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Aug 10, 2010 22:38:59 GMT -6
Post by FBCoachMike on Aug 10, 2010 22:38:59 GMT -6
Just finished 7th practice (2nd in pads). WE STINK!!! What can I do to light a fire under these kids pants??? There is no energy, no enthusiasm...I'm not sure they are even breathing sometimes.
Secondly, we can't tackle worth a darn. Even my returners who know the way we do things stink. Anybody ever just do tackling drills for a whole practice or practices??? I broke tackling down to it's tiniest parts from day one and each day we added more parts.
Please advise.
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Aug 11, 2010 0:01:35 GMT -6
Post by coachdoug on Aug 11, 2010 0:01:35 GMT -6
Coach - the fact that you have this attitude is a strong indicator that both you and your team are headed in the right direction. Welcome to the neurosis/psychosis that is being a coach. Every year, after watching the video of our first game, I go into a deep, dark depression - win or lose, I can't believe how bad our team is, and by association how lousy of a coach I am. I can't believe how I've fooled people into believing I know what I'm doing, because I obviously don't know anything. I never should have taken up this endeavor and the kids are all going to hate me forever for screwing up whatever chance they had to be any good at this game. Then I buckle down, go to work, coach through the mistakes - the kids get better and everything works out okay in the end.
Yes, spending an entire practice working on form tackling and breaking it down to the tiniest components is a good use of time, and it will pay dividends down the road.
Talk to Joe (mhcoach) - every year during the first week, he's convinced that his team is only going to one game, max. Well, his teams have been in the last 3 AYF national championship games (winning twice and losing once in OT) in his division (14u). As coaches, once we become satisfied, we stagnate - there is always something new to learn, some new technique to teach or scheme to understand. If we feel comfortable, some other more motivated coach will pass us by. It is competition at its finest, and it's one of the reasons I love coaching so much.
As far as lighting a fire under your kids' rears, the easiest way to that is to make all your drills competitive. That is, make the kids go against each other one-on-one with a clear winner and a clear loser on each rep (you can even assign the loser a symbolic punishment like 5 pushups to drive the point home). When the kids know that their peers will see the results of the competition (especially if they have to publicly carry out the loser's "punishment") you will see an incredible level of effort.
You're doing fine - just stick with it, keep coaching what you know the kids need to learn and they'll get better and they'll eventually thank you for all the things they're complaining about now. Hang in there.
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Aug 11, 2010 5:37:48 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 11, 2010 5:37:48 GMT -6
Stauffer
Welcome to being a coach. Check out my post on 1st practice blues. Here is always the issue, players only think they are working hard & have enthusiasim. They need to learn to work hard. It has taken us 6 or 7 practices in pads to just get to where practice is beginning to look decent. We are still working through these issues. My team never seems to be where they should be.
Doug thanks for the kudos.
One thing that helps us with tackling is using the Miami Tackling circuit. Going slow & really teaching tackling will help your players in the long run.
Joe
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Aug 11, 2010 9:19:07 GMT -6
Post by FBCoachMike on Aug 11, 2010 9:19:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the encouragement. Man, I've coached college, high school and youth football and always THOUGHT I kinda knew what I was doing. My hair turned 3 shades of gray yesterday.
Joe, I do a 4 station tackling circuit but after looking at the Miami circuit, I realized 2 of my stations are advanced stations. Thanks for making me aware of that. Doing the Miami circuit TODAY!
Thanks again guys.
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Aug 11, 2010 9:51:18 GMT -6
Post by davecisar on Aug 11, 2010 9:51:18 GMT -6
Stauffer Welcome to being a coach. Check out my post on 1st practice blues. Here is always the issue, players only think they are working hard & have enthusiasim. They need to learn to work hard. It has taken us 6 or 7 practices in pads to just get to where practice is beginning to look decent. We are still working through these issues. My team never seems to be where they should be. Doug thanks for the kudos. One thing that helps us with tackling is using the Miami Tackling circuit. Going slow & really teaching tackling will help your players in the long run. Joe Tell us about the Miami Tackle Circuit DC
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Aug 11, 2010 10:47:24 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 11, 2010 10:47:24 GMT -6
I got the circuit from Coach Shannon when he was the DC at Miami. It's what they do every day, consisst of 3 stations.
