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Post by groundchuck on Jan 12, 2006 7:27:33 GMT -6
There are coaches and programs out there that simply "do what they do". In other words they might run the wing-t or the power I, or maybe a certain core of plays. They run it year in and year out and never deviate from it. In years when they have better talent they win more games, advance deeper in the playoffs etc. When they have less talent they still run the scheme and same plays, they just don't win as much. They do this as opposed to retooling the offense every year based on talent. Now I think there are two schools of thought here. One is what is stated above: "This is what we do, fit the kids into it." The other is the coaches who tweak or change things year to year.
What are the pros and cons to either of these philosophies?
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Post by saintrad on Jan 12, 2006 8:12:42 GMT -6
the most obvious would be trying to fiot the kids into a specific scheme every year is prone to have a series of down years when the talent level is down, as you said. Yes, they may have had this scheme throughtout their playing career (Pop Warner, Middle school, etc) but if one is unwilling to find a different emphasis within the scheme to fit the talent of the players, then the possibility of multiple down years in a row is there.
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Post by pegleg on Jan 12, 2006 8:24:02 GMT -6
i think you have to have a combonation of both ideas.
i believe everyone needs to have a philosophy or identity. mine is spread zone and chunk it around. throw to run.
now, having said that, i also believe that sometimes i must tweak this. to me twaek means not changing philosophies, but smal things about what you do. maybe i have a great back one year, and my wrs aren't as good. that year i'm going to run alot more. not going to change formations or plays just they way i use the personel.
i believe in what i do and am not going to change it. however i am going to adapt to my kids abilities within the system.
Holla
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 12, 2006 8:38:39 GMT -6
being a dw coach....(and you should have my highlights soon) id say that we run the fb and qb more when we have better athletes there but we always establish the toss...thats what we do.
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Post by knighter on Jan 12, 2006 8:46:38 GMT -6
Steve-
That is what we have found is so nice in the DW, it is flexible enough that you can do both. In years where we have a QB that can throw, and some guys who can catch we throw a little more, in years where we have a back who is worthy of more carries we can run some Stack with him at the deep tail, in years where we have 3 or 4 good backs we can utilize them all. If we have better speed we can run some jet, and some sweep, more power we run super and g and trap. It is a very flexible system, and like you goal number 1 is to establish the off tackle power or superpower. It is what we call "the bread and butter" play, and we will be able to run it every year with the kids we have (might just be a formation change).
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 12, 2006 9:02:53 GMT -6
yeah, in two 7 game seasons with just 8 minute quarters our fbs have scored 28 tds...completely different talent there from one year to the next. funny huh....but the wings get their yards and tds off that toss play for sure.
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Post by coachjd on Jan 12, 2006 9:17:02 GMT -6
I agree with Peg. You must have a sound philosophy with in your scheme but adapt formations, personel groups, run or pass game emphasis based on the talent level you have.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 9:43:11 GMT -6
Were a little different, the language stays the same year in and year out, but the offensive "look" can drastically change due to talent, from wishbone, wing T, double slot, Power I, multiple one back, to one back and gun spread....using the same verbage to communicate. It's easier IMO for the coach to adapt his attack to suite his talent than to ask the kids to do what they can't. I guess it would be the same as asking for a calvalry charge without any horses or for airborne to jump without parachutes, it has been done but it isn't very effective.....need the right tool for the job...
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 9:54:49 GMT -6
And to add to my previous post, when we have talent and intelligence, we can do a bunch. Most coaches are in the school of thought that you do a little bit and do it well, I agree to a point, bread and butter is good to fall back on, but not good for dinner night in/night out.....we do this until the kids are bored with it and want to continue to learn. When their lightbulb goes on we try to teach them as much as they can handle, once they start learning and doing different stuff they are like football junkies, soaking it all up. You know you've done something when the kid says, "coach you called that wrong, besides, I think this would work better against this front and coverage".....2 years ago I had 6 kids that could get on the grease board and show every positions responsibilty vs various defenses, this last year none, so we didn't do as much, but were still sucessfull.
