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Post by airraider on Sept 2, 2007 10:55:47 GMT -6
We got whipped pretty bad this week. Our fastest kid is about a 4.9 on a good day.
We played a school who had some great athletes. Had guys playing D-line who could out run our fastest guys.
They were up 35-0 at the half and continued to throw the ball in the second.
With 1:43 left to go in the game they threw a 44 yard TD with ALL of their starters in to make it 50-0.
I dont mind losing, and I do not even mind them trying to score with their back ups..
but no need to play air ball when you are up that big with so little time with your starters.
Almost lost it at midfield.. shook the coaches hand and said this to him..
"I dont know who is gonna do it, but I hope someone beats you 180-0 this year.. That was purely classless and you will never rise above that."
Then he went on a wild rant, get off my field.. we could have beat you by 180 if we wanted to.. bla bla bla..
I took all I had not to really say some things I would have regretted.
Then their OC came up to me and said coach.. we asked the reffs if yall wanted to run the clock out and they said no, so we threw the ball.
He mistook running the clock out as running the ball..
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Post by wildcat on Sept 2, 2007 11:01:12 GMT -6
I wouldn't have said anything to the guy other than, "Good game, Coach...Have a great season." I would have never have given the guy the satisfaction of knowing that he "got to me".
Now, if I was up 44-0 on someone, I wouldn't be throwing the ball, but I'm not going to complain if someone does it to me.
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Post by airraider on Sept 2, 2007 11:06:19 GMT -6
I understand that.. and In certain situations I would probably be the same way.. but being up 44-0 and then throwing the ball trying to score again?? Thats classless in my book.
If they were a "passing" team and that was really all they did.. then sure.. or if the only had 20 kids.. or if we would have left our starters in.. but we had our back up QB in.. several other 2's were in as well..
I guess it just ticked me off so bad being that he never pulled his starters and were still throwing the ball with less than 2 minutes to go while up 44-0. Take any of those things out and I probably wouldnt have been so mad.
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Post by saintrad on Sept 2, 2007 11:16:39 GMT -6
airraider I can cell your pain, but here are two rules that I learned really early in coaching:
1. ALWAYS be the class act even when the opponent isn't one;
2. It's YOUR job to coach YOUR team and not the other coaches job.
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Post by airraider on Sept 2, 2007 11:34:10 GMT -6
airraider I can cell your pain, but here are two rules that I learned really early in coaching: 1. ALWAYS be the class act even when the opponent isn't one; 2. It's YOUR job to coach YOUR team and not the other coaches job. I felt like I was a class act.. For me not to cuss him and threaten to whip his ass was class act in my book.. And sure, coach my kids.. if it was simply a lack of coaching then I could shoulder that and pick up all the blame.. but we were simply out manned.. he knew that.. we knew that.. everyone knew that.. Their 6'2 receivers out jumping our 5'8 corners in the endzone to make it 50-0 after their 6'2 QB scrambles around 8 seconds while our big slow D-linemen chase him across the field and back is just senseless in my humble opinion.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 2, 2007 11:36:05 GMT -6
Nothin you can about it after the fact; I'd shake hands, congratulate them and the walk away. No point in wasting energy over it; there's nothin you can do but get back to practice the next week.
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Post by brophy on Sept 2, 2007 12:40:28 GMT -6
I was at that game.
Now, I can't tell somebody how to feel. I really felt that airraider did everything he could from a playcall perspective to make it work. I mean, what can you do when you are just physically outclassed?
One thing, though, his kids never gave up, kept fighting, and kept hustiling.....they were just Davids against Goliaths.
But you can only control what you can control. If you can't stop the blast (many teams can't), is it 'inhumane' to just shove it up your opponent sideways by continuing to run it at them?
The fact that the starters were still in only hurts the winning team, they really didn't need to be in after the 3rd qtr.....BUT it is MY job to play YOU. YOU do what you want, we'll do what WE want. I don't care if you're up by 100 and if you come out in the swinging gate....it is MY JOB to stop you regardless.
The only time I would get upset with another coach would be if they purposely tried to injure a player....that's it. (but, hey, to each his own).
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 2, 2007 12:55:45 GMT -6
I have to second what brophy is saying here. I have never understood why "thowing" the ball is considered taboo in a blowout. Most often in H.S. sports, a blow out is caused by the physical mismatch--and most occur with running teams being superior in size and speed. So, like brophy said, is simply running the ball more merciful than throwing? Yes, the clock runs, BUT if that is the issue..if trying to get out of the game and get home sooner because it is a mismatch is the desired outcome---why schedulle the game?