1) On Knees pure form tackle Key coaching points are Head position Hands (shoot the hands grab clothe) & hips
They start seated on their heels. The man being tackled gets very close to them. This is a non contact drill & no one goes to the ground.
HAT- Tackler fits his shoulder pad into the BC, skys his eyes on the ball.
HANDS- Tackler violently shoots his hands between the BC's arms grabbing clothe & pulling down
HIPS- Tackler thrusts his hips forward 2) Angle tackle Short distance 1/2 speed concentrate on form
3) Angle & Strip we teach punch or rip the ball here
I first started using this about 10 years ago. It really makes a huge difference & eliminates arm tackles.
Hope that helps
Joe
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Aug 11, 2010 14:00:02 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 11, 2010 14:00:02 GMT -6
I got the circuit from Coach Shannon when he was the DC at Miami. It's what they do every day, consisst of 3 stations. 1) On Knees pure form tackle Key coaching points are Head position Hands (shoot the hands grab clothe) & hips They start seated on their heels. The man being tackled gets very close to them. This is a non contact drill & no one goes to the ground. HAT- Tackler fits his shoulder pad into the BC, skys his eyes on the ball. HANDS- Tackler violently shoots his hands between the BC's arms grabbing clothe & pulling down HIPS- Tackler thrusts his hips forward Huh. Interesting. I don't think I've seen this. Reads as if you're trying to run over the ballcarrier, while the techniques I know all try to go, to some degree or other, under the ballcarrier. Am I reading this right?
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Aug 11, 2010 14:06:38 GMT -6
Post by coachmsl on Aug 11, 2010 14:06:38 GMT -6
Joe,
I would also like a little more information on the 1st station of the tackling circuit. Having a little trouble picturing.
coachstauffer, Keep you head up!
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Aug 11, 2010 14:29:39 GMT -6
Post by coachdoug on Aug 11, 2010 14:29:39 GMT -6
I got the circuit from Coach Shannon when he was the DC at Miami. It's what they do every day, consisst of 3 stations. 1) On Knees pure form tackle Key coaching points are Head position Hands (shoot the hands grab clothe) & hips They start seated on their heels. The man being tackled gets very close to them. This is a non contact drill & no one goes to the ground. HAT- Tackler fits his shoulder pad into the BC, skys his eyes on the ball. HANDS- Tackler violently shoots his hands between the BC's arms grabbing clothe & pulling down HIPS- Tackler thrusts his hips forward Huh. Interesting. I don't think I've seen this. Reads as if you're trying to run over the ballcarrier, while the techniques I know all try to go, to some degree or other, under the ballcarrier. Am I reading this right? Your reading it wrong, Bob. As I understand the drill it starts with a defender on his knees with his butt back by his heels. The "ballcarrier" (and I put that in quotes because I believe this drill is generally done wthout a ball) stands straight up and down, just a few inches away, and directly in front of the defender. On the coach's call of "HAT" the defender shoots his head across the BC to where the ball would be - he stops there with a good fit and freeze. The coach calls "HANDS" and the defender shoots his hands through and grabs cloth on the BC's back and pulls down. Up until now, the defender's butt should still be sitting back on his heels. Then the coach calls "HIPS" and the defender fires his hips forward while continue to pull down on the BC's back. It is very much a no/low contact drill that is designed to drill home proper technique and form - good head placement, proper shooting of the hands (rather than old school "wrapping up"), and firing the hips through for power. Joe, please correct me if I got any of this wrong. I'm trying to give my best recollection of this drill from how I've seen it demonstrated as well as your description to me. I have run versions of this in the past, but never as an every day drill. I think I probably should make it an every day drill.
