|
Post by bulldog on Mar 26, 2007 17:36:01 GMT -6
Interesting article in Coach Magazine from John T. Reed. He talks about code breaking - how simple most team's codes' are - and how we don't break available codes. He specifically mentions that code breaking is not against any of the written coach's ethics. He draws the line at listening to private speech, but is willing to break any code he can readily see from the stands. This raises a couple of questions:
- is it 'unethical' to break codes and 'steal' signals? - have you ever had your codes broken? - would you use the broken codes of you had them>
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Mar 26, 2007 17:43:01 GMT -6
Interesting article in Coach Magazine from John T. Reed. He talks about code breaking - how simple most team's codes' are - and how we don't break available codes. He specifically mentions that code breaking is not against any of the written coach's ethics. He draws the line at listening to private speech, but is willing to break any code he can readily see from the stands. This raises a couple of questions: - is it 'unethical' to break codes and 'steal' signals? - have you ever had your codes broken? - would you use the broken codes of you had them> 1. No. It's public and breaking it is fair game. It's up to the coach to make it hard to steal. Really, how is it different from getting tendencies? 2. I think so. 3. Absolutely. A caveat. Codes aren't hard to change. If you put too much energy into stealin the signals you may neglect other, more productive, areas.
|
|
|
Post by fbairattack on Mar 26, 2007 17:44:25 GMT -6
I like to go no huddle so... if the other coach is willing to take the chance that we snap the ball before they get their call in because they where trying to read or signals its fine by me...even if they do steal a signal and get their call in they still have to stop it...
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Mar 26, 2007 17:47:19 GMT -6
Dog - I had a high school baseball coach who taught us how to break as many codes as possible. He swore that we/he won many a game with it. He even attempted to write a book about stealing signs etc. I saw a draft of it, but it never got published.
(this is when I played) In a section playoff game one of our baseball coaches stole the steal sign from the opposing team. I was the catcher. Needless to say we pitched out the both times they stole. I was grateful because it made me look like a champ when I threw both guys out by 10 feet.
If a coach didn't want things stolen he could have the QB come over and get a verbal signal. Then we'd put a lip reader in the stands with binoculars.
I say the signs, etc. are part of the game on both sides. If a coach or his staff is going to spend time trying to figure things out then you have the advantage. They are going to worry about that more than trying to stop you, etc.
I think it's part of the game for both teams and is fun. I don't think it's unethical. If a guy doesn't want his codes broken, make them more deceptive!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by tvt50 on Mar 26, 2007 19:05:49 GMT -6
I know of a team that won a regional championship because of "stealing" the other teams signals in their no huddle offense. The sidelines were calling the play before it got out of the QBs mouth, they were fumbling the ball everywhere and didnt know what to do. The second half they were huddling for the first time in years. Their players were going back to the sidelines telling their coaches, THEY KNOW OUR SIGNALS. LOL!!!!
|
|
|
Post by jackedup on Mar 26, 2007 20:31:53 GMT -6
I think there is a limit to stealing signals though... I don't believe it is right to have 2 cameras going when scouting. One on the signals and one on the field. I just think its outside the realm of game. It's not what football is supposed to be about. Now, if you are in a game and you pick up signals, then fine.
Just my 2 cents!
|
|
|
Post by jhanawa on Mar 26, 2007 21:00:13 GMT -6
Years ago I scouted a team and "stole" most of their signals. Our Defense looked like 11 All Americans in the first half. What really stunk was that we signaled in that they were going to run a Trap and they did, we missed the tackle and the kid broke it. We lost by 6... On that note, I've always felt it important to have two sets of signals and also use wristbands, multiple ways of communicating the play is important.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Mar 27, 2007 8:18:50 GMT -6
I think it was Steve Spurier who once said after being accused of stealing signals, If your worried get new signals. We had a case of that this year in our area. A no huddle spread team got beat by their arch rival. The HC of the no huddle team was the OC at a local college and ran the same system after he took the high school job. Needless to say a former player/assistant of his was on the other staff of course the whole stealing signals thing came up to which the other HC basically used the quote above. Was pretty funny to watch and listen to the whole back and forth. Would be a no brainer for me to switch signals if I knew someone on an opposing staff knew my system. Also makes me glad we do it the old fashioned way and run the play to the huddle with a wr
|
|
|
Post by tvt50 on Mar 27, 2007 8:59:16 GMT -6
Jacked up, What if they used games that were broadcast on TV to steal signals? (Wider view)
|
|
|
Post by realdawg on Mar 27, 2007 9:12:52 GMT -6
We are spread no huddle and have never had our signals stole, but have had our opponent figure out our verbal code the QB calls the play with twice in 6 years. We have stole some signals from our opponents. Our baseball coach coaches our RB's and he is great at stealing signals. However, as someone mentioned you are risking getting caught if the other team is going no huddle. So our DC gives his play call and our RB coach tells me the other teams play call since I have the loudest mouth, and I scream out WATCH ISO!!!!! or whatever the play is
|
|
|
Post by donaldduck on Mar 27, 2007 9:15:00 GMT -6
I steal the catcher's signals every game. Nothing unethical about it. If you're that worried about it in football, either use wristbands (we do) or use multiple coaches to signal plays and name the "hot" coach at the beginning of each quarter or series.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2007 9:47:48 GMT -6
A few years back we had a few of our frosh coaches want to steal signal for a playoff game and they worked on it all week and thought they had it down. But they were wrong ONCE and I lost confidence in it. If you can't be right 100 percent of the time on something like that it's not worth it to me.