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Post by Coach Huey on Sept 2, 2007 14:19:12 GMT -6
1) play to win the game.
when that is secured...
2) play the backups in an effort to give them live reps running the offense (as you would with the first team, per se) in the event they have to step in should a starter get hurt down the road.
once you feel backups have sufficient reps ...
3) play the "ROY's" (i.e. Rest Of You) by running the most basic plays you have - and probably the few they can execute effectively anyway.
At no time are you trying to "run it up" but at the same time if scoring does occur using this "method" then that is merely a by-product of preparing the 2nd-teamers in case you need it or by allowing the 3rd-teamers to enjoy live game action that they rarely get.
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Post by airraider on Sept 2, 2007 15:09:31 GMT -6
I have to second what brophy is saying here. I have never understood why "thowing" the ball is considered taboo in a blowout. Most often in H.S. sports, a blow out is caused by the physical mismatch--and most occur with running teams being superior in size and speed. So, like brophy said, is simply running the ball more merciful than throwing? Yes, the clock runs, BUT if that is the issue..if trying to get out of the game and get home sooner because it is a mismatch is the desired outcome---why schedulle the game? I guess its just the situation where when you as a coach know you are beat and there is nothing else you can do in that game to try to make it a game.. you just want to get your kids out of the game.. we were running the ball and trying to run as much clock as we could.. then they get the ball and throw every play. They had 5 run plays in the second half.. The outcome was decided in the 2nd quarter, why not get their 2's some work and not risk their starters getting injured?? Why continue to embarrass my kids and prolong the game?? Just because they can is all I can come up with.. and to me.. thats just classless.. I wasnt agressive towards the guy at all.. I just simply let him know in a very calm and converse manner that I felt that what he did was classless and that I hoped it came back around on him.
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Post by brophy on Sept 2, 2007 16:06:25 GMT -6
one thought would be that they were giving you an excellent chance to at least score once.
I mean, if they don't complete those passes, doesn't that give your offense more time to figure something out to score? The only thing is....you have to stop the completions. Completions or Iso, does it matter what is run, so long as you can't stop it? They really provided your team with enough reps to get better, don't you think?
After 35-0, it really becomes a high-tempo scrimmage, anyway.....get all the reps for your kids as you can. It would be better quality reps for your kids than you could get them in practice.
It is all on how you frame your perspective.
Reminds me of my ex-wife. She would look for ANY reason to get {censored} off. "You cleaned the house and did the lawn? What are you trying to do MAKE ME FEEL BAD?!?"
LMAO.......yeah.......Riiiiiight.
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Post by CoachDaniel on Sept 2, 2007 16:57:51 GMT -6
I can understand the reaction completely, and I have gotten real angry in the past about it. When I was on the JV staff I tried to convince the head coach to punt it back to them on 1st down, if they want to keep scoring so bad. BUT, when I get away from it, and think about it... the kids don't know any different. I've never heard kids complain about another team "running it up." I would hope that most of the people on this board are intelligent and raesonable and would follow Coach Huey's post, but we know that there are plenty of coaches who don't fall anywhere near the jurisdiction of reasonable and think throwing the ball deep with the 1st team at the end of the game is a great idea. I really think the best thing to do is to shake hands, say good game, and file it away for the day when you get up big on him and do the right thing.
But, when it actually happens I don't know if I could help but throw some off handed comment at the coach on the way out. Possibly mumble some slang for male parts under my breath too.
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Post by silkyice on Sept 2, 2007 18:04:02 GMT -6
I want your opinion on this.
One year, we were beating a team pretty badly, something like 55-7. I had the 3rd string in and it was the beginning of the fourth quarter. We were a throwing spread team in 2x2 shotgun. They had in mostly starters and were blitzing 8 and killing my 3rd team RB and QB because I was trying to just run the game out. By the way, they were still throwing on every down which prolonged the game.
Anyway, I didn't think it was fair to just let my 3rd team get killed (those guys deserve success too), so I threw a couple of screens and torched them. Next two possesions we just ran, but the other team was pissed.
Was I right to do that?