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Aug 12, 2010 6:57:45 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 12, 2010 6:57:45 GMT -6
Doug
Great explanation! We use this drill every day. Last nite it took 11 minutes, each player getting 8 reps on their knee's(4 each side), 8 angle tackles, & 4 strips. PacoPaul & I coached our butts off. We stress great fundamentals, key points being proper head placement(this is a SAFETY ISSUE). We constantly stress "Sky your Eyes!". The hands can't be brought till there is contact, this eliminates arm tackling. The hips are where the power & pop come from. This drill helps us because it is a low impact drill & reduces injuries. Many years I believed the only way to teach tackling was to tackle. I was wrong!
Joe
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Aug 12, 2010 7:31:38 GMT -6
Post by coachbrek on Aug 12, 2010 7:31:38 GMT -6
I got the circuit from Coach Shannon when he was the DC at Miami. It's what they do every day, consisst of 3 stations. 1) On Knees pure form tackle Key coaching points are Head position Hands (shoot the hands grab clothe) & hips They start seated on their heels. The man being tackled gets very close to them. This is a non contact drill & no one goes to the ground. HAT- Tackler fits his shoulder pad into the BC, skys his eyes on the ball. HANDS- Tackler violently shoots his hands between the BC's arms grabbing clothe & pulling down HIPS- Tackler thrusts his hips forward 2) Angle tackle Short distance 1/2 speed concentrate on form 3) Angle & Strip we teach punch or rip the ball here I first started using this about 10 years ago. It really makes a huge difference & eliminates arm tackles. Hope that helps Joe We use the same drill, I got it from a college D-coordinator years ago it is excellent to work the small details of tackling that is hard to rep going full speed with youth players. THE BEST drill I use to get our kids to tackle is the angle tackle into crash pads. I lay down six half round bags and set up cones in the direction I want the runner and tackler to take. The runner and tackler meet at the apex of the cones and the tackler will tackle the runner into the bags. The kids love it, we get great violent hits and both the runners and tacklers giggle as they are scrambling off the bags we keep it high energy make a huge deal when a good job is done and encourage everyone to make the same play. Every day kids ask if we are going to run that drill, they they really do love it!
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Aug 12, 2010 11:33:20 GMT -6
Post by Chris Clement on Aug 12, 2010 11:33:20 GMT -6
One week I was the only coach available, and I had one leg in a zimmer cast and I was hopped up on percocet, so pretty much the only coaching I could do was either chalkboard stuff, or one big whole team drill, and we`d lost our last game due to various reasons, but mostly atrocious tackling.
So we did about 5 solid hours of pure tackling practice that week, in which time I realized my best hitter by far was a girl, who kept hurting all the boys (not injured, they just no longer had the will to go into contact against her.) and my safety was my worst tackler. A couple of adjustments later, and we become the baddest 11-yr old defense ever to take the field in Northern Quebec, and for the rest of the season we score three times as many points off turnovers as points allowed.
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Aug 12, 2010 11:45:16 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 12, 2010 11:45:16 GMT -6
Huh. Interesting. I don't think I've seen this. Reads as if you're trying to run over the ballcarrier, while the techniques I know all try to go, to some degree or other, under the ballcarrier. Am I reading this right? Your reading it wrong, Bob. As I understand the drill it starts with a defender on his knees with his butt back by his heels. The "ballcarrier" (and I put that in quotes because I believe this drill is generally done wthout a ball) stands straight up and down, That's the part I didn't get, thanks. I thought they were both on their knees. Why is this better? I've seen kids put their hands in front and push off as if they were trying to shed or protect themselves instead of tackle. Wouldn't this encourage the same? Doesn't old school wrapping up emphasize the body contact first?
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Aug 12, 2010 13:30:44 GMT -6
Post by Chris Clement on Aug 12, 2010 13:30:44 GMT -6
I`m big on wrapping, since my smallest kid is one-third the size of my biggest kid (literally). I emphasize that you don`t always have to flatten the opponent, if you can just be a damned inconvenience then help will arrive. Shooting the hands seems like a fairly small technique adjustment, but the premise of hanging on to the opponent is certainly still present.
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Aug 12, 2010 21:16:42 GMT -6
Post by daveinsarasota on Aug 12, 2010 21:16:42 GMT -6
I tried the "club up/grab cloth" method....perhaps I was not coaching it right. I went back to the good old fashioned "hit, wrap, and drive/bite the ball". It was like night and day.