Is it unethical? I can't say that. I know people try to steal mine when I send stuff in and I don't think they're cheating but I tell my kids that they have to do it in order to stop us and used it in a pregame speech that I'd just send over one of my wristbands to their sideline and they can know every play and it won't matter.
I guess when it comes to watching blocking schemes, protections, routes, tendencies, etc. I don't have time to worry about stealing their signals.
We spend Monday thru Thursday worrying about what WE do.
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Mar 27, 2007 11:26:55 GMT -6
I have charted numbers put up on a white board (corresponding to the wrist band) and written down what play it was so when the number came up we know what play was coming. But thats the other coaches fault for using a huge white board with a number that the fans can see written on it to signal in plays.
|
|
|
Post by cqmiller on Mar 27, 2007 11:27:37 GMT -6
If I've done my job as a coach, then I should be able to tell the defense/offense what I'm going to do, and still be able to execute. It's no secret that on 3rd & 1, I'll be running either Power or Iso (depending on the base front)...But if I've coached up my guys, there should be no way you can stop it...
I give out my playbooks to ANYONE that wants them...all you gotta do is scout me once or twice and you basically know my philosophy anyway...no secrets, just execute.
|
|
|
Post by zacoach102 on Apr 7, 2007 13:58:48 GMT -6
I wouldn't do it. Prepare your kids to play based on scouting, preparation during practice, and executing on game night.
In my opinion, it is unethical. But that's just me. People who are proud about succeeding at it are not people I would want my son learning the game from.
Hey, just win or lose the game based on execution.
|
|
|
Post by briangilbert on Apr 7, 2007 14:27:26 GMT -6
We beat a very good team that went no huddle because we stole their signals... One of our assistants actually walked to the opposing team's sideline when he was scouting them and was asking players what the calls were... How funny is that.
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on Apr 7, 2007 21:03:32 GMT -6
I saw that article as well. I was alright with the content except when he started saying you should take a video camera into a stadium and video the other coach - that is unethical!!!
|
|
|
Post by coachjim on Apr 8, 2007 2:29:58 GMT -6
I think it depends on the age group of the kids and whether or not your main goal is "winning." As a competitive individual it is extremely hard for me to refrain from doing whatever I can to win, hell we used to be taught to throw dirt in people's eyes back in the 80's when I played. However, at youth level, I now understand it is about teaching fundamentals and having the kids return next year. Not because they want to win but because they love the game and being there.
With that said, at the high school level and beyond where you are fighting every year as a coach to keep your job and winning is more imporant than anything... you do whatever it takes. Scouting and knowing your opponent doesn't just fall into your lap and win games. You have to have those special skills and personnel to accomplish this edge and if you have it, you have it. If you don't, welcome to the year 2007.
I wonder if there were ethical questions about motion or deception when those important advances in the game began to win games for teams. I wonder how many teams that didn't adapt, made it to the playoffs.
This idea isn't new or going away. If it's done right, you just might grab the edge. If you ignore it... well then good luck and I hope that your execution is perfect because it better be. Otherwise, you'll be watching the playoffs from the bleachers.
Sorry if that is harsh but nice guys finish last. IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Apr 8, 2007 10:03:05 GMT -6
We beat a very good team that went no huddle because we stole their signals... One of our assistants actually walked to the opposing team's sideline when he was scouting them and was asking players what the calls were... How funny is that. Thats not funny, that is pathetic if you ask me.