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Post by Coach Huey on Sept 2, 2007 18:20:17 GMT -6
I want your opinion on this. One year, we were beating a team pretty badly, something like 55-7. I had the 3rd string in and it was the beginning of the fourth quarter. We were a throwing spread team in 2x2 shotgun. They had in mostly starters and were blitzing 8 and killing my 3rd team RB and QB because I was trying to just run the game out. By the way, they were still throwing on every down which prolonged the game. Anyway, I didn't think it was fair to just let my 3rd team get killed (those guys deserve success too), so I threw a couple of screens and torched them. Next two possesions we just ran, but the other team was {censored}. Was I right to do that? when the score is like that, then it should fall on the losing team to change their mindset and approach as well. i mean, that is also a time to get the backups some playing time for them. while, many may view this as conceding and giving up, it is not - in my opinion. for one, what have i done (as the team that is behind) to warrant you to "call of the dogs"? secondly, finding playing time for the backups is hard to do during the course of the season. is losing 55-14 or 55-21 any better than losing 55-7? what if your starter gets hurt when you are down 49 points in the 4th ... now, you are without him the following weeks when you still have chance for victory. my philosophy is to play to win. once that has been decided -- either way, i.e. we're up big late or we're down late and we haven't been moving the ball and trail by such an obscene amount in the 4th that we won't get enough possesions to comeback anyway -- then play the backups to get experience. run your normal offense/defense with those backups. if the game permits -- i.e. you've played the backups sufficiently to get live action -- then put in the 3rd team and those players that rarely will play. call plays/defenses that they are comfortable with executing. for me, we will do this regardless if we are the one up big or the ones trailing big. however, if trailing, we will make the changes later in the game as we will still look to win the game. but, we all are smart enough to recognize when that point of no return has been reached and we then move on to plan #2 of using the backups
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Post by coachmoore42 on Sept 2, 2007 18:30:31 GMT -6
I wasnt agressive towards the guy at all.. I just simply let him know in a very calm and converse manner that I felt that what he did was classless and that I hoped it came back around on him. You and I have disagreed on other things, but we are on the same page on this one. I did the same thing you did last week when faced with a coach running it up on us (they ran hurry up offense up two TD's with a minute to go). I told him he was classless and held back from saying (or doing) what I really wanted to. Don't stoop to his level by running it up on his kids next time. Do something creative like handing him a copy of your kneel-down play on a laminated sheet after you win. No matter what you do...kick his tail in the next time you play!
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Post by airraider on Sept 2, 2007 18:35:02 GMT -6
I have a few different general rules of what to do in lopsided games.
Last year we went 13-1 and that 1 was a very lopsided loss to a team who did not try to humiliate us, but when you completely screw yourself and give them the ball inside your 20 time after time.. the 60-6 just kind of happens.
But in the other 13 games we won big more than a few. Our HC was of the thought that not only should you not humiliate the guys, but let them score. On a few occasions he put out the 3rd team while they still had in their starters just so they could march down and score one.
We have taken many a knee late in the 2nd half and had a few games where the starters were done at the half.
My personal view is.. if we are up big and the other team is still trying to win.. ie.. throwing deep, kicking onsides, keeping in their starters.. then we sub lightly..
they wholesale it.. we wholesale it..
Same if we are losing big time.. once they put in their backups.. we might try to march down with our starters once just to get a score.. but if they are going to put in the back ups.. so are we.. up big or down big..
We dressed our entire freshmen team for homecoming last year.. we played a pretty out manned team.. we won 49-14. It was 42-0 at the half. Our 2's scored on the very first possesion of the second half.. then we went ALL freshmen.. they scored twice on them.. and that was the game..
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Shotgun1
Sophomore Member
It is better to die trying than to quit...
Posts: 214
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Post by Shotgun1 on Sept 2, 2007 19:35:39 GMT -6
Was up 28-0 in the third quarter, stopped their 1st drive with our 1st D then wholesale subbed. They kept their starters in, threw deep, onside kicked, tried to block punts, and scored 16 points before 2 minutes left in the 3rd. I had my 1st kickoff team recover the onside attempt then called a timeout. I called over to the other coach and asked him if he was going to sub or did I have to put my 1s back out, he told me he was trying to win the game. I put my 1s back in and 16 more points before we subbed some players and ended up scoring 50 on him without throwing the ball. We subbed where we could but kept enough good players in to stop them and be successful until 4 minutes left and we subbed everyone. He never subbed his ones out and ended up scoring again against our 3s and even tried another onside kick. I guess I learned to never wholesale sub if the other guy does not start subbing some players. I never want to embarass anyone but I cannot let your 1s outmuscle my 2s and 3s and catchup. Maybe I was wrong in thinking he would start subbing early because we could have scored 70? Maybe I should have kept the 1s in to the end of the 3rd in the first place?
