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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 26, 2010 14:44:43 GMT -6
Philosophical question:
What do you think of punishing the team for one person's mistake? e.g. one person loafs a drill, the whole team does up-downs. One person is late, whole team does pushups.
Now, initially, the first though is, "that's unfair" which is true. However, is there some merit to this approach despite being unfair?
Consider this:
This procedure teaches players that their actions affect others. In reality your screw up affects the team. In a game, you jump offsides, the whole team gets punished. They don't just move the offender back 5 yards while the rest of the team runs the play from the line of scrimmage.
It also teaches them how life works. You slack off in your job, the whole company suffers. Fair? No. Realistic? Yes. You cheat on your wife, your family suffers. Fair? No. Realistic? Yes (just ask Tiger). Your actions affect others and vice versa. We don't live in a vacuum.
Not saying that I am for or against this procedure, but am thinking out loud.
What do you think?
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2010 14:52:12 GMT -6
well in the USMC there were many forms of punishment in OCS or RBT and one was the team was pushed for its individual members. now after awhile you get tried of getting punished for screw ups so the recruit class gives the screw up a blanket party. it is usually a sound motivator for the screw ups.
I know a basketball coach who makes players run win sprints during practice for offenders who are lazy or screw ups.
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Post by julien on Mar 26, 2010 14:57:16 GMT -6
We do that during first weeks of practice each year.
Rookies usually make the "mistakes" once or twice... Then older players take care of the situation ;D
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Post by gschwender on Mar 26, 2010 14:59:37 GMT -6
might have to watch for retributions from peers though...a big thing with the whole hazing and what not in hs sports...be carefull
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Post by Defcord on Mar 26, 2010 15:06:00 GMT -6
I think it depends on the infraction.
If it is directly sports related then I like to have the team work to correct it together. I have only been a head coach in baseball so for example if a kid doesn't back up during a play then we keep track of that during the game. At the end of the game we total those kinds of correctable actions and the whole team runs poles for them. We do not run for physical errors at all. We will not get on a kid for booting a ball, but we will definitely get on them for not backing up or not hustling to beat out a pitch.
However, if a kid is late to practice we don't feel it is fair to have the whole team run for this. We individually address the situation. Same thing with grades.
When I am a head coach in football I will probably institute a similar program. I think the whole team's success is linked to penalties and lack of hustle and various other things.
I am intersted to see where this discussion goes because this is something I have wondered about as a coach.
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Post by kylem56 on Mar 26, 2010 15:11:32 GMT -6
Like indianacoach said, it probaly doesn't apply to every sport but for football, I absolutely agree with it. Some situations it is more applicable during others. During O-Line drills, if someone jumps offsides, everyone is punished. If someone loafs, everyone is punished. If emphasize it early during pre-season camp, it usually takes care of itself. It is important to be consistent with it but also be smart about it. If Johnny playing right guard and he just cannot reach block Joey who is playing defensive tackle because Joey is a better player, I am not going to raise hell and punish everyone.
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Post by oguru on Mar 26, 2010 15:21:27 GMT -6
I think of it this way. If someone commits a penalty during a game. What happens?? Everyone on the team is punished by the penalty. Therefore I see what your doing as fair. One thing you have to watch out for and must make crystal clear is that NO ONE is hazed or picked on because they made everyone run, or do up downs or whatever the punishment. I did this when I coach 6th graders in youth football. The maority of the parents loved it. One parent hated it,and asked why I did it,and I said if one kid commits a penalty the entire team is punished. THERE ARE NO STARS on this team. The dad went off pouting.
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Post by brophy on Mar 26, 2010 15:24:28 GMT -6
might have to watch for retributions from peers though isn't the whole point, though? (not necessarily physical)
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Post by phantom on Mar 26, 2010 15:32:15 GMT -6
might have to watch for retributions from peers though isn't the whole point, though? (not necessarily physical) But the physical part is what worries me. I'm not against using peer pressure- I think it's the greatest motivator that there is- but you do have to be careful.