Chest tackling is popular, and I know many experts prefer this method...but when we have tried it, the defense was soft and very penetrable. Again...perhaps it was me.
I will stick to what works for us. Missed tackles are VERY rare on our defense.
I do, however, know many coaches who are successful with the chest tackle method...which, to me was always associated with the Miami circuit (perhaps I am wrong in my thinking). So...I am not here to insult anyone. Just my opinion on the result when I tried the method.
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Aug 13, 2010 6:36:23 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 13, 2010 6:36:23 GMT -6
D I S
When we first made the transition to shooting our hands it took a little time for the coaches & players to become acclamated to using this method. The results are well worth the effort. We forced more fumbles, our tackling became more violent, & the biggest benifit was no arm tackles. When I brought this to Mint Hill one of my coaches figured out the answer why. Shooting of the hands is a much more athletic move then wrapping the arms(which is an unnatural move). Yes, patience is required but with in 2 weeks you will see the difference. This method isn't chest tackling as much as proper form, we aim for the football as our point of contact(some coaches teach the arm pit which is closer to chest tackling). The bring of the hips really increases the collision & forces the defender to run through the contact. If you have any questions I will send you my cell# in a PM.
Joe
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Aug 13, 2010 11:20:58 GMT -6
Post by daveinsarasota on Aug 13, 2010 11:20:58 GMT -6
D I S When we first made the transition to shooting our hands it took a little time for the coaches & players to become acclamated to using this method. The results are well worth the effort. We forced more fumbles, our tackling became more violent, & the biggest benifit was no arm tackles. When I brought this to Mint Hill one of my coaches figured out the answer why. Shooting of the hands is a much more athletic move then wrapping the arms(which is an unnatural move). Yes, patience is required but with in 2 weeks you will see the difference. This method isn't chest tackling as much as proper form, we aim for the football as our point of contact(some coaches teach the arm pit which is closer to chest tackling). The bring of the hips really increases the collision & forces the defender to run through the contact. If you have any questions I will send you my cell# in a PM. Joe Thanks Joe...that was a good explanation. Patience was not my firend with that. PErhaps we should revisit it.
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Aug 13, 2010 11:39:01 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 13, 2010 11:39:01 GMT -6
I'm still having a trouble visualizing the shooting. I imagine both arms are cocked, forearms held back, when contact is made with the shoulder, and then you quickly extend both arms, aiming at...? One description above says they go between the BC's arms, Doug says they grab cloth on the BC's back...hard for me to imagine both together.
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Aug 13, 2010 11:46:28 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 13, 2010 11:46:28 GMT -6
D I S
I am old school like you(ok even older). However, results are what matter to me. I was so impressed in our first season teaching this, that it shocked me. Best thing was the elimination of arm tackles. Perhaps I was teaching it wrong all those years, but it works now.
Joe
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Aug 13, 2010 13:11:36 GMT -6
Post by Chris Clement on Aug 13, 2010 13:11:36 GMT -6
Actually, now that you explain th whole arm-shooting like that, that`s sort of what we were doing all along. But the key to avoiding arm-tackles seems to lie more in making good contact, with either the shoulder or the chest, and the actions of the arms seems less crucial, though I see how it could force more fumbles.
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Aug 14, 2010 12:57:55 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 14, 2010 12:57:55 GMT -6
Bob
We aren't describing a lever, sprocket, or cog. We are talking about a player. We stress our tacklers to be athletic, having any part of the body tense(as cocking would require) makes for an unnatural move. In a perfect world we would always shoot the hands between the Bic's arms. If the angle of the tackle isn't quite right (72.5 degrees as opposed to 83.5 degrees) then one hand would be shot outside the Bic's arms. Remember a player is a living breathing thing not an inanimate object.
If the tackler is coming from the front, he shoots his hands & grabs clothe. This is approximately where the snaps on the shoulder pads are. He then pulls down as thrusts his hips. If he were tackling from behind it would be on the front.
