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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 7, 2007 18:07:30 GMT -6
veer, midline, rocket, counter option, belly slide, trap
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Post by davecisar on Jul 7, 2007 18:19:57 GMT -6
I dont want to call flexbone double wing because well that invokes images of guys lining up foot to foot and then I get queasy Some people get quesy about watching option football (Im not one of them) ones man ofal is another mans delicacy.
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Post by coachjaz on Jul 7, 2007 18:40:20 GMT -6
I hear ya coach - I just an not a fan of the double wing
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Post by Coach Bruce on Jul 7, 2007 18:40:50 GMT -6
(Showing my ignorance), I thought midline was an offense itself and i thought Rocket was a type of motion. (Don't blast me)!
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Post by davecisar on Jul 7, 2007 18:59:59 GMT -6
I hear ya coach - I just an not a fan of the double wing
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Post by davecisar on Jul 7, 2007 19:07:55 GMT -6
Thats ok it is the only offense that is officially allowed to be slammed regularly here on this forum, LOL. Im not a fan of other offenses, but I wont bother to mention what they are or why. I am however a big fan of all "equalizer" offenses that allow teams without size, the ability to perform well "in space", or athleticism the chance to compete. That includes the option offenses Navy and Air Force like to run ( will be very interesting how Air Force does without the option and DeBerry), DW, SW, Wing T and Dead T etc. Im a substance over style guy, kids want to win, doesnt matter how much it looks like the NFL if they can compete IMHO.
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Post by Coach Bruce on Jul 7, 2007 19:58:01 GMT -6
That was so nice, he had to say it twice..lol
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Post by davecisar on Jul 8, 2007 4:59:35 GMT -6
FYI grasshopper Rocket is a type of motion, midline is a play that can be run out of a variety of offenses.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 8, 2007 6:40:37 GMT -6
I disagree... Any offense that can be everything, isn't anything... High school, and I'm assuming this is high school, multiplicity is costly... and most programs don't have the time to pay... I believe it best, at the high school level, to do a few things well, and hang your hat on those things... as opposed to being everything... Im with you. jack of all trades master of none isnt where its at.
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Post by airraider on Jul 8, 2007 7:52:44 GMT -6
I have always thought of a Wing as the #1 and him being off the line.. and a slot as being #2 and him being off the line..
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Post by Coach Bruce on Jul 8, 2007 9:32:56 GMT -6
What is the difference in splits between a wing and a slot. In a flex or single or doublewing, how far off and back are the wings as oppossed to how far the slots would line up? it is hard to find reading material and DVD on the Double Slot...suggestions?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 8, 2007 11:42:09 GMT -6
Coach Bruce...first thing you need to do is realize that the vernacular is SO program specific, that there are no hard and fast rules. Rocket is a motion to some.... it is both a motion and and toss play to others...it is a screen to others.... etc. etc.
Just have to kind of read the context, AND most importantly don't be afraid to say "I don't know what you mean when you say __________.
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Post by brophy on Jul 8, 2007 11:52:49 GMT -6
There is a LOT of assumption going on in this thread, then, I guess these are formations........what you run out of that formation is your offense (philosophy) If you run "double slot" what is it (plays) assumed that you are running? When I hear double-slot, I'm thinking a twins look on each side (RnS)...but you could run anything out of that
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Post by davecisar on Jul 8, 2007 12:35:04 GMT -6
How does a reciever on the LOS legally go in motion ( lark, rook)?
