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Post by coachorr on Nov 10, 2010 14:38:59 GMT -6
How many of you could work in a program where the linemen are told that "footwork" and detailed fundamentals aren't important? That what is important, "is just getting off the ball".
Case in point, I viewed the Reno Pistol blocking progression DVD and handed it on to the powers that be and one response I got was "that is too much technique for our guys". When my vision would be that indy time for olinemen should be a majority of fundamentals, sledwork and one on ones.
Practice for the olinemen has little to do with sledwork or fundamentals, and more to do with play review against different fronts at a thud intensity level.
Dlinemen have been told in the past to not worry about a pass rush move as much as just getting off the block and finding the football. Moreover, when detecting screen to proceed on your path to the quarterback.
These comments have been made on many occaisions in the past. Does this resinate with anyone else? Is this a plausible philosophy for winning football games?
The 80/20 post got me thinking about this and I really have been windering if we have been 80/20 the other way.
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Post by leighty on Nov 10, 2010 14:42:28 GMT -6
Not a coaching staff I would want to work on
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Post by coachguy83 on Nov 10, 2010 15:02:08 GMT -6
I think that is a piss poor way of teaching linemen to play the game of football. Yes getting off of the football is important but if you tell players that it's the only thing they have to worry about they are going to fire out high and get put on their asses regularly. Knowing how to block your base plays against different fronts is also important, but if you have solid blocking rules and good fundamentals it can be accomplished with a very short review period.
I do not believe that your program can have long term success teaching your olinemen to play that way. You did the right thing showing them the blocking progressions dvd and they are fools for brushing you off.
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Post by endersgame on Nov 10, 2010 15:04:11 GMT -6
I had a coach (I won't say who) tell me you couldn't teach pattern-matching to high school kids. I said, "Really, then why do so many high school coaches I talk to have success with it?" He didn't have an answer for me.
When he said that I decided right there I'd never work on the same staff as him. The attitude of "can't" is too poisonous. I feel sorry that you have to work with some "can'ts" who'd rather be stubborn than work towards improvement.
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Post by blb on Nov 10, 2010 15:09:08 GMT -6
Linemen are no better than their feet. Don't care how big they are, how much they Bench or Squat, if they can't move their feet they can't block people or make plays on defense.
So, yes - footwork is vitally important.
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Post by endersgame on Nov 10, 2010 15:12:08 GMT -6
Linemen are no better than their feet. Don't care how big they are, how much they Bench or Squat, if they can't move their feet they can't block people or make plays on defense. So, yes - footwork is vitally important. To piggyback on that, you can't do a whole lot athletically in any sport without good footwork. |
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Post by playsmart on Nov 10, 2010 15:20:22 GMT -6
I realized this problem a while back ago at our school and talked to many coaches. Our program has always jumped into teaching plays before teaching the fundamentals in executing those plays. Also during the season we spend to much time on team stuff instead of individual technique and you can see it towards the end of the season. I hate it. I just go along because I am a newer coach. We are consistently making the playoff but always getting beat against teams that are more fundamentally sound (blocking, catching, carrying, tackles) than us. I believe if we start teaching the finer points of the fundamentals then I think we would start seeing improvement... but what do I know, I am the new guy.
Look at the fundamental of addition. How did we all see the concept behind it? By having 2 beans on the right side and 3 beans on the left side, pushing them together and counting them up. I no long have to add that way because of the numerous repetitions I have had doing addition. I believe it is the same thing with football skills. Before solving complex equations, first you need to learn how to add (Stance), subtract (Start), Multiply (Contact), and divide (Finish). Now putting all of that together you can fully and confidently solve a complex equation (Blocking someone).
If you teach things is a progression and it makes sense, the players will pick it up no matter how complex it is.
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 10, 2010 15:22:34 GMT -6
I would have a hard time working there. I'm fighting for all the indy time I can get with LBs because there's just SO DAMN MUCH for them to learn to do well. We spend a tremendous amount of time on reads (not terrible in and of itself0, but very little with regards to block shedding/destruction or technical proficiency in movement. Consequently, our ILBs who were a Jr and Soph last year are worse fundamentally this year as a Sr/Jr tandem than they were last year.