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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 26, 2010 15:32:33 GMT -6
Like indianacoach said, it probaly doesn't apply to every sport but for football, I absolutely agree with it. Some situations it is more applicable during others. During O-Line drills, if someone jumps offsides, everyone is punished. If someone loafs, everyone is punished. If emphasize it early during pre-season camp, it usually takes care of itself. It is important to be consistent with it but also be smart about it. If Johnny playing right guard and he just cannot reach block Joey who is playing defensive tackle because Joey is a better player, I am not going to raise hell and punish everyone. That's what I am wondering about. Things such as lack of effort, mental errors, tardiness... things that are totally controllable. What got me thinking about this was yesterday in the teachers' lounge, I heard some parents griping about their kids' new coach. One of the gripes was, "the whole team is getting punished for one person's mistake. That's not fair." It may not be fair, but will the player also learn about accountability to the TEAM? Does the end justify the means? I don't know. That's why I put it on here
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Post by indian1 on Mar 26, 2010 15:37:12 GMT -6
if one guy f##ks up the whole team can lose right? well then...
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Post by M4 on Mar 26, 2010 15:55:22 GMT -6
when I was in college 2 guys tried to haze a rookie, as punishment our coach made those 2 guys stand in the middle of the field and watch all the other guys on the team run 100's for probably 25 minutes
those 2 guys felt pretty bad when they had to watch 75 guys run sprints because they acted like idiots... pretty sure that got delt with in the dressing room after practice that day
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Post by tiger46 on Mar 26, 2010 17:16:39 GMT -6
It's a bad idea. That form of punishment was largely practiced by the military. And, the military has largely gotten away from that type of punishment. IIRC, officially, the military no longer uses that sort of punishment ever. But, what the big brass doesn't know.... But, even then, it's used sparingly. I'm not a HS coach. I do use group consequences but, never group punishment. I limit how it it used. I make it specific to the situation as much as I can. But, I try to never punish the group for the mistake of one. You can get a better, quicker result by ostracizing the one from the group.
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Post by robinhood on Mar 26, 2010 18:37:52 GMT -6
We never punish anyone. We make corrections. We instill discipline. We improve teamwork. We get the players to bond.
Punish is a work we avoid like the plague.
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Post by emptybackfield on Mar 26, 2010 18:54:16 GMT -6
We never punish anyone. We make corrections. We instill discipline. We improve teamwork. We get the players to bond. Punish is a work we avoid like the plague. Can you elaborate on this please? Let's say a kid shows up to practice late once, how do you handle it? Twice? Three times? I understand you're trying to build partnership, not compliance; but how do you correct the things that need to be corrected?
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Post by Defcord on Mar 26, 2010 19:00:43 GMT -6
We never punish anyone. We make corrections. We instill discipline. We improve teamwork. We get the players to bond. Punish is a work we avoid like the plague. I think you are splitting hairs on terminology. Some say punish some say corrections some say discipline. It's all the same just packaged with different verbage.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 26, 2010 19:04:19 GMT -6
empty-- i think robinhood was talking about the WORD choice. For example, they might not "punish" a kid for being late. The correct the kid and then have various methods of instilling discipline...running, updowns, etc.
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Post by emptybackfield on Mar 26, 2010 19:15:44 GMT -6
empty-- i think robinhood was talking about the WORD choice. For example, they might not "punish" a kid for being late. The correct the kid and then have various methods of instilling discipline...running, updowns, etc. Gotcha, "work" instead of "word" threw me off a little bit.
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Post by phantom on Mar 26, 2010 19:21:28 GMT -6
I'm not criticizing because everybody has to do things their own way. I hate euphemisms, though, because the kids understand exactly what they mean. I always think of this:
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Post by coachmoore42 on Mar 26, 2010 20:34:45 GMT -6
We try to stay away from the "entire team" punishment for one kid's actions. The only major exception is in-practice penalties. The offending unit does an up-down for every yard of the penalty (5 for a false start, etc.) Everybody obviously would get the penalty yards, so the entire team gets the punishment.
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ramsoc
Junior Member
Posts: 431
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Post by ramsoc on Mar 26, 2010 23:06:16 GMT -6
However, if a kid is late to practice we don't feel it is fair to have the whole team run for this. We individually address the situation. We think just the opposite. Cause for us, the player is usually late cause they're sucking face with their girlfriend. So we punish the team, cause one of them probably saw him and didn't get his ass to practice.