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Post by dolomite on Jul 8, 2007 19:29:16 GMT -6
I disagree... Any offense that can be everything, isn't anything... High school, and I'm assuming this is high school, multiplicity is costly... and most programs don't have the time to pay... I believe it best, at the high school level, to do a few things well, and hang your hat on those things... as opposed to being everything... Im with you. jack of all trades master of none isnt where its at. OK--- I can't take it any more, lol. Too think that taking elements from different offenses is not a wise thing, is totally lopsided from anything that I've learned about football. Take the full house T, and wishbone formations, now think about the wing-t. Take some rules from all three and put them together. Make a few changes and what do you have? ?? The DW. If you run your offense systematic than it will be just that. To think that you have to have a label on your offense to be successful is ludicrous. My double slot has wing-t principals, meshed with some triple. I guess it would be more legit if I were to name it.......I'll call it the............Heinz 57 offense!!!!! lol. Get real!!! I hate it when people are so narrow minded!!!! Markham probably felt the same!!!
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Post by rip60zgo on Jul 8, 2007 19:47:42 GMT -6
How does a reciever on the LOS legally go in motion ( lark, rook)? What brophy posted are the original motion/formation calls from Mouse Davis and the Run-and-Shoot. If #1 is going to go in motion, then you can just come out with #2 on the LOS and #1 off, or you can shift them and then send the motion, or you can send the motion, have the #2 step on, and then the motion man must come set prior to the snap. Not much different than when an I-form team flops the TE and the 2 receivers have to step on/off depending upon the strength.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 8, 2007 21:26:00 GMT -6
Im with you. jack of all trades master of none isnt where its at. OK--- I can't take it any more, lol. Too think that taking elements from different offenses is not a wise thing, is totally lopsided from anything that I've learned about football. Take the full house T, and wishbone formations, now think about the wing-t. Take some rules from all three and put them together. Make a few changes and what do you have? ?? The DW. If you run your offense systematic than it will be just that. To think that you have to have a label on your offense to be successful is ludicrous. My double slot has wing-t principals, meshed with some triple. I guess it would be more legit if I were to name it.......I'll call it the............Heinz 57 offense!!!!! lol. Get real!!! I hate it when people are so narrow minded!!!! Markham probably felt the same!!! 1. Discuss the points, not the emotion... no one said anything about borrowing elements of different offenses to CREATE YOUR SYSTEM is wrong! What was said, was, "I believe it best, at the high school level, to do a few things well, and hang your hat on those things... as opposed to being everything... ""2. Don Markham never felt that way... had 6 plays at the most... each play answered a question that the defense may pose... that's what a SYSTEM does... as opposed to a potpourri, in which you have your 150 plays, out of your 150 formations, the majority of which aren't executed properly. After reviewing your tape... if a coach can't say... "they are an option team"... "they are a zone team"... "they are a power team"... or something... then you my friend... are in trouble! 3. Your Wing T, with Triple tendencies... call it what you want... but after a tape of game film... you will either be a wing t team, an option team, a wing T team that runs option, or a bad team that doesn't know what it wants to do... 4. First rule of football, is to keep doing it, till they can stop it. You have 60 plays... how many goes to your midline, iV, OV plays? less than 20? You're not an option team? How many times do you block down, kick out and lead through? Less than 20? You're not a wing T team, you're just a team that likes to align in a wing formation. How many of your 60 plays are passes? Less than 20? You are not Air Raid!! You can't take it anymore? Others are narrow minded? Entirely too emotional Dolomite... and you are normally so level headed...
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Post by dolomite on Jul 8, 2007 23:02:49 GMT -6
You can't take it anymore? Others are narrow minded?
Entirely too emotional Dolomite... and you are normally so level headed...[/quote]
I guess I could've done a better job of conveying my attitude through proper tone. I was being a little sarcastic. I wasn't trying to name call, or put anyone's ideas down. I didn't mean to sound harsh. Now back to our fundamental dis agreement.
