D-wing or not D-wing, that is the question!!!??!?

#1 is not how I would think of it

I would put in what the kids can handle. Lack of talent doesn't necessarily determine that you cant run some different things. Lack of talent to me makes me think of ways to help undertalented kids compete.

There are 3 basic types of offense that allow you to compete with lesser talent in my mind
1. option
2. air raid throw it every down
3. wing-t, DW type things that have a lot of misdirection in them to confuse people

pick the one that fits what you have best and more importantly that YOU know, and go for it


Lots of talent can make it so you can run very simple stuff and be able to get away with it though.

I had a similar situation to yours when i took my job ({censored}, i still have the same problems) small linemen, no real talent, not much in terms of football smarts. I needed an offense that would be simple enough for our guys to grasp, while confusing the defense. I chose to put in the Urban Meyer Shotgun Option offense. Now when most hear that they'll tell me i'm insane, well here are my reasons for doing it

-it becomes a simple #'s game, we take what they give us. In the dwing if you're trying to run trap, you're trying to run trap regardless of whats going on with the defense

-I'm not asking my 145lb guard to pull and trap an asskicker and get movement on him. instead pretty much my linemen are just "get in the way" guys. hate to say it but its the truth.

-my four best blockers are my receivers. i can get the ball outside on swings, toss, options, jet sweep, screens, etc and pretty much my lineman don't have to block anyone and we can have a successful play

-By eliminating people from the box i feel it helps our odds. In d-wing if you run a play inside there will be 8 or 9 of your guys there plus 9 or 10 of theres. If i'm asking 8 guys to make crucial blocks I really believe that atleast one of my guys would miss. In the spread i'm asking my 5 to block their 6 with my QB reading #6. I like my chances 5 on 5 better than 8 on 8. hope that makes sense

-we have a small # plays like you mentioned, and very few formations, but everyplay we have is an answer to something to defense is doing. If they're doing A, we can do B.

-I had a QB this year who never played QB in his life, pretty much all i taught him was zone read, and option. he threw a decent ball when needed, but we were not much of a passing team. He did a great job for us.

This is just the way I chose to approach the problem. Now I feel i must mention that I coach in NY where everyone is in DWing. So me putting it in with my inferior talent was pointless b/c these people are used to seeing it with better talent, they would kill my guys. On the other hand they never see a 4 wide shotgun team. You'd be amazed with some of the Defenses these guys came up with to play me. One game we ran for 400 yards!!

The kid I'm going to put there might be our best athlete, but that's a relative term.
I haven't ruled out the option, I'm just not sure he can execute it.

Thinking out loud here I guess. lol
He's not very disciplined. I'm a little worried about putting too much on him.

Moose I've considered what you do as well.

Tog where I probably should put him is at WR, that's what he's best at, but I can't figure out who could get thim the ball out there.

Not a bad idea Moose. Our one asset is a very good tailback a young kid with good speed and decent power so I'm kind of looking to feature him.

man it sounds like you have a bunch of players!!! stop complaining on here!! haha, jk. But seriously I think you could do some good things. Heres how i broke it down if it is any help to you. Best player was TB. QB was a good tough athlete type. If we were a wingT team he 'd have been our FB. My slot receivers were little tough kids who would be wingT wingback types. My WR were basically my most athletic "tackles" I use that term loosely b/c we had two 160lb tackles and our WR we both bigger than that and stronger than them. Our best blocks were always on the perimeter though.

i'll weigh in in a minute....lol

Kids win the games. So find a system where you can consistantly get the ball to your best threats or "weapons of mass production". I know this is generic but IMO the option guys (like me) will tout the option. Spread guys will tout spread, and wingers will tout the wing. I think any of those will work.

I am with moose 18, and most importantly his 4th point. If your guys aren't really physical, and you don't do a good job teaching blocking (or more to the point, they don't do a good job execute what you are teaching) then the foot to foot dbl wing really just puts a LOT of people in front of the guy you said you want to feature.