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Post by wildcat on Sept 2, 2007 22:12:36 GMT -6
Was up 28-0 in the third quarter, stopped their 1st drive with our 1st D then wholesale subbed. They kept their starters in, threw deep, onside kicked, tried to block punts, and scored 16 points before 2 minutes left in the 3rd. I had my 1st kickoff team recover the onside attempt then called a timeout. I called over to the other coach and asked him if he was going to sub or did I have to put my 1s back out, he told me he was trying to win the game. I put my 1s back in and 16 more points before we subbed some players and ended up scoring 50 on him without throwing the ball. We subbed where we could but kept enough good players in to stop them and be successful until 4 minutes left and we subbed everyone. He never subbed his ones out and ended up scoring again against our 3s and even tried another onside kick. I guess I learned to never wholesale sub if the other guy does not start subbing some players. I never want to embarass anyone but I cannot let your 1s outmuscle my 2s and 3s and catchup. Maybe I was wrong in thinking he would start subbing early because we could have scored 70? Maybe I should have kept the 1s in to the end of the 3rd in the first place? Some people just don't get it when you are trying to do them a favor. Guys like that DESERVE to get 50 points hung on them...
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Post by schultbear74 on Sept 2, 2007 22:33:36 GMT -6
The best advice that I have heard is that you always leave your starters in until the end of the third quarter if you can. You might choose to bench your stud QB or RB, but your first O- line needs the work. Put you back-up QB in, run your 2's at RB and WR if you are ahead by that much. Always make sure that your 1's get properly "blooded" every week. If it gets down to being kind to an opponent, make adjustments don't be insulting.
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Post by shamespiral on Sept 3, 2007 0:27:52 GMT -6
It all depends. We were up big this last week, the opposition started running the ball to run it out. Well so did we. But if they had kept throwing the ball, we would have kept throwing it to.
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Post by Yash on Sept 3, 2007 6:54:50 GMT -6
Last year in my JV game I was getting beat 40-6 or something to that nature late in the 4th quarter. I had my subs in and the other team was still throwing and running HB passes. Each time the pass was complete the ref would toss a flag and call it back on holding. He knew my subs were in and he wasn't a fan of a team getting the score run up on. I thanked him after the game. I can take a 50 point beating, but my young guys who are just getting reps don't need to because some coach wants to run his trick plays up by 40.
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moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Sept 3, 2007 11:24:54 GMT -6
I don't typically voice my opinion on topics like this, but being a coach who has been on both sides of this maybe I can shed some light. The one thing that a coach hates to see when he is up bay thirty points and has decided just to run the ball and kill clock is the opponent playing as though they have a chance to get back in the game. What would you do if a team basically told you they were only going to run the ball and never even give you any playaction? I know what every coach in America does; they crowd the line of scrimmage and tee off. I've seen, in games where we were up a bunch, our second and third team tailbacks get massacred. So I threw the ball deep because that is about the easiest way to make sure noone gets hurt. And sometimes we catch them and score touchdowns and I look like a jerk, but I don't care. My point is just this: If you are down by thirty and expect me to play my slugs, call off the dogs. Or better yet, just walk across the field at the start of the fourth quarter and concede the game and we can all get home early and start breaking down tape. Sorry, I've rambled on so long. This is just an issue I consider important.
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Post by phantom on Sept 3, 2007 11:32:09 GMT -6
Was up 28-0 in the third quarter, stopped their 1st drive with our 1st D then wholesale subbed. They kept their starters in, threw deep, onside kicked, tried to block punts, and scored 16 points before 2 minutes left in the 3rd. I had my 1st kickoff team recover the onside attempt then called a timeout. I called over to the other coach and asked him if he was going to sub or did I have to put my 1s back out, he told me he was trying to win the game. I put my 1s back in and 16 more points before we subbed some players and ended up scoring 50 on him without throwing the ball. We subbed where we could but kept enough good players in to stop them and be successful until 4 minutes left and we subbed everyone. He never subbed his ones out and ended up scoring again against our 3s and even tried another onside kick. I guess I learned to never wholesale sub if the other guy does not start subbing some players. I never want to embarass anyone but I cannot let your 1s outmuscle my 2s and 3s and catchup. Maybe I was wrong in thinking he would start subbing early because we could have scored 70? Maybe I should have kept the 1s in to the end of the 3rd in the first place? IMO, 28-0 early in the third quarter is too early to start wholesale subbing if we're talking HS varsity football. The guy was right to try to win the game at that point.