Indy is where you introduce and refine the technical skills necessary to do the job. Learning the plays/assignments can happen here, but shouldn't be the sole focus, especially to the exclusion of stuff like blocking progressions or footwork for OL.
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Post by airman on Nov 10, 2010 15:39:42 GMT -6
footwork is what makes the lineman. I am a passing coach and I can tell you if you do not have great footwork you cannot be a good pass protector.
one thing I have found out over the years is an average wr with exceptional footwork can compete against a better athlete at corner.
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Post by blb on Nov 10, 2010 15:52:18 GMT -6
Indy is where you introduce and refine the technical skills necessary to do the job. Learning the plays/assignments can happen here, but shouldn't be the sole focus, especially to the exclusion of stuff like blocking progressions or footwork for OL. Individual should be for learning the fundamentals of the position, Group for assignments, play techniques, fronts-stunts, coverages, etc. I tell our kids most important part of practice is the 20-minute Individual Defensive period because that's where they can become a football player and where our football team is made. Doing mostly Team stuff at practice is a lazy and inefficient way to coach. |
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Post by coachorr on Nov 10, 2010 15:53:14 GMT -6
THese are a few simple examples, yet I believe they are a part of an overarching problem and can be seen throughout. I believe a better team can beat a lesser team more often than not, however, evenly matched teams or even a lesser team can win with better fundamentals.
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Post by calicoachh on Nov 10, 2010 16:07:22 GMT -6
we emphasize the concept of indivdual time as fundemental period so that we organize practice so that during special teams (not alot of o-line participation) it serves as additional footwork and technique time. Getting off the ball is important, but when you get off teh ball with good feet adn technique is when we open BIG holes.
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 10, 2010 16:30:27 GMT -6
THese are a few simple examples, yet I believe they are a part of an overarching problem and can be seen throughout. I believe a better team can beat a lesser team more often than not, however, evenly matched teams or even a lesser team can win with better fundamentals. Agreed...along with execution, no penalties, no turnovers. I believe in fundamentals...but I also believe you teach what a kid is bad at. I would sya we have kids that, when blocking right, take a small step to the right and explode...so I don't even teach it. Now if a kid is stepping with his wrong foot, or taking too big a step, then I teach THAT kid. Thats just me though |
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Post by k on Nov 10, 2010 16:36:11 GMT -6
I don't know a good line coach who isn't super anal about footwork...
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Post by gdn56 on Nov 10, 2010 16:44:34 GMT -6
I feel like a lack of commitment to fundamental time and instead teaching the game is if you were the controller of a Madden team on Xbox is a large problem with many coaches today. Many emphasize the x's and o's so much that we forget kids need to know and rep HOW to do things. Its not always enough to just fire out and go to the right spot, in fact, that is rarely enough.