That said, if you try some type of spread gun, 4wr running attack, and you can't expose a defense who plays an 8 man front (OR a 6 man front, bedpending on how you look at it) then they will always have that unblocked player involved.

coachnorm...

just to chime in with moose18 about the spread option scheme... we run something similar in that it is a run n shoot with some option and shotgun run game mixed in. The one thing that I like most is the simplified passing game rules... corners 6 yds or deeper = hitch; pressing corners = fade; slot defender with inside leverage = bubble; 5 in the box = run
just my two cents...

dsqa that sounds very interesting. I was planning on using dw principles out of the i-wing, flex-t, power-i, and a variety of different formations. My plan was to focus on executing a small number of plays out of a variety of formations using the dw super power blocking schemes and principles.

That being said I'm keeping an open mind and letting everyone put in their two cents worth and thinking about everything I hear.

Coach, I will take a different appoach...if you decide to you want to commit to the dw let me know and I will help you every step of the way. It is what it is, lots of double teams which is great for undersized kids, its all bunched up, great for slow kids, its hard to find the football and the motion sets up series football. as far as lil guys trapping big guys, yup, when the big guys are so worried about being whupped by lil guys on double teams they become easier to trap...anyhow, most times we dont even have to trap them, our guard can go to the corner since the dt is belly flopping...anyhow, back to playcalling, its an art... this puts the playcalling/game planning adjustments on the coach, not the qb or rec....the kids can execute without a lot of thinking. you have to be a stickler for details and be willing to rep the same plays over and over and over against fronts and stunts and techniques....the playbook is kept small so you can run the same system with 8 year olds up to your varsity ....it develops attitude and toughness and its hard (impossible?) for the other guys to duplicate and prepare for. you wont have to worry about losing say an option or spread qb (then what?) if you lose your dw qb, just move a guard back there lol...seriously though, theres a reason why so many small school coaches look into it. as far as running into "8-9" man fronts, thats alot differnet when you are a 10 gap formation as the dw is as compared to being a 6 gap front as say the spread is, or the 7 gap front of a pro I ...you still have more gaps than they have defenders...and they have to defend your waggle, toss pass, counter keep pass, power pass and explode 4 verticals pass....if you can coach it, it will work for ya. same with most of the other stuff.

one system you didnt mention...the single wing...you might consider that as well...much like the dw but of course its got the tb in the gun...if you truly have just one stud, maybe this is your ticket.

1. We need a simple system that is possible to execute with a minimal amount of talent.

While DW is not a magic bullet, it is an offense that does not REQUIRE any studs to run. It s a "true team" concept offensively. 11 men need to do THEIR job and not worry about doing anything more. When all 11 do their job, it is a thing of beauty. BUT when all 11 men do not do their job, it still works. Say you pull a guard on a power/superpower/toss play and he does not get to the inside wall to seal a backer, that same backer will still most likely have to re-direct his path in order to get to the ball carrier due to a double-teamed d-lineman being driven into his lap. (in short you still gain yards). Just 1 example here.

It shortens the game...the slow pace coming out of the huddle, and the run first mentality help keep the other team's offense off the field. We have had drives that have lasted full 12 minute quarters. IF you are willing to teach your kids that BALL CONTROL is the first priority you may see this is the case for you as well. Even starting 3 freshmen O-Linmen and 2 Junior TE's with a freshmen FB (that weighed 120lbs)we have had success running the ball (this was 9 man in SD). The doubles and angles are amazing. Gives you smaller guys an advantage. We were 0-8 that year, but averaged 35 points a game and almost 400 rushing yards per game. In short it was not an offensive problem, it was a defensive problem that year. We still remained competitive in every game in a very good league. Had one ballgame we lost 62-58 where we turned the ball over 4 times, lost it on downs once, and never punted. We scored on every posession but the 5 where my youngs guys put the ball on the ground and the one we lost on downs. This was when I knew I had found the right offense, as even a dumb guy like me could see that if we had held on to the ball we would have won the game. This was against a team that was rated at the time, and and had not been beaten in league play.