Joe
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Aug 14, 2010 15:36:48 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 14, 2010 15:36:48 GMT -6
Bob We aren't describing a lever, sprocket, or cog. We are talking about a player. We stress our tacklers to be athletic, having any part of the body tense(as cocking would require) makes for an unnatural move. In a perfect world we would always shoot the hands between the Bic's arms. If the angle of the tackle isn't quite right (72.5 degrees as opposed to 83.5 degrees) then one hand would be shot outside the Bic's arms. Remember a player is a living breathing thing not an inanimate object. If the tackler is coming from the front, he shoots his hands & grabs clothe. This is approximately where the snaps on the shoulder pads are. He then pulls down as thrusts his hips. If he were tackling from behind it would be on the front. Joe OK, so by "between the BC's arms" you mean between each arm and the BC's side. I was thinking you meant between their arms & forearms in front of them, which would produce the very problem I wanted to head off. It seems the difference between "shooting" and "old-school wrapping" is that with shooting, your arms don't start wide and adduct (pinch in like claws), but come straight in like a fork lift that's just slightly wider than what it's coming in on. My intuition is that learning the transition between running with arms swinging and making the tackle would be easier without the shooting. Tacklers breaking down, especially if they're slow, are going to want to have their arms loose & wide for balance to help adjust for a late move left or right. Whether you call it cocking or not, getting their arms into position to thrust forward the shooting way is an extra step to teach & learn. I think I'd save it for the advanced class.
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Aug 14, 2010 16:36:18 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 14, 2010 16:36:18 GMT -6
Bob
Wrapping the arms often makes the tackler look like a diver getting ready to dive into a pool. It is an nonathletic move. Shooting the hands is much easier, plus we reinforce contact first then the hands. 3 consecutive years at the AYF nationals against top competition our defense has yield 46 points in 9 games. I am not talking theory here, rather something I know works. There is a reason most major colleges teach this way to tackle. It's safer, more securing, & leads to bigger hits.
Sorry if I seem condescending to you, that is not my intent. It's just frustrating trying to explain what to me is a very simple action. To be honest the younger you start a player tackling this way the better. Younger boys have no bad habits to break. Fundamentals make great football teams. I can talk scheme with anyone any time. Truth is, if your team blocks & tackles better then you win.
Joe
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Aug 14, 2010 19:13:07 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 14, 2010 19:13:07 GMT -6
Wrapping the arms often makes the tackler look like a diver getting ready to dive into a pool. It is an nonathletic move. Heck, all of football looks really goofy if you forget that it's a game! You remind me of players I've had who didn't want to do certain things because they seemed icky in some way. But come to think of it, it's a stance often used in wrestling. If it's used in wrestling & diving, how can it be nonathletic? I certainly respect performance at such high levels of competition, but I'd rather hear from coaches' experience at the levels I'm likelier to see. I rather doubt that most of your players in AYF tourneys got that good in a single season. I'm likeliest to coach players who, while they may be no younger than yours, either have never played before or have been taught any of various tackling techniques by various coaches. I'm sure that once you get good at it, that 2 hand thrust must be powerful & effective. My fear is that it will be an inferior technique for those who haven't yet mastered it, compared to others they might pick up quicker. If I ever had charge of a team or defensive squad for what I knew to be a period of 2 years or more, then I would look at teaching fundamental techniques that I thought could take more than 1 year to get good at -- both the learning and my teaching of them. In the meantime I'm more interested in coaching kids up from zero to mediocre. Arms have always been capable of these movements, so I have to ask why for so long coaches have taught a different technique from the above. There must have been something they liked about having the hands low & wide before the hit. Everyone has a tackling technique they claim to be safer, easier to learn, and produce bigger, ball-jarring hits. And they all have evidence on their side. Paradoxically, this means I'm likeliest to be persuaded, not by evidence (because there's too much of that, and nobody -- certainly not me -- would try to do an experimental comparison), but by theory. In this case I need an explanation why "shooting" doesn't require more time to teach when it seems to require an extra step of getting the arms pre-loaded (if you don't believe they're cocked), and why the poorer athlete wouldn't benefit (in being less likely to wiff completely on the tackle) from having his arms low and more or less extended as he approaches. Then secondarily I'd want some reason to think that, given the same amount of coach's att'n, players having their upper extremities loaded would not tempt them more than the other way to push off contact as they approach. Don't worry, I get this way all the time. And as it is, I have to go with the flow, mostly. Thursday I assisted in a padless blocking practice + assessment station using hand shields. The first coach I was sent with, who has been with the organiz'n before, was having them use hands blocking. He was, however, soon backed up by another who has also been with the organiz'n who taught shoulder blocking -- much to my relief because that's my preference and what I know better anyway. The first coach gave way, assuming the second knew what we were supposed to be doing, and not being averse to shoulder blocking anyway, and that was fine with me. But let me ask one more thing to clarify, because there's still something about the motion I might be visualizing wrong. Is the shooting of the hands more like a jab (which is how I'm visualizing violently shooting the hands thru), or an uppercut (swinging them from low)? If it's a swing/uppercut rather than a jab/extension, then sorry about my confusion -- there really is no cocking/loading, and the difference between shooting & wrapping is actually very little.