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 10, 2010 16:45:40 GMT -6
Indy is where you introduce and refine the technical skills necessary to do the job. Learning the plays/assignments can happen here, but shouldn't be the sole focus, especially to the exclusion of stuff like blocking progressions or footwork for OL. Individual should be for learning the fundamentals of the position, Group for assignments, play techniques, fronts-stunts, coverages, etc. I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing w/ me here... No dispute here! |
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Post by dubber on Nov 10, 2010 17:01:26 GMT -6
I don't know a good line coach who isn't super anal about footwork... I will meet you sir at the china buffet.......winner, winner chicken dinner. Why has Rich Rod taken Rick Trickett with him EVERYWHERE? Here is the thing you have be cognizant of..........because what people are espousing with this Mickey Mouse "get off the ball" BS is they don't want timidity............. In 09' we did a great job in indy fundamentally......which promptly feel apart in TEAM. We found that we would whistle progress 1 and 2 step so much, that the kids never got reps at doing those 2 steps fluidly.......so they revert to their fluid way of doing things in team (which means they false step...........) We developed a run block progression series that seems redundant, but actually builds up to those muscle memory at full speed reps. I mean, handle what you can handle (I don't think you want 19 coaching points), but, yeah, that comment is ridiculous. Where there is a false step, I will find it. Because son, every time you false step, a little piece of me dies inside. Does it feel good to be killing your coach, son, because that is what you are doing. Everytime you fail to use inside footwork, my heart tightens up and I get shortness of breath. Right now, I think there are 2 of you because I am so dizzy from lack of oxygen to my brain. Everytime you take the wrong angle, I nearly blackout from the trauma it does to my internal organs. I have a wife and kids, they depend on me, I have a future full of grandkids and camping trips, THAT I WILL NEVER SEE BECAUSE YOU KEEP FALSE STEPPING! YOUR LITERALLY KILLING ME SON, DO YOU WANT THAT ON YOUR CONSCIOUS? DO YOU? &%$#! I SWEAR TO GOD IF YOU FALSE STEP ONE MORE TIME I WILL HAVE A BRAIN ANEURYSM, AND MY LAST ACT ON THIS EARTH WILL BE TO FILE YOUR HEAD OFF WITH A QUARTER AND TAKE A DUMP DOWN YOUR THROAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 10, 2010 17:23:15 GMT -6
Footwork is super important.
Nuf said.
One of the best videos on OL I've seen is Ed Thomas'. If he says OL footwork is important......then it IS important.
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Post by davechode on Nov 10, 2010 19:05:45 GMT -6
I'll preface this by saying that I'm an OL coach who stresses footwork.
The OL coach for the Packers on the COOL clinic DVD about OZ mentioned that he isn't big on coaching footwork, rather coaches aiming points. If the linemen are stepping in the correct direction, and have the aiming point in mind, then the footwork will take care of itself.
I guess dealing with NFL players is different than what most of us face here, but I just thought I'd put that up for the sake of completeness.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Nov 10, 2010 20:09:21 GMT -6
Cheating the kids. They are the ones who will suffer when they don't have the skills they need to compete, and then the coach will say "we just don't have enough tallent here." I've seen it before, and I hate it for the kids.
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Post by phantom on Nov 10, 2010 20:35:27 GMT -6
Isn't footwork an important part of coming off the ball?
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Post by Yash on Nov 10, 2010 21:22:30 GMT -6
Isn't footwork an important part of coming off the ball? There are too many Nike style coaches out there. They want the kids to "Just Do It" without ever teaching them how to do it. I work with a guy whose primary coaching points are "Do good" and "don't suck" I want to leave him behind on our farthest road game so he can't make it back to practice. hes horrible. I'm sick of people not wanting to teach technique. We walk through so much crap that our kids play games at walk through speed. (with crappy technique because we walk through instead of working technique) so now we have kids who play slow with crappy technique, doesn't matter what Xs and Os we are running, its easy to defend when you mix those two. |
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hawke
Sophomore Member
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Post by hawke on Nov 10, 2010 21:24:56 GMT -6
Have always hung a sign to get the point across. Not too many paid attention to it this year - 3-7
NO FEET, DEFEAT!!!!
View most losing teams and you will see this to be true whether it be the linemen or backs, both offensively and defensively.
From the ropes to hopscotch to the tango, you must have feet. Years ago, when I was really crazy and no one screamed about it, I would line them up and throw rocks at their feet . They moved very quickly. Damn, I wish I could still do that!!!
Hawke
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coachood
Sophomore Member
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. -Vince Lombardi
Posts: 173
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Post by coachood on Nov 10, 2010 22:22:58 GMT -6
Isn't footwork an important part of coming off the ball? There are too many Nike style coaches out there. They want the kids to "Just Do It" without ever teaching them how to do it. I work with a guy whose primary coaching points are "Do good" and "don't suck" I want to leave him behind on our farthest road game so he can't make it back to practice. hes horrible. I'm sick of people not wanting to teach technique. We walk through so much crap that our kids play games at walk through speed. (with crappy technique because we walk through instead of working technique) so now we have kids who play slow with crappy technique, doesn't matter what Xs and Os we are running, its easy to defend when you mix those two. I'm in a similar situation. Why can some people just not get it? The results(or lack there of) should be convincing but I guess that we're dealing with Einstein's definition of insanity. |
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Post by ajreaper on Nov 10, 2010 23:25:07 GMT -6
Anytime a player is told to do something rather then taught to do something there's a problem- "Get off the ball or get off the block"are taught skills. My guess is also that when they fail to do as they are told it's their fault for "not listening". Not really any coaching going on at all.
