tobacco. Under our athletic code, he needs to be punished. I had 2 choices... take the athlete aside and give him the talking to mom wanted and hope that it was pushed under the radar and would never come back up. Or do the right thing and turn the kid into athletic code violation. I had to call that parent, tell them they had inadvertently turned their child into athletic code violation, and the kid served his suspension. This kid is also probably close to my Terrel Pryor on my team... Different situation, I know, but still. Rules are Rules! To make exceptions to any athlete, or student, at any level, for any reason only teaches that person one thing. They can get by with doing something wrong without being punished, and that, IMO, is what is wrong! Now that is a very tricky situation. Seems like something that should be covered in parent meetings. "Don't tell me about a violation of the athletic code unless you are prepared to have your son punished by the code." |
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Post by gapshoot76 on Jun 8, 2011 11:55:01 GMT -6
To defend any of the players to me is a little sketchy. Rules are rules! Whether anyone thinks the rules are right are not are a different story. But, when a rule is broken, then whatever the punishment is should be given. I'll relate this a little to my experiences in H.S. I had a parent contact me about their child wanting me to give the athlete a "stern talking" because she caught him chewing tobacco. Under our athletic code, he needs to be punished. I had 2 choices... take the athlete aside and give him the talking to mom wanted and hope that it was pushed under the radar and would never come back up. Or do the right thing and turn the kid into athletic code violation. I had to call that parent, tell them they had inadvertently turned their child into athletic code violation, and the kid served his suspension. This kid is also probably close to my Terrel Pryor on my team... Different situation, I know, but still. Rules are Rules! To make exceptions to any athlete, or student, at any level, for any reason only teaches that person one thing. They can get by with doing something wrong without being punished, and that, IMO, is what is wrong! Now that is a very tricky situation. Seems like something that should be covered in parent meetings. "Don't tell me about a violation of the athletic code unless you are prepared to have your son punished by the code." As far as I'm concerned, same should have related to Tressel. Don't try to tell me that my athlete is taking money unless your ready to get my athlete suspended. It's a code of ethics that I have to follow, and if I don't, then my job is on the line, just like Tressel's! |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 8, 2011 11:59:51 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, same should have related to Tressel. Don't try to tell me that my athlete is taking money unless your ready to get my athlete suspended. It's a code of ethics that I have to follow, and if I don't, then my job is on the line, just like Tressel's! I agree. Just to be clear, I agree with what you did 100%. I am simply saying that the sticky situation was created because now the mother might feel betrayed. I would have never thought about it before this, but now I feel that might be something I would discuss at a parents meeting. |
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dx51173
Probationary Member
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Post by dx51173 on Jun 8, 2011 12:06:35 GMT -6
Because of the money involved in collegiate athletics, it is a "win at all costs" mentality. Alumni Pay to get/keep athletes, coaches turn a blind eye to keep the "winning/$$$" ways, TV contracts to fulfill or try to get, etc. no wonder society is so screwed up. It has become a "I want it all, I want it now, and I don't want to work for it"world. As a high school coach, it is hard to keep the good athletes humbled and their head on straight when everyone is telling them how good they are and all the scouts are there, and it just gets worse.
It is what it is as long as billions of dollars are being pumped into athletics and we demand a national champion to proclaim was the best of the rest!!!
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Post by gapshoot76 on Jun 8, 2011 12:07:55 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, same should have related to Tressel. Don't try to tell me that my athlete is taking money unless your ready to get my athlete suspended. It's a code of ethics that I have to follow, and if I don't, then my job is on the line, just like Tressel's! I agree. Just to be clear, I agree with what you did 100%. I am simply saying that the sticky situation was created because now the mother might feel betrayed. I would have never thought about it before this, but now I feel that might be something I would discuss at a parents meeting. The worst part was, the mother tried to back track and say she didn't mean what she said. Sadly she had very specifically wrote those incidents in an e-mail to me and the kid fessed up to it before my could take her words back. Thankfully that mother was understanding enough to know she was wrong and she called me about a week later to me and tell me how much she respected me for doing the right thing. I can't say that most mothers in the country would have handled it that well. I know from now on I will mention at my parent meeting that no matter how I would hear of a violation, it is my duty to report it. |
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Post by coachweav88 on Jun 8, 2011 12:18:21 GMT -6