In my situation, there is no way I am running 60 plays. Only 30% of my entire offense is passing. My option game is ran with orbit motion and only makes up 20% of what we do. The wing-t base rocket and jet package is the other 50% of our offense. Everything that we do is very systematic. We run our rocket to set up our IV & OV. We run our jet to set up our mid line, ice, and jet counter. We do all of this to set up our play action seam routes combined with quick hitting screens. We are going to be hard to scheme against. We run very few plays out of 6 different formations including our goal line package. I think that the rocket meshes well with the IV & OV. I like the fact that we can run few plays and mesh them together. I also like the fact that you can't label us. If you start to shut our inside game down we will bounce it outside. If your keying on our motion we will counter you. If your corners are coming up hill hard to stop the run we will throw the seam. If your corners are easily blocked we will screen you. That is just my preference. These are just my ideas and beliefs. I think that both trains of thought work. If you can execute your plays and have a rhyme for your reason, than you have a system. I was just making the point that you don't have to hang your hat on a tried and true system. The problem with any system is, there is problems. For example- It's hard to go with 4 verticals in the wing-t, it's hard to have a powerful inside running game in the gun-spread. Each of these systems are very effective and have their complimentary plays. The true Delaware wing-t has several formations that the run out of. Toward the end of Tubby's reign they were running a lot of IV/OV with their regular set. I like the balance that the double slot brings. On the other hand I can run every play in my arsenal by moving my SE over giving a trips look. Now we are unbalanced running the same plays. This is an element that I love about the double slot. Now of course this is all just chalk talk and it always doesn't go how it's drawn up. That is the beauty behind it. This is why our game is the greatest on earth and why this forum is the best coaches board on the net!!!!
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Post by dolomite on Jul 8, 2007 23:23:50 GMT -6
You said-
"4. First rule of football, is to keep doing it, till they can stop it. You have 60 plays... how many goes to your midline, iV, OV plays? less than 20? You're not an option team? How many times do you block down, kick out and lead through? Less than 20? You're not a wing T team, you're just a team that likes to align in a wing formation. How many of your 60 plays are passes? Less than 20? You are not Air Raid!!"
That is the great thing about what we do. One week we can shove our option game down people's throats, the next week we can run our jet/rocket package, the following week we can do all of the above. BTW-I will never be an Air Raid guy, LOL!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by khalfie on Jul 8, 2007 23:30:13 GMT -6
In my situation, there is no way I am running 60 plays. Only 30% of my entire offense is passing. My option game is ran with orbit motion and only makes up 20% of what we do. The wing-t base rocket and jet package is the other 50% of our offense. Everything that we do is very systematic. We run our rocket to set up our IV & OV. We run our jet to set up our mid line, ice, and jet counter. We do all of this to set up our play action seam routes combined with quick hitting screens. We are going to be hard to scheme against. We run very few plays out of 6 different formations including our goal line package. I think that the rocket meshes well with the IV & OV. I like the fact that we can run few plays and mesh them together. I also like the fact that you can't label us. If you start to shut our inside game down we will bounce it outside. If your keying on our motion we will counter you. If your corners are coming up hill hard to stop the run we will throw the seam. If your corners are easily blocked we will screen you. That is just my preference. Now of course this is all just chalk talk and it always doesn't go how it's drawn up. That is the beauty behind it. This is why our game is the greatest on earth and why this forum is the best coaches board on the net!!!! Glad to hear its good spirited... but... For a guy who's against being labled a system? If 70% of your scheme is Wing T option... then you are a Wing T option guy... Call it Heinz 57 if you want... but after reviewing your tape, and seeing the Rockets and Jets, the traps and bootlegs off of it... we'd say yup... he's Wing T... And then we'd see your 20% option... and say... wait a minute... they're trying to run a little option? Why? Is that their inside game? Why aren't they just sticking to their trap game? How much practice time do you think they give the option? When do they run option? Let's make them run option becuase, they aren't as good as they are with that Wing T stuff. Passing wise... we have to look out for those seams... You'd have us on the screens, being that you'd probably show it only once per game... All I'm saying is... D-coord's don't have forever, we have a week to prepare... if we are going to do something, we have to stop your best 4 runs, your 2 go to passes, and yout best counter, while letting our reads and athleticism take care of the rest. When it comes down to your best 7 plays... that's your identity... that's your system... that's your inside run, off tackle, outside run, and counter. That's your 2 go to passes, and that trick play you like to use... That's your system, that's your identity... call it what you will, but those plays will identify you as a Wing T, Power, Option, Zone, 5 Wide, Double Slot, Air Raid, whatever... And if they don't... if your best 7 plays have no rhyme or reason to them... are 7 different inside runs, midline option, trap, FB Dive, FB Belly, and FB Iso... then you my friend have no identity, you have a go to player, and the game quickly boils down to our ability to stop your go to player.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 9, 2007 8:37:38 GMT -6
How does a reciever on the LOS legally go in motion ( lark, rook)? step off los (while another player steps on the los) - pause for 1 count - go in motion ... you were serious, right?