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Post by airman on Jan 12, 2006 9:55:15 GMT -6
i know a guy who runs the same few plays each year and he is very successful.
he runs the double wing. he runs toss, rocket toss(wider toss) counter, fullback trap or dive.
his theory is, few plays and become perfect at running these few plays. he comes right at you and runs about 70 plays agame. he is successful every year.
mike leach has the same theory at texas tech. limited plays, max reps.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 10:27:55 GMT -6
I've beaten and lost to teams that keep it simple, but I've always believed that if you take away their bread and butter, they struggle to adapt. IMO, adaptable is good, rigid is....limited.
However, its not the system, but whether the kids can do it and more importantly, do the want to be a part of it? Here's an example of an HS that has a lot of talent, speed and size- I mean a lot. The coach has been there for 12 years now and has stedfastly stayed with his double wing.....the talented kids don't want to play in this offense so they don't go out for football-they play basketball or run track or go to other schools, he has been 0-11 for the last two years, but he's sticking to his "philosophy" because he believes in his system. This school has D-1 type kids not playing football because of this. The point is sometimes being locked into a system will deprive a coach of good athletes because they aren't interested in being a " really fast tackle" or blocking TE.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 12, 2006 10:32:40 GMT -6
I bring it up in the first place b/c I know several coaches who have been around the block a few times and they "just do what they do". I think alot of wing-t coaches are in that mold. But I also know those guys tweak things here and there. For example a great wing-t coach I know runs the buck series a ton, but when his QB is slow and not a good passer does not use the waggle much. But when he has that talented QB waggle can be a big time play for them. Same with the FB trap etc. But it stays within the confines of the wing-t. He never goes "well this year we have 3 really good rec, lets spread'm out." those kids play WB. Keep in mind I am not saying wing-t guys are not flexible, or able to adjust. Just that the guys I know who run it like it, and know it well.
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coachy
Sophomore Member
Posts: 219
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Post by coachy on Jan 12, 2006 10:52:29 GMT -6
Clinton Oklahoma has ran the same offense for 15 years. They have won 6 state chapionships since "92. They run the same plays when they start football in the 6th grade. They were the smallest school in thier class during this chapionship run. So there is a PRO for running the same system. I think you have to do a little of both. Have a basic philosophy but be able to tweek it to your talent.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 12, 2006 13:00:50 GMT -6
By running a sytem and series of plays, you learn the offense in great detail, same with defense...if you stick with it, you learn how others defense /attack what you do. soon, you learn to practice stuff to counter their defenses and attacks....consider that some schools hear have run wing-t for years and years...everyone knows its coming, still, they cant stop it. i think our A school has won like 4 straight state titles running the wing-t.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 13:08:59 GMT -6
Wing/DW guys, I'm not arguing with systems or proven success, what I'm saying is a kinda when round pegs don't fit in square holes.....thing, need to do something to make it work.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 13:16:34 GMT -6
Pegleg, no pun intended!!!!
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 12, 2006 13:24:54 GMT -6
jhanawa, while there may be some coaches dumb enough to let a division I wr or qb sit on the bench I know Im not. What attracted me to the double wing in the first place was watching 10 straight passes hit the turf AGAINST AIR in practice. when you dont have athletes you have to pick a system that lets dufuses and goof balls move the ball. If I had only one good wr, the wing-t is better than the pro I where id need a good wr, good flanker, great tailback and a fb and te too...then id need a strong weak side tackle and qb who could read the defense and audible out of bad calls yada yada yada...sometimes it makes sense to build your whole program on the MAJORITY OF ATHLETES not the one or two studs you might see...even as a nutty dw coach, i know if i had Barry Sanders on my team hed get the ball 90% of the time and wed run Stack I and I wing too....if i had a jerry rice wed throw to him every down. stupid not to. but that doesnt mean i cant have a P-H-I-L-O-S-O-P-H-Y that my whole program is built around. The wing-t isnt just a formation and neither is "the double wing" that we refer to because you can adapt it to your talent. Anyhow, I say this, wing-T= philosophy, double wing = attitude, spread= disease lol...just kidding.
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Post by airman on Jan 12, 2006 13:35:13 GMT -6
i hear all the time how coaches do not want to do one thing very well because the other team might take it away.
