mikeger
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mikeger on Jan 28, 2008 7:14:38 GMT -6
Dear Coaches
I am trying to setup an amateur program (no school) for a team in europe.
These guys are ages 18-28 Now this is completely different from the states,
as many of them are in their first year of football. It is quite hard for coaches
to establish football here overseas. But anyway, I try to explain to you what I am facing.
A team of 30 players, no exceptional athletes, many 1st year of football.
Most of them useable as RBs, WRs, only 2-3 OL/DLs.
First thing that came in to my mind was a wing program. But I only know
youth programs that run Double Wing.
Coaches, my question is: Why is there no Double Wing above HS anymore?
Would you recommend me to give it a try with the team I described?
Are there certain aspects that are not possible above youth?
Thanks in advance!
Mike
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 7:31:16 GMT -6
First, let me answer your question about the dw- it is being run successfully at every level from semi pro thru youth. It is being run with great success at the high school level. It will be seen shortly at the NAIA college level too from what I am told as Don Markham was recently hired to be an AD and Head football coach - starting a team from scratch it would seem.
You would do well to do better research in Europe as well. I know that there are teams at the University level in the UK running the DW and I know there are semi pro teams running it and even a pro womens team.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 7:32:54 GMT -6
Second, would I recommend it? Only if you commit to it and get to some clinics or get some clinic videos and system information to really know what you are doing. It can and will be successful at that level. I believe both Don Markham and Hugh Wyatt won titles over seas using the dw. Someone correct me If I am wrong about that.
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Post by morris on Jan 28, 2008 8:24:50 GMT -6
I believe that is how they ended up knowing each other. They were both there at the same time coachign against eachother Wyatt (I believe) lost to Markham and was sold on the system.
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mikeger
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mikeger on Jan 28, 2008 8:29:00 GMT -6
Thank you for replying Coach, I have been researching a few days, but I still think that info on non-youth programs are very rare. I also read the news that Don Markham is going to NAIA, I also found some teams in europe that now and then used a form of single wing. Measured at the amount of teams that seem to commit to one of the Wings at youth level, above there is (almost) nothing to read about. Perhaps only if you know exactly where to seek. I was just wondering if that has any certain reason, besides that spectators often seem to complain that it is "not nice to watch" (which I personally cant understand).
I can not think of a sure reason why double wing would not work in any level as much as any other system would...
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 9:13:42 GMT -6
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mikeger
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mikeger on Jan 28, 2008 9:22:02 GMT -6
sorry, that link does not work. Which school is it?
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 9:22:31 GMT -6
sorry, that link does not work. Which school is it? you have to copy and paste the whole link to the browser. |
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 9:26:49 GMT -6
also check with mike Mahoney, I know he has a couple of big fat rings on his fingers from winning some sort of semi-pro "national championship" or something using a mixture of dw and spread.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 10:19:48 GMT -6
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mikeger
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mikeger on Jan 28, 2008 10:28:27 GMT -6
Thank you for the links, I will have a close look at them. However, this is again not above HS. I will try to get more info on Mike Mahoney.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 28, 2008 10:30:35 GMT -6
actually, there are a few university level and semi pro coaches there too. not sure their quality of play actually is above hs, but the age level is...know what i mean?
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mikeger
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mikeger on Jan 28, 2008 10:32:48 GMT -6
of course Coach, this is exactly what I am facing too ;D but they are as passionate as pros  |
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jan 29, 2008 10:00:40 GMT -6
Coaches, my question is: Why is there no Double Wing above HS anymore? Would you recommend me to give it a try with the team I described? Are there certain aspects that are not possible above youth? Mike: As someone who has coached in very similar circumstances (Monash University in Melbourne, Australia from 1988-89), I can tell you that a series-based offense like the Double Wing (or the Single Wing, or the Wing-T) is a fantastic way to introduce your players to the fundamentals of offensive football. There is no reason your players can't master all the skills needed to make the Double Wing go, and it offers plenty of advantages over other, more "conventional" attacks, in terms of a small set of plays and an obvious, built-in strategy for attacking defenses. Best of luck to you. There are some great Double Wing coaching resources available on this Delphi forum: forums.delphiforums.com/dwingers/start |
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Post by gmccown on Jan 29, 2008 15:43:52 GMT -6
As a guy who has worked at the JH, HS, and Semi Pro levels I can say that the majority of semi pro ball is not above the play level of large HS ball in the better parts of the states. There are some very good teams but I would be willing to bet that you take any top 5 HS team in 6A in Oklahoma or Texas (5A) and beat any semi pro team in a 4 state area. I don't think it will be even close. I promise you I know a HS DW team in KS 3A which would wipe the floor with any semi pro team in OK because the semi pro defenses simply couldn't handle the repeated punishment.
I've used it in semi pro and if you can get your players to comitt to it (that is a big if with the guys I've coached), and you do it right, it will work.
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Post by coachsky on Jan 29, 2008 16:15:43 GMT -6
If your not making a living doing it, is "pro" really the correct term?
"Semi-pro = semi-accurate" hmmm.