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Post by davecisar on Jul 9, 2007 8:59:13 GMT -6
The formation showed him on the LOS, hence from that formation he cant go in motion unless the formation changes ,one player moves off and another moves on.
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Post by dubber on Jul 9, 2007 9:21:35 GMT -6
How does a reciever on the LOS legally go in motion ( lark, rook)? step off los (while another player steps on the los) - pause for 1 count - go in motion ... you were serious, right? totally off subject, but when you do this, motion the split across, the corner route on the closed side is awesome, especially to the field. Plus, you get a number 1 rec matched up against a LB It's just another simple motion that the D has to account for, and requires no extra teaching on your part. One thing I will say about double slot, it is probably the best offense for shifts and motions. Ton of stuff you can do, and you can keep it very simple. Few plays + a lot of shifting (creating match-ups) = defensive headache Add that to the dilemma of how to align to a slot (treat as a TE or reduce over the OT?), and that makes the double slot a very viable offense.................the best? well, if I had 3 250 lbs. running backs and 7 blocks of granite, I'd sure as hell be running the Dead-T...........
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Post by dolomite on Jul 9, 2007 13:02:54 GMT -6
totally off subject, but when you do this, motion the split across, the corner route on the closed side is awesome, especially to the field. Plus, you get a number 1 rec matched up against a LB It's just another simple motion that the D has to account for, and requires no extra teaching on your part. One thing I will say about double slot, it is probably the best offense for shifts and motions. Ton of stuff you can do, and you can keep it very simple. Few plays + a lot of shifting (creating match-ups) = defensive headache Add that to the dilemma of how to align to a slot (treat as a TE or reduce over the OT?), and that makes the double slot a very viable offense.................the best? well, if I had 3 250 lbs. running backs and 7 blocks of granite, I'd sure as hell be running the Dead-T........... I agree totally. Off the subject- Having trips to one side in DS can quickly turn into 5 wide. The weak side slot can run a variety of patterns where as the F can get to the flat. How does a defense adjust to that? You would have to be very tendency heavy for a defense to be able to contain all of this action.
