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Post by coachmathis on Sept 21, 2007 11:16:54 GMT -6
Do you steal signs and how do you feel about stealing signs? I don't steal signs. IMO no matter how many people do it, it's cheating
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Post by superpower on Sept 21, 2007 11:25:21 GMT -6
I am not smart enough to figure out what the opponent is doing. We have enough trouble getting our kids to line up and do our job.
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Post by olinecoach61 on Sept 21, 2007 11:27:27 GMT -6
I've never stolen signs as a football player or coach, and I don't think I ever will. That being said, I did it all teh time as a baseball player and was pretty good at it. I think baseball lends itself to it while football is so fast paced it's much harder to do unless like the Pat's your taping and breaking it down.
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Post by airman on Sept 21, 2007 11:27:51 GMT -6
if you have time to sit there and figure out the signs. I hope your team is really good.
WHile many will say stealing of signs is fair game I do not see it that way.
like the Patriots, no message was really sent to the other nfl teams who do the same thing. The NFl should have fired the head coach of the patriot to set a example. poor pac man gets a lifetime suspension and the patriots get a slap on the wrist. thought they were going to cleanup the nfl.
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danimal23
Freshmen Member
Polk High, 4 tds in 1 game
Posts: 44
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Post by danimal23 on Sept 21, 2007 11:30:06 GMT -6
I think that if your someone picks up on your signs it's your own fault. a breakdown in tradecraft, as the CIA would say. I think there's some gray area though, but the Pats went over the line with a video camera.
I wouldn't waste my time doing it because i think the reward wouldn't warrant the time studying the signs. Much better stuff to look at on film than the DC flailing on the sideline.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 21, 2007 17:16:41 GMT -6
I have no problem with it as long as it is within the rules (Using videotape to do so in the NFL was against the rules)
If you have the resources to devote to this, go for it.
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Post by brophy on Sept 21, 2007 18:12:07 GMT -6
When scouting, I have video taped the opposing coach signalling in a call prior to a play
Now, this really didn't help a whole lot because the defenses that I was scouting never really seemed to do anything different, plus....it was a LOT of work to matchup the signals.
(before the play film the D&D markers....film the DC signalling....pan out to view the personnel on the field and the the coverage shell.....alignment vs the formation....)
As Bill Gates has said, "Information is the uncertainty of doubt" and that is the whole point of scouting & using tendencies.
However, seeing signs as they go in (from the box) are easy, especially if they are simple to decipher (three fingers in the air = Cover 3....two fingers in the air = Cover 2), right arm raised flexing (strong slant), left arm raised (weak slant), hand "shooting" ( LB blitz )....etc
In a game, one time, we received the opposing radio signals for one series. And you can bet, we used it against them (though I don't think it helped us because nothing THAT team did would've worked against us anyway). I just wish that would happen against a tough team we play instead of the dirt bags.
I'm not too proud to admit I'll use ANYTHING I can to beat you. If you aren't bright enough to disguise what you're doing, that's your problem.
This is like a team, not bright enough to use wrist coaches to get plays in expecting you to ignore them when they are on the sideline yelling to their QB, "34 ZONE Z-REVERSE!! 34 ZONE Z-REVERSE!!"....
have you ever been up in the box and during a timeout watched the opposing coach interact with his players for a tipoff of the next play (coach taking aside the stud WR on 3rd & 7 inside the red zone)....?? Same thing
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Post by phantom on Sept 21, 2007 20:32:20 GMT -6
I don't understand why some people feel that it's unethical. If the coach yelled the play in you'd listen, wouldn't you? Why is it different if he's publicly using hand signals?
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Post by brophy on Sept 21, 2007 20:51:53 GMT -6
shoot, we've gone far enough (?) to steal audible/hots from spread teams.
......and by stealing I mean by watching their previous games and studying their playbook
(if you know the system, can you pretend you don't?)
That everytime a QB mimics a "zipper" on his chest, it means "slant" by #1...
That everytime a WR taps his head, he is running the fade.....
That everytime a OL yells a state's name, they are sliding right.....
etc
It is about equiping your players to make plays. Why fly blindly out there?
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Post by phantom on Sept 21, 2007 20:58:49 GMT -6
shoot, we've gone far enough (?) to steal audible/hots from spread teams.......and by stealing I mean by watching their previous games and studying their playbook (if you know the system, can you pretend you don't?)
That everytime a QB mimics a "zipper" on his chest, it means "slant" by #1...
That everytime a WR taps his head, he is running the fade.....
That everytime a OL yells a state's name, they are sliding right.....
etc
It is about equiping your players to make plays. Why fly blindly out there? Exactly. If the LG leans back when he's pulling or the QB licks his fingers when he's going to pass are we supposed to tell them? How about tendencies in general? If we know that they always run to the TE side on 3rd and short should we use that info? |
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Post by brophy on Sept 21, 2007 21:18:03 GMT -6
y'know, the more I live, the more I think more and more people have been duped into thinking this game is some sort of Super Hyper-Text Rocket Science Mumbo Jumbo.