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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 27, 2010 7:21:48 GMT -6
We try to stay away from the "entire team" punishment for one kid's actions. . Why? I'm just wanting to probe this a little further.
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Post by blb on Mar 27, 2010 7:42:47 GMT -6
We try to stay away from the "entire team" punishment for one kid's actions. . Why? I'm just wanting to probe this a little further. First of all, and most importantly, it's simply not fair. Secondly it could lead to repercussions (locker room retribution,"vigilante justice") you don't want to deal with, like hazing or bullying. Only time we do anything like this is during "Perfect Play" drill or sprints since it simulates team effort-execution in a game where they are all reliant on one another for success.
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Post by td4tc on Mar 27, 2010 8:40:16 GMT -6
We try to stay away from the "entire team" punishment for one kid's actions. The only major exception is in-practice penalties. The offending unit does an up-down for every yard of the penalty (5 for a false start, etc.) Everybody obviously would get the penalty yards, so the entire team gets the punishment. we used to do this and always pi$$ed me off how much valuable time we waste doing up downs cause one kid goes offside..i"m there to teach not watch them do up downs.now we bring in the back up when a kid gets a penalty or misses an assignment and it seems to work..
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Post by chadp56 on Mar 27, 2010 8:51:57 GMT -6
I don't agree with punishing the whole team because one kid is late. For kids that are late or forget equipment, they get some running of their own. The only time we do whole team punishment is when a bunch of guys are messing up. If we start seeing a bunch of jumping off sides or things that make us see that guys aren't focused, then we will do some up downs. This only happens a handful of times a year. When it comes to jumping off-sides, I don't think the officials make you do up-downs. If it is a conditioning drill, we just back it up 5 or don't count it. This year we are going to try and keep track of who "wins" each play and do some up-downs if you are the losing unit at the end of team. A false start then will be a loss, and would result in up-downs.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 27, 2010 9:05:48 GMT -6
So if one guy jumps off sides, what do you do with that kid? Make him do up downs and let everyone watch?
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Post by touchdowng on Mar 27, 2010 15:56:10 GMT -6
The ONLY mistake we take out on everyone is a false start or an encroachment. We just yell out "Feet!"
EVERYONE. And I mean everyone will start buzzing their feet and we'll blow the whistle 5 times. Each time they perform an up/down.
We go back to what we were doing. No names, not finger pointing, no corrections. Just go back to work and make sure you watch the ball or know the proper snap count.
As far as everything else - we punish the offender with the usual. I think the only thing I've had to punish a kid on the field for in the last 10 years was being late.
If we have a screw off at practice - we send them home. They can come back once mom or dad have scheduled a meeting. This doesn't have to happen very often once you do it. Word spreads quickly.
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coachood
Sophomore Member
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. -Vince Lombardi
Posts: 173
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Post by coachood on Mar 27, 2010 16:06:00 GMT -6
Its a team sport. The sooner every individual realizes that their mistake will cost every one, the better off we'll be. Furthermore neither football nor life is fair. Sometimes you'll play against some one who is physically far superior to you. Refs will make bad or even terrible calls against you. Other teams will lie cheat and steal to get a win. None of this excuses anyone from their responsibility, and none of it cannot be overcome with enough work.
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Post by fingerz42 on Mar 27, 2010 16:08:40 GMT -6
One person can punish the whole team. Within the game, if ONE person jumps offside who is punished? Just him? No. The whole team. So punish the whole team for mistakes. Remember, when you punish one person, the team will remind that person the next time and that person will succomb to peer pressure. Just make sure that the team peer pressure is appropriate and the team isn't calling that person names or pushing him out of the "circle."
The important concept is that this game relies so much more on TEAM than any other. If one fails, it hurts us all.
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Post by chadp56 on Mar 27, 2010 17:12:34 GMT -6
So if one guy jumps off sides, what do you do with that kid? Make him do up downs and let everyone watch? Tell him to pay attention to the dang snap count and run the play again. I guess if we had someone that did it a bunch a times I might send him on a lap. If people are doing it left and right, up-downs might be in order. I just don't think doing up-downs everytime a kid makes a mistake is a good use of practice time. What happens when you make a mistake? I've just learned not to be overly punitive for what I would call mistakes. I don't consider being late to practice a mistake!
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