What can we do as H.S. and lower level coaches to help insulate our kids from potentially falling victim to this path? Is there anything? I think what gapshoot did is a step in the right direction and it is exactly where Tressel failed. Hold them accountable. Teach AND MODEL what it means to accept responsibility for themselves and their actions. Secondly, we have to help our student athletes keep football in proper perspective. Their education and their character are far more important than how many games they win. Like Darrin Slack says at his camps "FOOTBALL WILL END!" |
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 8, 2011 12:43:40 GMT -6
..., but that is really no different than professional sports. AND nobody sees the problem with that??? Because last time I checked, it ISN'T a professional sport. the only thing seperating NCAA football from "professional" sports is that the players do not get paid... |
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 8, 2011 12:46:22 GMT -6
Kantian ethics... just because a rule is a rule does not mean it valid or rational |
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Post by gapshoot76 on Jun 8, 2011 13:27:21 GMT -6
Kantian ethics... just because a rule is a rule does not mean it valid or rational We can go into a US history lesson on why what u just said may be true but this is a football board. Do I see the NCAA possibly beginning a big evolution sometime soon with how money is dispersed and especially in football with the championship situation. Yes I do! But. Until the rules state that a player can receive bennifits of some kind whether it be from memorabilia, boosters, agents, an NCAA paycheck, whatever it may be, it is against the rules and should be punished. Do I think the way the money is handled around the NCAA is wrong in many ways. Sure I do. But do I think a kid should be paid to play COLLEGE football. NO WAY. He gets a shcolarship to get an education. Something I had to pay for, and I'm still paying for! But that's not important because all they see is dollar signs. College is still amature athletics. Just like high school. With the rational that college kids need to be compensated then I guss the next step is highschool. Be careful what you wish for |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 8, 2011 14:04:47 GMT -6
Kantian ethics... just because a rule is a rule does not mean it valid or rational Yet choosing to break one willingly regardless of the consequences to yourself or to others again shows what the original post is talking about. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 8, 2011 14:17:56 GMT -6
AND nobody sees the problem with that??? Because last time I checked, it ISN'T a professional sport. the only thing seperating NCAA football from "professional" sports is that the players do not get paid... Absolute untrue statement. Discussing the reasons why will probably get the thread locked, but suffice to say that the statement is untrue on several levels. |
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Post by coachweav88 on Jun 8, 2011 14:25:12 GMT -6
What can we do as H.S. and lower level coaches to help insulate our kids from potentially falling victim to this path? Is there anything? This is what we need to discuss in order to prevent this from becoming another "fan" thread and being locked. Whether college kids are exploited or not is irrelevent for a majority of coaches on this forum. |
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Post by brophy on Jun 8, 2011 14:58:48 GMT -6
I personally don't have a problem with an athlete taking anabolics. However, if we are all operating under a set of guidelines which dictates our playing field (anabolics are outlawed), then one of us is simply getting over on the other unfairly Its the same principle here. Should scholarship athletes be compensated / share a piece of what they are generating? I think so....but if Georgia operates outside the agreed upon guidelines and Georgia Tech doesn't, now we have a gross competitive advantage and not in the spirit of competition in which the game/experience is founded on. If we bring our teams together for a scrimmage and agree that we're not hitting the quarterback......but during the heat of competition, you decide "this isn't realistic - we're gonna blitz the pants off your thrower". That goes against the spirit of respect and maturity. It IS interesting, though (not necessarily about tOSU situation), but how a challenging sport / competition like football can develop and nurture the admirable qualities of character, the ultra-competitive environment also enables the corruption of those very same qualities. Fire is good; it can shape metal / provide heat......but too much will burn your whole freaking house down.  Kantian ethics... just because a rule is a rule does not mean it valid or rational then you do what Bosworth did in the 80's and organize a union to have your position heard (not become an outlaw against everyone and everything propping up the very platform allowing you to enjoy success) |
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Post by coachweav88 on Jun 8, 2011 17:39:05 GMT -6
It IS interesting, though (not necessarily about tOSU situation), but how a challenging sport / competition like football can develop and nurture the admirable qualities of character, the ultra-competitive environment also enables the corruption of those very same qualities. Fire is good; it can shape metal / provide heat......but too much will burn your whole freaking house down Very good point and analogy |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 8, 2011 19:21:13 GMT -6
The coverup is always worse than the crime.
I've just been waiting to hear Tressel insist "I am not a crook." Would really make my day.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Jun 8, 2011 20:04:17 GMT -6
What do you do when the makers of the rules are violating the rules themselves?
The NCAA has been in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Laws since the very beginning, and have spent millions of dollars to get court decisions made in their favor. They are just as corrupt as anyone else.