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Post by dolomite on Jul 9, 2007 13:14:21 GMT -6
In my situation, there is no way I am running 60 plays. Only 30% of my entire offense is passing. My option game is ran with orbit motion and only makes up 20% of what we do. The wing-t base rocket and jet package is the other 50% of our offense. Everything that we do is very systematic. We run our rocket to set up our IV & OV. We run our jet to set up our mid line, ice, and jet counter. We do all of this to set up our play action seam routes combined with quick hitting screens. We are going to be hard to scheme against. We run very few plays out of 6 different formations including our goal line package. I think that the rocket meshes well with the IV & OV. I like the fact that we can run few plays and mesh them together. I also like the fact that you can't label us. If you start to shut our inside game down we will bounce it outside. If your keying on our motion we will counter you. If your corners are coming up hill hard to stop the run we will throw the seam. If your corners are easily blocked we will screen you. That is just my preference. Now of course this is all just chalk talk and it always doesn't go how it's drawn up. That is the beauty behind it. This is why our game is the greatest on earth and why this forum is the best coaches board on the net!!!! Glad to hear its good spirited... but... For a guy who's against being labled a system? If 70% of your scheme is Wing T option... then you are a Wing T option guy... Call it Heinz 57 if you want... but after reviewing your tape, and seeing the Rockets and Jets, the traps and bootlegs off of it... we'd say yup... he's Wing T... And then we'd see your 20% option... and say... wait a minute... they're trying to run a little option? Why? Is that their inside game? Why aren't they just sticking to their trap game? How much practice time do you think they give the option? When do they run option? Let's make them run option becuase, they aren't as good as they are with that Wing T stuff. Passing wise... we have to look out for those seams... You'd have us on the screens, being that you'd probably show it only once per game... All I'm saying is... D-coord's don't have forever, we have a week to prepare... if we are going to do something, we have to stop your best 4 runs, your 2 go to passes, and yout best counter, while letting our reads and athleticism take care of the rest. When it comes down to your best 7 plays... that's your identity... that's your system... that's your inside run, off tackle, outside run, and counter. That's your 2 go to passes, and that trick play you like to use... That's your system, that's your identity... call it what you will, but those plays will identify you as a Wing T, Power, Option, Zone, 5 Wide, Double Slot, Air Raid, whatever... And if they don't... if your best 7 plays have no rhyme or reason to them... are 7 different inside runs, midline option, trap, FB Dive, FB Belly, and FB Iso... then you my friend have no identity, you have a go to player, and the game quickly boils down to our ability to stop your go to player. I understand completely what your saying. Here is where we disagree- you think that we won't be able to run our option game as well because we will do it less in a game. What you're not considering is that we will rep each series into a complete practice. We will spend an equal amount of time on each facet of our game untill all of the pieces fall together. Week 1 we should be polished enough to run any part of our offense. This is why we run such a limited amount of plays. People can call us wing-t option, I don't really care. The fact of the matter is we will have a multi-dimensional offense that will give disciplined defenses fits. How do you prepare to stop an efficient option, jet/rocket offense, in one week? You are obviously defensive minded. Lets keep this going, I am getting some good stuff out of this!!! ;D ;D ;D BTW I AM NOT OPPOSED TO ANY SYSTEM. I am a huge fan of the DW, VEER, AND ROCKET/JET WING-T STUFF. I am trying to mesh what I believe in into a system that works for the kids that I have. If I could figure out how to incorporate the DW into our system I would.
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Post by brophy on Jul 9, 2007 13:23:20 GMT -6
if you run Wing-T, then run Wing-T with a slot instead of a wing............nothing fundamentally changes FOR THE OFFENSE.
For the defense, THEY have to make the adjustment to keep up with how the offense (the people with the ball) can potentially attack them.
Formations shouldn't change your philosophy. They should just be a tool to deliver your attack.
A 43 team isn't inherently a Cover 2 team. The 43 (personnel) is the delivery method (formation) that a DC uses to defense an opponent.
Philosophy determines your system, system can determine your formations.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 9, 2007 14:03:21 GMT -6
I understand completely what your saying. Here is where we disagree- you think that we won't be able to run our option game as well because we will do it less in a game. What you're not considering is that we will rep each series into a complete practice. We will spend an equal amount of time on each facet of our game untill all of the pieces fall together. Week 1 we should be polished enough to run any part of our offense.
If you can do this... you will win a lot of games.
The deal in football, as I understand it of course, is that you have a limited amount of time, and have to be very particular with what it is you are going to do well.
The investment in time that it takes to be a good option team, learning the reads, the soft mesh, the change up in blocking schemes from the veer to the j-block, knowing when to make it power and remove the read all together, takes considerable amounts of time, many option coaches will tell you it takes years...
So when some one tells me they are going to run option, I believe they are saying they are going to invest that type of time, to do otherwise, speaks of not being an option coach, but a coach with 1 or two option plays.