I point to georgia southern and there double slot triple option set. they have had such a great run with it. national titles, playoffs almost every year, confrence champions. they run the triple, counter, double and some midline option. they focus on doing one thing great, instead of alot of things well.
I would rather do one thing great and take my chances, then to hope I can do a lot of things well and might catch the defense of guard.
it is why I feel if you are going to pass the ball, it better be all you do and do it at such a level, you can beat you can beat other teams.
I think when you try and mix the run in with the pass or the pass in with the run at the h.s. level your are fooling yourself. unless you can two platoon.
like I said this guy lives off the toss. does lose, some times, does he beat teams he has no business beating, sometimes, does he beat the teams he should beat, all the time.
his theory is reps, reps ,reps and more reps. the thing is wiith the double wing he runs, they run it all the way down in 4th grade where they start in the youth program. imagine 7 years of running the dw by the time you hit your jr year in h.s..
i am not a big fan of the DW, but I respect what it can do for teams.
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Post by brophy on Jan 12, 2006 13:45:14 GMT -6
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Post by knighter on Jan 12, 2006 14:29:21 GMT -6
picture this steve
R. Bush at A Back
L. White at B Back
Williams (Memphis) at C Back
V. Young at QB
USC or Texas O-Line
USC TE
Notre Dame TE
Now could you put points on the board in DW WoW!!!
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 15:02:00 GMT -6
Not arguing with you Coach Calande, nothing wrong with the DW or WT or WB or whatever, perhaps I shouldn't have been detailed in the analogy above about a DW coach, perhaps I should have said a "certain" offense. Anyway nothing wrong with philosophy, everyone has one, mine is probably just a little on the warped and open side of the spectrum in that I don't buy into a "religion" of an offense, simply put, football is a game and on offense the goal is to move the ball and score, doesn't matter how you do it as long as you do it more than your opponent does. This goes back to where I learned football from, my HS coach was a Woody Hayes practicioner and we pounded the football, in college I had 4 different Offensive Coordinators in 4 years (I transfered schools), so I was exposed to a few different yet good philosophies from sucessfull coaches, I could take a long time and tell the story but I'll summarize and say that I learned and use stuff from each system, including the GSU stuff mentioned above, who's OC by the way brought that stuff to the school I was at in 1987, so I'm familiar with it on a word for word basis, 12 veer, 12 zone......
So whatever works.......works......
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 12, 2006 17:00:14 GMT -6
Thats exactly right, its just a game. amazing how guys get their panties all in bunch over this game too isnt it.
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Post by tog on Jan 12, 2006 17:04:40 GMT -6
Thats exactly right, its just a game. amazing how guys get their panties all in bunch over this game too isnt it. Sounds like you are the one getting panties bunched up more than anything. Calande, just because someone disagrees with you in another thread doesn't mean to spread it out (like the pun?) all onto every thread on the board. |
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 12, 2006 17:30:17 GMT -6
Tog, what are you talking about? cmon give it a rest.
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Post by tog on Jan 12, 2006 17:43:14 GMT -6
Tog, what are you talking about? cmon give it a rest. I am talking about you getting all worked up on a thread where KW mentioned something that he disagreed with you on. YOU are the one that needs to give it a rest. |
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Post by coachjd on Jan 12, 2006 18:41:26 GMT -6
I'm usually pretty quiet and take a back seat on a lot of these type of issues. Coach Calande some of your responses can be a little on edge. Whether you believe they may be or not. I think the DW can be a great offense and I will not argue with your P-H-I-L-O-S-O-P-H-Y, because every coach needs to have his own personal philosophy. But when another coach brings up an idea that may not go along with the DW or YOUR P-H-I-L-O-S-O-P-H-Y, you make a remark like this:
After reading your post on the Doublewingers message board, I'm not too sure you are kidding??
KW, questioned you on professionalism by posting emails. So what, he was right. I don't care if you put in made up names, the intent to publically criticize the school, principal or AD is there.
In all respect to this great game of football that we all love, whether its the wing-t, single wing, double wing, spread, etc... lets please uphold a level of profesionalism that is expected by coaches.
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