I'm with CoachBDud on this one. The players deserve a percentage of the income they generate.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 8, 2011 20:54:53 GMT -6
I personally see nothing wrong with the actions of any of the Ohio State players... Coach, that is exactly the type of "athletic injury" described in the post preceding yours. They knowingly chose to do something against the rules, regardless of consequences to themselves or others. As far as "everybody making money but the kids" and "those kids deserve to be paid"--it is GROSSLY more complex and intricate than those short phrases. --Nobody wants to address what is at the ULTIMATE root of the problem, because it isn't pretty. What can we do as H.S. and lower level coaches to help insulate our kids from potentially falling victim to this path? Is there anything? I wonder how many of these to notch college athletes were actually held to any standards in high school athletics. I imagine that some of these kids got away with murder within their high school programs; not showing up for practice, not being held to academic standards, etc.. Personally, I think we can insulate these kids from this type of behavior by making sure they understand that they are no better than anyone else on the team. Force them to understand that it is a team sport and they are getting the lime light because the other ten guys on the field are busting their butts. And, they had better do the same. A team in our conference had an EXCELLENT FB on their roster but the kid was a PITA. He picked up a scholarship to play at the FCS level and that is no small feat for a small school ball player. But, he decided he didn't want to obey curfew the night before a semi-final game so he got his butt benched for the first half. They got lit up in that first half and lost the game. This coach could have very easily bent on it and tossed him in when things got nasty but he didn't. He stuck to his guns and sent a message to that player and every one else in the program and the town. Everyone now knows that NO ONE is above the team and the program. |
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Post by coachcb on Jun 8, 2011 21:03:58 GMT -6
To defend any of the players to me is a little sketchy. Rules are rules! Whether anyone thinks the rules are right are not are a different story. But, when a rule is broken, then whatever the punishment is should be given. I'll relate this a little to my experiences in H.S. I had a parent contact me about their child wanting me to give the athlete a "stern talking" because she caught him chewing tobacco. Under our athletic code, he needs to be punished. I had 2 choices... take the athlete aside and give him the talking to mom wanted and hope that it was pushed under the radar and would never come back up. Or do the right thing and turn the kid into athletic code violation. I had to call that parent, tell them they had inadvertently turned their child into athletic code violation, and the kid served his suspension. This kid is also probably close to my Terrel Pryor on my team... Different situation, I know, but still. Rules are Rules! To make exceptions to any athlete, or student, at any level, for any reason only teaches that person one thing. They can get by with doing something wrong without being punished, and that, IMO, is what is wrong! You did the right thing coach and not just for the program. You did right by the player. Nicotine is a nasty drug to put down as I am sure many of us have found out, the hard way. The kids caught me chewing this last year on a road trip and I called the AD and threw myself on the sword right in front of the team. I quit but then started back up this last spring. Two of my guys found out about it (no, I wasn't chewing at school or sports events) and ripped me a new one. They both quit when I turned myself in and they were p-ssed as hell when they found out I started up again. |
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Post by brophy on Jun 8, 2011 21:08:21 GMT -6
I wonder how many of these to notch college athletes were actually held to any standards in high school athletics. I imagine that some of these kids got away with murder within their high school programs; not showing up for practice, not being held to academic standards, etc.. ultimately thats what it boils down to. Whether you are Tressel or Pryor - it all comes down to what we incentivize. In my dealings with [bonafide] DI guys...its really all gonna come down to their parents. These guys are DI usually by the time they are 14-15. THEY KNOW. Their parents know. Honestly, they could sip gatorade their Senior season and show up on campus next Fall. The guys that can maintain perspective, that know they are going DI and not let it destroy their work ethic or personality are the ones with parents grounding them in character. These guys will have valid social skills (because of the former) - making it easy to establish a relationship with them. The guys who's parents don't know how to handle their son being blessed with freakish athleticism, see their son as a lottery ticket. You can develop a relationship with the kids and at the heart they are good guys.....but if your home life is messed up (and your lottery status is reinforced), WTF is coach really gonna do to you? You KNOW that no one is going to tell you "no". I'd like to say we have the ultimate say in the matter as coaches, but no matter how close you get to a kid, you can't eliminate the home life (and the 14 years prior) ** it isn't one or the other, either......there are more good kids, more good families than knuckleheads, but the homelives that enable (and have been enabling the exceptionalism) kids way before they get to HS, spoil the young men from maturing. |
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Post by Coach.A on Jun 8, 2011 21:45:14 GMT -6
they sold THEIR PROPERTY for some tattoos... big whoop. I am sure there are much worse violations going on NCAA True there are much worse violations, but the NCAA can't ignore the minor violations because it can become a very slippery slope. What if the tattoo shop near "school A" offers a tattoo in exchange for a jersey, but the tattoo shop near "school B" offers 10 tattoos in exchange for a jersey.....and the store near "school C" offers $1000 worth of clothing in exchange for a jersey, etc. I don't pretend to have a solution to these issues, but I've been an athletic director and I've learned that making exceptions for violations of the rules will cause the system to collapse in a hurry. This is a very complex issue with no easy solutions. The NCAA is often heavily critisized for how they handle these issues, but I actually sympathize with them. |
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Post by jjkuenzel on Jun 8, 2011 23:39:55 GMT -6
There is no such thing as right or wrong. Only just and unjust. That which you can justify and that which you can not.
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