You have to sell yourself first on this offense, you have to committ to it 100%. Next you need to sell it to your assistant coaches, and they have to buy into it 100%. You need to finally sell it to your kids. If you sell it to the kids with enthusiasm, they will but into it. My kids know 100% we will move the ball against everyone. They have a confidence in the offense, and their ability to execute aginst every defesne we see. Even when that defense is loaded with talent, and we are simply average.

In a chuck and duck scheme how many times will you throw 3 incomplete passes and punt, burning only 25 or so seconds to a minute off the clock (if that)?

2. We will be starting from scratch at QB, so we need a system that is not QB intensive.

Our back up QB this year was a starter at TE. We did not even bother to teach him to take a snap, we taught him everything from the GUN. Every play we run in our offense can be run from the GUN except Super Power (can still run power). I joke with our kids that the QB in this offense is just a Guard that can handle a snap...and it is somewhat the truth. In this offense the QB is actually involved in the play, and the blocking on many occasions. Most QB's who are worth a $hit WANT to be football players, not spectators (as is what happens in many offenses (ie. hand the ball off and turn and watch the TB or FB run). My QB's are TOUGH. And they LOVE to be the guy throwing a block and getting pancakes!

3. Our line is undersized and inexperienced, so I feel that we need to compensate by getting as many people to the point of attack as possible.

Undersized is no problem. Best guard I have ever had was 5'9 160. He was 1st team all district. Teach him proper technique and to run his feet and drive a man for 12 steps. Big defenders HATE it. We trapped a 6'5 285 DI signee at ISU all night with that same guard, and we owned him.
4. We need to focus on a small number of plays and execute them as well as possible.

REPS, REPS, REPS. Less is actually more. DW is based on this. And with some of Wyatt's innovative ideas we are even more able to disguise out intent with formation changes, motions, shifts, double shifts etc. EVERY detail needs to be addressed, and the smallest mistake can not be left unfixed. Many guys who have tried the DW and failed blame the offense, but in my opinion it is their own fault the offense did not work. they either made the mistake of not fixing the little things (attention to detail is vital) or they did not committ 100% to it. This is not an offense for "dabblers". If you plan to dabble in it, I advise you to not run it at all. You will not have success if you dabble. you need to BUY IN!

5. We need to choose our goals carefully and may need to define success in terms other than wins and losses.

Have been through this process myself, and being competitive in each game against quality opponets (read not getting blown out, having the mercy rule going into effect etc.) we did just that. Again 0-8, averaging 35 points and nearly 400 yards rushing a game. We were NEVER blown out, and in 7 of our 8 games that season we had a chance to win late in the 4th quarter. Could not have asked for more from an offense or from my kids. Just wish they could have STOPPED someone, but I blame that on my lack of knowledge defensively in the 9 man game. I had not "committed" to a defense at that time, and I was also dabbling...learned a good lesson.

I am 52-11 at a school your size in 6 years with average kids mostly. We have had 3 seasons of 9-0 in the regular season, and have ended the season ranked #1 in the state in our class. One year we were ranked #1 10 of 10 weeks in ALL polls. Off that team only 3 guys have gone on to play college football, and not one is Division 1 or 1AA.

Other ideas...Single Wing is good. Have witnessed a good SW team in Iowa absolutley destroy the competition on a regular basis. Power T (Dead T) is equally as good. Wing T has had a ton of success. Wishbone running option if you have a smart QB (does not have to be athletic) was successful for my high school team. And (hate to say it) even a spread has had some limited success with little or no talent. Spread is exciting, I mean 65 passes in a game BORES me, but the fans love it, and kids (even no talent ones) think it is fun as well.

For me, the answer is easy. I will DW, and that is it. Whatever you choose, buy in 100% and sell it hard!

Good luck!

What systems would some of you suggest and does anyone see any holes in my logic?

Thanks to everyone for the input, I've got a lot of things to think over....