Similarly with 5 wide, air raid, and Run and Shoot coaches... the time it takes to develop a HS QB that can be 50% accurate or better, presnap and post snap read, have the timing necessary to adjust to man / zone / false looks, takes an awful amount of time. So much so, that you can't have an intricate run game married to it... Its why the Wing T - 5 Wide haven't been married... or the Double Wing and Run & Shoot... You'd think those two would fit perfectly being they are basically the same formations... but they call for entirelly two different types of practice regimes.
Again... if you can marry all the best parts of so many different philosophies, and execute them well... then you will undoubtedly beat me, and will have the type of talent that could probably win State. However, when you have that type of talent... the better coaches I've seen, usually align them in I formation... and just beat you every which way but loose.
That's all I was sayin'
Every system costs... and usually we don't have enough time to pay for the timing on the Rocket Toss, its counter and Boot, and still be able to run IV, OV, and Midline, as well as a complete screen game, in addition to super power, criss cross counter, and run and shoot, go and slide Combos.
There's not enough time in the day.
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Post by tog on Jul 9, 2007 16:25:57 GMT -6
it all boils down to having carryover within the system that allows multiplicity
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Post by coachorr on Jul 10, 2007 3:23:40 GMT -6
Here me out, because this is a two part statement.
My point is, if you are trying to be a wing t team in a double slot formation, you are outnumbered. I just did that for two years and it is in my opinion ineffective. Just by running misdirection and power football, how would you beat a 4-2 with wide OLB's? Unless you are optioning someone you are outnumbered. Every time we went to three step motion to get backs into place we were outnumbered; all defenses had to do was walk the playside OLB up on the line and read the release of the slot. If he down blocks it is a run, if he releases then it is a pass. We had counter trey traps and all kinds of misdirection stuff. What was the problem? Well let me tell you what I believe is part two of the arguement.
I think that the double slot is the most verstile of all of the formations especially if you are willing to option and attack with the QB. In my opinion a team willing to run option like mideline, trap option, speed or even possibly veer and attack with the QB, then it is one of the best formations to put your team into. If you are willing to run fly, jet or rocket sweep, with all of the counter dives off of those motions then you would really be cooking with gas.
Speed option would have beat the wide 4-4 or as I described the 4-2. Run and shoot, forget about it, it would have been lights out against what teams were trying to do to us.
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Post by dolomite on Jul 10, 2007 5:14:55 GMT -6
you said- "My point is, if you are trying to be a wing t team in a double slot formation, you are outnumbered. I just did that for two years and it is in my opinion ineffective. Just by running misdirection and power football, how would you beat a 4-2 with wide OLB's? Unless you are optioning someone you are outnumbered. Every time we went to three step motion to get backs into place we were outnumbered; all defenses had to do was walk the playside OLB up on the line and read the release of the slot. If he down blocks it is a run, if he releases then it is a pass. We had counter trey traps and all kinds of misdirection stuff. What was the problem? Well let me tell you what I believe is part two of the arguement."
I understand this totally. If 4-2, or for that matter any defense, is reading our slots then we adjust our for formation like so-
----------t-g-c-g-t----x---y-- ---------a----q----b----------- ---------------f-----------------
If they are screaming up line backers or safeties we can always move our F behind the strong side tackle. This takes away our IV but opens up the Rocket/Jet sweep. By moving a SE over we are now out flanking the defense. If they match us than we will counter the hell out of them, ie YW Blue scheme. Please give me some feedback. I am interested in your take on going unbalanced in the DS. IMO going unbalanced is just like being in the wing-t's red and blue formation. The only difference is we are not running off tackle traditional wing-t stuff. We are more of the hybrid Wes Elrod wing-t, Jet and Rocket. This is the fundamental difference. When I say we are running some wing-t out of the DS I really mean we are the hybrid variety. This has turned into a very good discussion. Lets keep it going. Kalfinator- what is your take on us going unbalanced?
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