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Post by coachbdud on Nov 10, 2010 23:56:54 GMT -6
generally yes it is important, but i have coached a few weird kids that the more you coached them the worst they got
I had a DT 2 years ago, worst stance youll ever see, but he dominated. When i tried working on things he was uncomfortable and couldnt get off.
So pre snap he was fugly, but he kicked @ss once the ball was snapped. Everything about what he did was wrong, but it was the only way he could play. Believe me i tried, for 2 years, but the more i changed about him the worst he was. Sometimes you just gotta let a kid be comfortable. The old, if it aint broke dont fix it
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Post by coachorr on Nov 11, 2010 0:44:04 GMT -6
What (who) versus how. First I have to know who I have, but that ain't gonna do me much good if I don't understand the how. And the only way to teach the how, is through muscle memory and the only way to achieve that is through repitition. Progression is paramount and knowing what level of progression needs to be coached is crucial. Do you need to spend ten minutes on stance everyday? No, but one may need to in the summer or at the beginning of the season.
I am a big proponent of linemen using the sled during conditioning instead of running with the team to condition. Maybe not at the start of the season, but as the season goes on, I will send the linemen to do sledwork during team conditioning more often than not.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 11, 2010 0:47:22 GMT -6
Isn't footwork an important part of coming off the ball? There are too many Nike style coaches out there. They want the kids to "Just Do It" without ever teaching them how to do it. I work with a guy whose primary coaching points are "Do good" and "don't suck" I want to leave him behind on our farthest road game so he can't make it back to practice. hes horrible. I'm sick of people not wanting to teach technique. We walk through so much crap that our kids play games at walk through speed. (with crappy technique because we walk through instead of working technique) so now we have kids who play slow with crappy technique, doesn't matter what Xs and Os we are running, its easy to defend when you mix those two. "It all comes down to who wants it more." WTF? is that supposed to mean? |
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swoop
Freshmen Member
[F4:Swoop36]
Posts: 64
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Post by swoop on Nov 11, 2010 2:17:58 GMT -6
I would never take a job on such a staff. Feet is everything in this game and OL leads the charge if you ask me. Foot movement and placement are things that we drill with our OL again and again and again and... (you guys get the point) Nike style coach?? Never heard that before but I really like it  |
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Post by coachdennis on Nov 11, 2010 11:56:19 GMT -6
I am both a head coach, and the offensive line coach. Hearing that "footwork isn't important" just makes me want to scream. You have GOT to be kidding me. Footwork is the building block for everything we do. We have a slate of drills we call our "every days", and most of them involve footwork. Last practice before the championship game, and what did my kids do? Our "every days". Got to the point where my veterans led them, and were the ones ensuring good fundamentals.
The best selling point I can think of for footwork is this - with good footwork (and handwork), you can take a smallish, not overly aggressive kid and make him into a passable starter on your offensive line. Let's be honest - in youth football, especially at the junior high and below age groups, we ALL have some of those kids. (A lot of senior high programs at places with low numbers probably have some as well.)
Here's my reply for those who claim it is all "too much for the kids to remember". How in the world do you think they teach young actors their lines for a play? My daughter is a competitive figure skater, and she has to remember a multitude of moves for a solo that lasts for well over three minutes. And coaches claim we are giving kids "too much" for a play lasting five seconds? Ludicrous. No, coaches don't WANT to teach fundamentals because it is repetitive, hard work, and not nearly as much fun as drawing up plays and running system. The Championship, though, will be won at youth levels by the team whose fundamentals were the best. Period.
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