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Aug 14, 2010 21:58:04 GMT -6
Post by mhcoach on Aug 14, 2010 21:58:04 GMT -6
Bob
PascoPaul is my offensive line coach. He is also a very accomplished coach. Last season he coached his 10 year sons team as well as ours. The team was made up of players greener then new hay. Most boys were first year players, Paul was the DC. he used the Miami circuit everyday. What he experienced was that it was the fastest way to teach novice players good form.
The technique is more a jab then an uppercut, yet neither seem exactly right. The difference between a TD or not is razor thin. I think you are over complicating a very simple thing. If you want some good advice, go watch some successfully teams practice. Watch the tempo & organization. I'm sure Anthony would let you watch Xaverian HS practice. Most good HS' will let youth coaches watch anytime. Steal from them what works. Don't try to do some made up things with the excuse that your kids can't do it. Truth is you can't coach it. Any age, they will do what you coach. I didn't become successful ever inventing a play or technique. I have stolen from better minds then mine. This isn't meant as a knock, rather as helpful advice. If you ask any coach who wins he will tell you it's the players who win. He will also tell you that he didn't invent anything rather he stole it.
I am sure you respect DC & Doug, both of them stress great fundamentals. Learn from this, don't try to invent things, or say a technique won't work because of the age & experience of your players. Instead, learn to reach good fundamentals. Don't take what I say is gospel, nor don't think what I say is beyond your reach.
In youth football it is important not to exclude good fundamentals with an excuse. Rather make your fundamentals as sound as possible. If you are unsure then learn.
Joe
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Aug 14, 2010 23:58:56 GMT -6
Post by utchuckd on Aug 14, 2010 23:58:56 GMT -6
One of the reasons I like shooting the hands over wrapping up is that shooting the hands fits overall more into the whole body technique we're looking for. We teach cocking the hands, lowering the hips and exploding into the ball carrier. Everything is going in the same direction, from the same direction. Wrapping up leads to arm tackling or leading with the head down for me.
Note- a drill we've started doing this year is we have 3 lines with a parent holding a hand shield at the front of each line. Player is in a good athletic stance 2 steps from the shield, on go player takes his steps, keeps good form (low hips, hands cocked) and explodes into the shield firing the hips and shooting the hands and driving the feet. We get a ton of good form reps in a little over 5 minutes. We have a coach watching each line and coaching up each rep.
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Aug 15, 2010 9:59:44 GMT -6
Post by coachdoug on Aug 15, 2010 9:59:44 GMT -6
Joe: In fairness to Bob, I don't think he was saying that the kids wouldn't be able to pick it up as much as he didn't think he could teach it. I'm sure Bob will correct me if I read his comments wrong.