This sport was invented by Phys-Ed Majors and Drunks, folks.
It ain't that complicated.
"Stealing" signs? Please......don't be predictable.....in your play-calling, in your tendencies, in your communication. It's simple, really
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Post by singlewing14 on Sept 22, 2007 18:12:44 GMT -6
Brophy, I agree with everything you have said except one. Stealing signs is a talent, and if a coach wants to signal in plays, he better be smarter than me, because if he is simple in his signs, I will figure it out, and use it against him (thats called coaching, me verses him, my talent verses his) . Now, if for some reason I can hear his headsets........I will notify the ref, have him tell the other coach, and the headsets come off. It is not ethical to use a fluke of technology. If you don't see it that way, I hope someone like you gets your headset communications and uses it to kick your butt (that's called cheating, not coaching).
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Post by brophy on Sept 22, 2007 18:19:01 GMT -6
the headsets come off. It is not ethical to use a fluke of technology. If you don't see it that way, I hope someone like you gets your headset communications and uses it to kick your butt (that's called cheating, not coaching). I hear what you're saying and it makes sense. It is real nice how everyone can take the hollier-than-thou approach to all this at the office. But you're telling us that if your Portacraps start crackling during a drive and you can't tell WHO is on the phones ....and you figure out it MUST be the other team, that you're going to call a time-out, notify refs, and stop the entire game because you think there might be a glitch in your Porta-Receiver? But again, our calls are pretty much all gibberish - most folks wouldn't know what we are calling based on the terminology (no football phrases, no route trees, etc) |
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Post by singlewing14 on Sept 22, 2007 18:23:59 GMT -6
Well, everything has patterns. I would think I could find one and at least know run verses pass.
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Post by knight9299 on Sept 22, 2007 18:24:02 GMT -6
y'know, the more I live, the more I think more and more people have been duped into thinking this game is some sort of Super Hyper-Text Rocket Science Mumbo Jumbo.
This sport was invented by Phys-Ed Majors and Drunks, folks.
It ain't that complicated.
"Stealing" signs? Please......don't be predictable.....in your play-calling, in your tendencies, in your communication. It's simple, really We went no huddle this year. People have been trying to steal our signs all year long. Not that they need the help. Last night I picked up the opponents defensive signals, they only used three. It's all they needed. Heck if you can't beat a defense and you know their coverage- you need help. Did I say I need help? Cuz, I do! |
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Post by singlewing14 on Sept 22, 2007 18:54:41 GMT -6
Yes Brophy. I have done it twice in my coaching career. Hearing the other teams head phones is wrong. I didn't waste a time out when it happened, I told the ref and he called the time out. I have also been on the losing team when the opponent could hear our calls and used them to beat us (they even bragged about it, that's how we found out). So office or not, a man integrity is best judged, not by how he acts in the view of others, but how he acts when he is alone.
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Post by deaux68 on Sept 23, 2007 10:54:54 GMT -6
Videoing the stuff is a different situation.
That being said, when we are on defense facing a no huddle/check with me team I've got the binoculars out on the signal guy. I'm not smart enough to make it work yet though. I played baseball and coach baseball now. We did and still do encourage stealing signs, pitchers tipping off pitches. Heck our kids get pissed if they are batting and a kid on second base isn't helping them out.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 23, 2007 11:56:57 GMT -6
got to say that stealing live would be ok...but at the H.S. level, where resources are never equal---taping and looking later would be unethical.
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Post by fbdoc on Sept 23, 2007 12:14:29 GMT -6
This is why I love this board - for discussions like this. I'm not going to devote a coach and camera to try and find out what our opponents signals are, but if I see and hear something and I'm able to put 2 and 2 together, then YES, absolutely I will use that information! I also find it interesting that those who are talking about character, ethics, and the like on this topic appear to be on the other side of this issue when the question involves "running up the score." Let me see, its OK to beat someone by using (Stealing) their signs - good coaching, but its not OK to beat them by a lot - lack of character and class.  |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 23, 2007 12:23:08 GMT -6
great point doc--I think the big debate is over the method of "stealing". It seems the consensus is that "real time" stealing would be ok, but video study might be a bit low.
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Post by fbdoc on Sept 23, 2007 12:34:32 GMT -6
I can hear it now, "Our staff has really put in a lot of time trying to improve our RTS (real time stealing) skills for the upcoming season. LOL. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 23, 2007 12:42:38 GMT -6
HEY..i know that when I was coaching, (or if I get back into it), I would LOVE to coach against at team where the other coaches kept staring at me rather than at what their team was doing
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