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Post by phantom on Sept 3, 2007 11:42:18 GMT -6
I don't typically voice my opinion on topics like this, but being a coach who has been on both sides of this maybe I can shed some light. The one thing that a coach hates to see when he is up bay thirty points and has decided just to run the ball and kill clock is the opponent playing as though they have a chance to get back in the game. What would you do if a team basically told you they were only going to run the ball and never even give you any playaction? I know what every coach in America does; they crowd the line of scrimmage and tee off. I've seen, in games where we were up a bunch, our second and third team tailbacks get massacred. So I threw the ball deep because that is about the easiest way to make sure noone gets hurt. And sometimes we catch them and score touchdowns and I look like a jerk, but I don't care. My point is just this: If you are down by thirty and expect me to play my slugs, call off the dogs. Or better yet, just walk across the field at the start of the fourth quarter and concede the game and we can all get home early and start breaking down tape. Sorry, I've rambled on so long. This is just an issue I consider important. This may not be popular but I agree with this. If it's seconds on seconds that's one thing. If we have our seconds in and you keep the firsts, and you have 35 in the box, don't expect any breaks. I'm sensitive to this because it happened to us the other night. Up 46-7 late in the third quarter we emptied the bench. The other guys left their firsts in and scored two TDs. I couldn't care less about the TDs. What bothered me was that their firsts are a lot better than our seconds and thirds and somebody could get hurt.
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Shotgun1
Sophomore Member
It is better to die trying than to quit...
Posts: 214
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Post by Shotgun1 on Sept 3, 2007 13:30:16 GMT -6
Lots of good opinions! I will never wholesale sub until the 4th quarter should we be ahead by a good margin. If they are loading the box and teeing off is there anything wrong with a boot pass to keep them honest? After reeding the above I have changed my opinion and think it is OK if they are loading the LOS.
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Post by wildcat on Sept 3, 2007 14:03:20 GMT -6
Had a guy pull that crap last year.
We were up big...something like 42-14 in the 4th and we had ours sophs in and were just running the ball to end the game. Other coach leaves his varsity starters in and starts crowding the LOS and is blitzing all over the place. Just whaling away on our youngsters.
What makes it even worse is that after every negative-yardage play, the other team's kids are hooting and hollering like it is the Super Bowl...just sickening.
So, next time we get the ball, we ran a play action play. Other team flew up on the run fake, QB boots out, and hits our TE for an easy-as-stealing TD.
Other coach starts waving his arms around and is just every shade of pissed-off imaginable. After we kick off, the game ends after they get a couple of first downs.
Coach comes tearing across the field yelling about us being "bush league" for "running the score up". So I ask him, "Coach, I wasn't going to sit there and let your starters just tee off on our sophs. i am not going to get any of my guys hurt just so you can feel good about beating on frosh-soph kids."
Guys storms off saying something about, "Fine, coach...we will see you guys next year." and crap like that.
Guy was a complete A-hole and deserved to have 60 points dumped on him.
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barnone
Sophomore Member
Posts: 132
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Post by barnone on Sept 4, 2007 8:59:34 GMT -6
What comes around goes around. When you act like that you will eventually get yours. Let them run it up and you just continue to get better and work your kids. Sometime in life that will come back to haunt him. It may be getting beat really bad by someone, it may get a star player hurt, or it may be him not getting a job cause he gets a reputation for being classless. All you can do though is continue to teach and coach your players the right way.
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Post by thunder17 on Sept 4, 2007 10:31:28 GMT -6
We had the same thing happen this past weekend. We were down 30 in the 4th quarter, taking a pretty good pounding (no seniors, could be a long year) and they pulled their big boys and put in the jv/soph group. They lined up and ran the ball and we played base D the rest of the way out. I would not have had a problem with them throwing the ball, I would expect them to get reps for their younger kids as well. But I also was not going to blitz the house every play either. It's just common courtesy. Game was over, he commented on the fact that our kids played hard until the end, we told him thanks, good game, good luck. We're just praying the season doesn't end we the same conversation after every game.
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Post by brophy on Sept 4, 2007 11:44:25 GMT -6
just my final thought on this If you put your kids in a game and expect some 'agreed-upon' mercy to save face, you grew up on a sport different from the one I know.
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Post by airman on Sept 4, 2007 17:50:19 GMT -6
i have run into this from time to time. I do not believe in running the ball, unless you make it so easy to run the ball. I am not going to stop throwing the ball if I am up 80-0. I will however be using backups. I am not going to tell my backups to not do what we do. it is unfair to tell those who have practiced all week to not run the offense they have practiced.
I have run into these thin skinned coaches and if I am up by a large lead I will often punt the ball right back to them. let them run the clock out.
the punt is a great offensive weapon. I have often punted on really rainy nights thus making the other team handle the ball. my college football coach would do this all the time. we were a wishbone/option team. on really bad raining days, we would punt the ball back to the other team. it was a way to gain field position with out having to handle the ball.
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