Bob: Allow me to answer/comment on a couple of your questions. You asked how the pre-tackle stance of a tackler preparing to wrap (i.e. with arms low and out wide) could be unathletic if wrestlers and divers use the same stance. I don't believe Joe was talking about the stance as much as the act of wrapping being unathletic (I'm sure Joe will correct me if I have misinterpreted his comments). The act of wrapping (especially if you're asking the kids to wrap low) would almost mimick doing chest flys from a declined bench. The muscles required to fire for the move do not have advantageous leverage over the limbs they are trying to move. Furthermore, the range of motion is not particularly natural. I believe those are the reasons Joe characterized wrapping as an unathletic move. Compare that with shooting the hands, which more closely resembles something between a regular (i.e. neither declined nor inclined) bench press and a biceps curl. The involved mucles have much greater leverage and the range of motion is much more natural.
You also asked what are the advantages of shooting and how can it be taught as easily as wrapping. The main advantage, and I think the main thing you're missing, is that it greatly reduces the tendency to arm tackle. As you pointed out, if a weaker player has his arms out wide, he may be less likely to whiff completely, and at least get a hand on the ball carrier (which is only marginally better than whiffing completely). The problem with this, is that a lot of weaker players will become satisfied with this level of "success" and never achieve anything more than arm tackling. Even the better players will have a tendency to rely on the arms since they're already out there. When you teach shooting the hands, you need to emphasize that the hands don't go until contact has been made (and by using the Miami circuit, or some other sort of fit & freeze progression, daily, you should ensure proper form on contact), so the opportunity for arm tackling is close to non-existant. By drilling it daily and stressing proper form (head placement, not shooting hands until contact, then exploding the hips and pulling down on the BC's back) should result in vastly superior form and results than a technique that allows the players to easily fall into the habit of arm tackling.
Furthermore, I'm not sure how it is anymore difficult to teach or requires an extra step. You have to teach the players to do something with their hands anyway - you're just teaching them something different and more natural than spreading their wings out wide. Also, even though most coaches tell their players to wrap low - what do most players do? They try to wrap around the chest or shoulders, which they typically can't do. Unless the tackler gets his butt under himself (i.e. gets low by bending his knees rather than bending at the waist - which, despite all our coachly preaching, happens all the time), he now ends up attempting to wrap above his shoulders, where he has even less leverage, and his arms are almost certainly not long enough to fully wrap - leading to more broken tackles. On top of all that, if the tackler comes in high and tries to wrap high, now his hands are going to be trying to grab whatever they can around the BC's head, leading to facemask calls.
I hope that helps.
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Aug 15, 2010 10:04:11 GMT -6
Post by coachd5085 on Aug 15, 2010 10:04:11 GMT -6
Bob--and others...I think the major benefit from the technique being discussed is that when tackling with anterior shoulder plate ("Chest tackle/shooting hands") the shoulder is in a more stable position, and the knees must be bent to strike. All are aligned in an foreward/upward driving motion. When teaching to "Wrap up" or pincher method, the shoulder is in a more anatomically unstable position, force vector of the pincher arm movement does not align with the forward/upward movement of the body, AND a player can "correctly" tackle with the top of the shoulder and "wrap up" without bending the knee but rather by bending the waist.
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Help!!!