Football Club seems better, like Rugby.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 29, 2008 16:16:40 GMT -6
Around here it seems like semi pro teams are often desparate for coaches and the turnover of coaches and players makes it tough to really build upon much. attendence at practices and that sort of thing really dictates keeping things simple.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 29, 2008 16:24:57 GMT -6
If your not making a living doing it, is "pro" really the correct term? "Semi-pro = semi-accurate" hmmm. Football Club seems better, like Rugby. Im sure it's different in all areas of the country but here it "costs" money to play "semi pro" . They don't get paid, they pay to play so yes not sure how it is called semi-pro. They even have to buy their own gear etc. Quite a number of guys that never even started on their HS teams etc. As long as they are having fun , who cares. |
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Post by lochness on Jan 29, 2008 16:53:21 GMT -6
I coached a "semi pro" team last season (much to my dismay), and there were two very good teams in our league that both ran the double wing. They both pretty much ran the same stuff...2 TEs, foot-to-foot splits, sniffer FB...Power Toss, Counter, FB Trap, FB Wedge, Waggles. Very effective at that level, especially because you don't have a lot of time to prepare.
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Post by knighter on Jan 29, 2008 16:57:45 GMT -6
DW would work anywhere (okay waiting to get railroaded here). Save comments for someone who actually cares though...lol
I am almost 100% positive I (or I should say any good DW coach...not specifically me)could take ANY NFL defense and make a good DW offense out of them...good enough that it would work in GL situations in NFL games.
Again call me crazy, but I drank the kool aid, and it was tasty.
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Post by knighter on Jan 29, 2008 16:59:10 GMT -6
I also know it is not everybody's "thing". Not telling anyone to switch to it. I learned it, and bought in 100% and that is waht I know and believe in. It is what "works" for me.
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Post by phantom on Jan 29, 2008 17:54:42 GMT -6
I coached a "semi pro" team last season (much to my dismay), and there were two very good teams in our league that both ran the double wing. They both pretty much ran the same stuff...2 TEs, foot-to-foot splits, sniffer FB...Power Toss, Counter, FB Trap, FB Wedge, Waggles. Very effective at that level, especially because you don't have a lot of time to prepare. To me, semi-pro teams, with their limited practice time, and European adult teams, with the limited experience of the players, should be looked at as similar to youth football. As such I certainly think that the DW could be successful. Could it work at the college or NFL level? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter because that wasn't the question. |
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 29, 2008 18:01:21 GMT -6
different rules in college and pro football might make it more difficult to run ...ie can cut outside of the fbz.
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Post by gmccown on Jan 29, 2008 21:42:15 GMT -6
Yes...for power it would be more difficult...mabey...but for sweep, pass pro, and a few others....if your wb's can cut...and the fb and guards can cut on the edge...wow...
Semi pro is very much like youth ball...trade parents for baby mommas...and trade eager learning attitudes for I know everything I learned on madden which is everything...beyond that they are the same. Sometimes the semi pro guys are bigger babies.
Adult Amature is a better term than semi pro.
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mikeger
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mikeger on Jan 31, 2008 19:02:19 GMT -6
coaches, what do you think about the wedge in above youth level? Aggressive DL submarining or cutting will most probably stop it and is very likely to occur.
I guess "punishing by stampeding over them" may work with kids but not above youth... any experience with that? Of course, the counter thread may take away pressure from backfield, but I am worried about the knees of my linemen.
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Post by khalfie on Jan 31, 2008 19:11:15 GMT -6
coaches, what do you think about the wedge in above youth level? Aggressive DL submarining or cutting will most probably stop it and is very likely to occur. I guess "punishing by stampeding over them" may work with kids but not above youth... any experience with that? Of course, the counter thread may take away pressure from backfield, but I am worried about the knees of my linemen. It works... your opponent never knows when its coming... When they do know its coming... they can usually put the kabosh on it... I normally start every game with the wedge... and usually after the 3rd time in a row, is when the other team catches on... but by then its 2nd and short. |
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iso
Freshmen Member
Posts: 78
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Post by iso on Jan 31, 2008 19:27:43 GMT -6
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iso
Freshmen Member
Posts: 78
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Post by iso on Jan 31, 2008 19:33:07 GMT -6
coaches, what do you think about the wedge in above youth level? When frustrated by blitzes, run the wedge. When frustrated by multiple defensive alignments, audible and run the wedge at the bubble. It is not pretty, but positive yards are positive yards. |
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Post by coachsky on Jan 31, 2008 19:52:28 GMT -6
We love the wedge at the HS level. You just have to use it prudently.
The best way to use it is in a series so that you can punish a team for overplaying.
There are a couple of championship caliber programs in our area that use the wedge effectively and they are not Wingnuts.
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Post by coachcalande on Feb 1, 2008 4:32:05 GMT -6
coaches, what do you think about the wedge in above youth level? Aggressive DL submarining or cutting will most probably stop it and is very likely to occur. I guess "punishing by stampeding over them" may work with kids but not above youth... any experience with that? Of course, the counter thread may take away pressure from backfield, but I am worried about the knees of my linemen. if you have a dline playing to stop the wedge then you should be running trap. wedge is great against teams that like to slant and loop linemen. When defensive linemen are light on their hands run wedge, when they are heavy on their hands run trap. not rocket science I know but it works at every level. you can see larry harrisons team run some very nice wedge plays on youtube if you look under double wing. wedge works best with misdirection behind it too, for example if you have a motion wing fake a reverse to another wing while the qb boots out or fakes off tackle toss action...just a straight wedge will get you a few yards but the xx action can break big. AT the frosh level I know teams we played HATED our wedge xx. I can remember running it the second year in the league and I heard a collective groan from the other teams defense "not that play again".... |
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