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Apr 8, 2007 11:13:54 GMT -6
We beat a very good team that went no huddle because we stole their signals... One of our assistants actually walked to the opposing team's sideline when he was scouting them and was asking players what the calls were... How funny is that. Thats not funny, that is pathetic if you ask me. Somebody has to say it: Pathetic? Maybe, even probably, no- it is. Unethical? Without a doubt. Funny? Yeah, in the "put your head down, cover your eyes, shake your head and chuckle" kind of way. Sort of like waching Burt Reynolds drilling Nitschke in the 'nads.
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 8, 2007 11:37:14 GMT -6
I did it as a GA in college. Stole signals and relayed them down to the OC. It really was a waste of time, because with proper breakdowns, you know the tendencies and what is coming. It's your ability to coach the kids all week to stay in a position to stop these plays that counts.
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Apr 8, 2007 13:18:38 GMT -6
I never found it to be very useful. Most of the time I think it's just misdirected effort.
|
|
|
Post by jackedup on Apr 8, 2007 13:21:04 GMT -6
Again, I think that if you can pick up on a coaches' signals during the course of the game then great... use them. But I know I have the coaches with me look for substitutions and their positions. I break down the defense or offense into sections for people to watch. I would never have someone watch the other sides signals or plays purposefully. I think it takes away from what I teach to my players. Just me!
|
|
|
Post by optioncoach on Apr 8, 2007 13:30:29 GMT -6
Code breaking? What's next, double agent coaches and transfer students? I suppose I have to start a disinformation program in my school.
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Apr 8, 2007 13:45:38 GMT -6
Code breaking? What's next, double agent coaches and transfer students? I suppose I have to start a disinformation program in my school. Why not use it if you have it? Really, how are hand signals different from just yelling in the play? As I've said, I haven't found it to be particularly useful but if somebody can do it without then why not? Defensively, we use hand signals but we take measures to prevent them from being stolen. It doesn't take much. If somebody gets them, though, then more power to them.
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Apr 8, 2007 16:04:02 GMT -6
Thats not funny, that is pathetic if you ask me. Somebody has to say it: Pathetic? Maybe, even probably, no- it is. Unethical? Without a doubt. Funny? Yeah, in the "put your head down, cover your eyes, shake your head and chuckle" kind of way. Sort of like waching Burt Reynolds drilling Nitschke in the 'nads. There is a big difference between you sitting up in the booth or on the opposite sidelines stealing signals and you going down on the teams sidelines asking the kids what signals mean. I have heard of teams sending people to the other team's practice to film their practice during the week. Both of these should result in someone losing their job. Because that is outright cheating.
|
|
|
Post by briangilbert on Apr 9, 2007 0:59:06 GMT -6
I was on the staff but was not aware that he was on their sideline until the week after the game, so it wasn't like any of us on the staff could have prevented it. It is out right cheating no doubt but we were not caught. I personally would never tell someone to do it; or do it myself. I would definitely though watch a team's signals to see if they can be stolen.
In the game we won where we stole the signals we waited to call our defense until they called their play and we were right on every play where the ball was going. They finished with about 60 yards of total offense as a result.
This is a perfect reason why a coach should know exactly who is on your sideline.
|
|
|
Post by briangilbert on Apr 9, 2007 1:00:28 GMT -6
Also I'm not defending the action it's unethical, but I do not regret using the information we had once we had it. It would be like taking a test in HS and before walking into the room someone gave you all of the answers. I would think most of us would use that information to our advantage regardless of whether or not we'd admit to it.
|
|
|
Post by coachjim on Apr 9, 2007 5:20:24 GMT -6
"I have heard of teams sending people to the other team's practice to film their practice during the week. Both of these should result in someone losing their job. Because that is outright cheating."
Airraider? We had this occur last year, frequently. At the youth level, is this still considered cheating (another team filming your practices?) It's a public field, how do you stop this from occurring or even prove it? If I can keep them from doing it this year, we might have half a chance.
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Apr 9, 2007 9:20:47 GMT -6
I would bring it up at the pre-season coaches meeting if yall do have one of those.
We had a really good season this year and of course every odd car we saw sitting up on the hill was had that thought. Although it was probably just some parent.
But I have heard of situations around here where people actually got caught doing such a thing.
I can really see a team such as a 5 wide offense wanting to know how the other team was going to defense them.
Brian, I wasnt insinuating that you had anything to do with that act. But that guy on your staff should have gotten the boot.
|
|