Aug 15, 2010 14:35:28 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 15, 2010 14:35:28 GMT -6
Joe: In fairness to Bob, I don't think he was saying that the kids wouldn't be able to pick it up as much as he didn't think he could teach it. I'm sure Bob will correct me if I read his comments wrong. Combination of that and the kids' ability to learn it quickly. I wouldn't encourage wrapping low unless they were also tackling low. I figure their hands to finish about even with their shoulders in height above ground. What I meant was that as they're running, their hands will be swinging low, and then as they break down, their hands will be low & wide, and then after they hit, they will adduct their arms to wrap, like closing claws. I want to teach two basic types of tackle so kids will be able to adapt them to their circumstances. One, which is approximately the type we're describing, will be high, and the other low. The high type is preferable if you can get it: head past the BC's far armpit, far shoulder into just below the sternum (about solar plexus), trailing (far) arm's elbow hooking around the near side, then swing in the near hip and wrap with the near arm; the body action is similar to that in blocking, and overall tries to get under & lift. The low type is if the BC is too quick or too big to stop with the high tackle: near shoulder into near hip, head behind near hip, near arm across waist, then wrap with far (trailing) arm, sliding grip down onto legs if necessary; the overall body action is a downward one. Uh-oh...now I gotta look up some gymnastics to see what those are! Huh. A bench press involves extension at elbows & shoulder, while a curl involves flexion of the elbows. Maybe the problem is the words. Today we had helmet fittings, and I mentioned to a couple of coaches this tackling discussion and asked them what they thought "shooting" the arms or hands meant. They'd been used to that term as referring to a move one uses to ward off a blocker's hands, something between an uppercut and a forearm shiver -- holding one or both forearms across in front while raising the arm, like a wiping upward move; they agreed with me that that couldn't possibly be used at a tackle, because you couldn't get your hands behind the ballcarrier that way. So it seems everyone has different pictures of the phrase "shooting the hands" or arms. It's also for balance, so he can better move left or right, so he might get more than a hand on the opponent. I don't know about everyone, but for me it seems to just go along with the breaking down. You bend at the knees & hips both forward & slightly outward, and with that goes an abduction at the shoulders with a slight supination of the forearms, like you're going to catch a big boulder rolled at you. True. But there are players who are not weaker in the sense of slower & less skillful, but weaker willed. They use their arms to prevent upper body contact, as if they're protecting themselves, warding off a block, rather than wrapping. And it's not as if they're smaller than their opponents, sometimes they're bigger or have them 2-on-1! Maybe I shouldn't be concerned about them, figuring they're too chicken to play anyway, but I think they can be coached up, and I see too many of them to ignore. I'm afraid that a technique that has their hands in close as they approach would only encourage that tendency. It's like the argument about hands vs. shoulder blocking. I admit that it's possible to get just as much leverage underneath with hands as with a shoulder, but in practice I'm afraid use of hands will tend to cause the blocker to come in higher and make contact with feet farther away than otherwise. You're telling me about a need there. I was hoping not to increase our needs! I think regardless of what method we use, we'll tell them that and try to correct any contrary tendency. Are you saying it's easier that way to correct the tendency I'm most concerned with, i.e. pushing off? I take it you mean "at every session". We only practice 2-3 times a week. I disagree. I think players being taught to break down approaching the tackle will, without even being told to, have their hands down & wide just to keep their balance once we start live drills with the opponent trying to evade. It's hard to judge from drills where you start close, because that's too much like wrestling, where you see elbows close and hands up and in front. I certainly believe in teaching a fit, but you can't draw too many conclusions about players' form from fit & freeze or on-your-knees drills. That's news to me. Some, yeah, thanks.
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Help!!!
Aug 15, 2010 14:57:55 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Aug 15, 2010 14:57:55 GMT -6
Bob--and others...I think the major benefit from the technique being discussed is that when tackling with anterior shoulder plate ("Chest tackle/shooting hands") the shoulder is in a more stable position, and the knees must be bent to strike. All are aligned in an foreward/upward driving motion. When teaching to "Wrap up" or pincher method, the shoulder is in a more anatomically unstable position, force vector of the pincher arm movement does not align with the forward/upward movement of the body, AND a player can "correctly" tackle with the top of the shoulder and "wrap up" without bending the knee but rather by bending the waist. So is shooting the hands to go with chest tackling, and not with using the side and/or top of the shoulder? That would explain certain things. A week ago a recent HS player, now into coaching, explained to me that you can deliver your biggest hits chest tackling, because you have the full forward force of both knees & hips behind it. That's true, and chest tackling would be really great if we had the skeleton of a quadruped or bird. If our necks bent back from the rest of our backbone to the degree you see in those animals, it'd be easy. However, your breastbone is approximately parallel to your spine, so hitting with the front of it can transmit only a little of that vector. Unfortunately the only way to efficiently transmit that force using a human body is to have some surface that hits in that direction. Our necks are too fragile to sustain use of the top of the head as a battering ram, so a somewhat angled hit with an edge of the shoulder is chosen as a compromise between protection of the head and neck and transmission of force. I'm sure the chest tackle works, but I'm not sold on either its ability to deliver force or how easy it is to get the head out of the way with it.
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