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Post by Yash on Jul 27, 2009 16:22:02 GMT -6
We are going to do the 300 yard shuttle for a conditioning test at the beginning of practice this year. What are good times that they would have to make it in for high school? we are going to have them do 2 shuttles. I am thinking for skill guys 56 seconds for the first and 1 minute for the second and then for the fat guys 1:04 for the first one 1:10 for the second. How does that sound?
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binny
Sophomore Member
Posts: 111
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Post by binny on Jul 27, 2009 19:31:31 GMT -6
speaking as a fat guy, I think you are a little ambitious on your times... I beleive in college I had a 70 seconds to run one. I'm not sure I could have run two even within 15 minutes of each other. I think for HS, you might be asking a little much to run two.
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Post by Yash on Jul 27, 2009 20:22:13 GMT -6
Well, we want to run 2. The college runs 3, we only want to do 2 but the point of it is to emphasize conditioning so we really want to do 2.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 27, 2009 21:20:10 GMT -6
Is this like a ladder?
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 27, 2009 21:28:59 GMT -6
I'd make my times closer to 65 or so for skill positions and 75 to 80 for big guys, unless your boys are in phenomenal shape as a team. Also, be sure to give them enough time in between, if they're really putting themselves into it, they're going to need some time to recover.
What's the consequence of not 'making it'?
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Post by coachorr on Jul 27, 2009 21:32:33 GMT -6
If it is a ladder of 6 50's up and back, We always do two one after the other and everyone has to get 60 sec.
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Post by otowncoach on Jul 27, 2009 22:07:35 GMT -6
When I was at a D-1 school we used the 300-yd shuttle for the conditioning test at the beginning on the season. Here is how we did it:
60-yards x 5 (up-back-up-back-up)
Times were figured by taking their 40 time and multiplying it by 10. So if you ran a 4.9 your time was 49.
You ran two shuttles and the AVERAGE had to be your goal. Some guys would bust out a fast one and be well below their time, but then be gassed for the second one. We ran them back to back, but I can't remember exactly how much time was between them - 5-10 mins probably. If they didn't make it, they had to come in on Sunday mornings at 6 AM until they met their time.
You might want to take a couple of your good athletes and have them test it for you (and then excuse them from doing it again!) Have them run two shuttles and see where their times are - that will give you a gauge.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 27, 2009 22:38:27 GMT -6
Why do this?
What's the point?
When are you EVER going to do this on a football field?
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Post by Yash on Jul 28, 2009 7:30:54 GMT -6
Why do this? What's the point? When are you EVER going to do this on a football field? Its a conditioning test. Its the same as benching a weight a certain amount of times, you never do that in a game. We told the guys that we were going to do this and that they needed to be in shape coming into camp. Here is the test we are doing to find out if they are in shape. |
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Post by culverqb12 on Jul 28, 2009 8:31:58 GMT -6
56 seconds is not too ambitious. I think it is a good solid number. We too run the 300 shuttle, and our skill times are 58 for both, (we don't change the number), and 1:06 for our linemen.
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Post by Yash on Jul 28, 2009 9:06:15 GMT -6
And to answer why do this. I really feel like the 300 yard shuttle is a gut race. It tests your guts and shows what kind of competitor you are. Its like the 400 in track. It shows how hard you can push yourself. Its not something we will do every day, just a test at the beginning of the sumer to see whose been working out in the off season.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 28, 2009 9:48:54 GMT -6
When I was younger, I used to run the 300 yard shuttle with the players. The second one is as much like playing in a 4th quarter as anything.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 28, 2009 10:28:25 GMT -6
As an OL and DL I can tell you, this test has nothing to do with the fitness needed to play those positions. Or to measure my "guts".
If you can't tell who on your team has "guts" without making them run a meaningless conditioning test, this isn't going to help you either.
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binny
Sophomore Member
Posts: 111
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Post by binny on Jul 28, 2009 10:48:53 GMT -6
In my previous answer I should have mentioned that I was thinking it was a 25 yard distance. This slows the time down considerably. I agree that it is a very real toughness test.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 28, 2009 11:01:26 GMT -6
I agree with larrymoe. 300-yard shuttle is a poor "conditioning" test for football. Average football play lasts 3-5 seconds and is an anaerobic event. Why would you expect football players to train for an activity that lasts over a minute and is aerobic? Being in shape to run a 300-yard shuttle has very little, if anything, to do with being in football shape.
In fact, many really smart S&C coaches would argue that you are actually making football players slower and weaker by doing these types of conditioning drills that have nothing to do with the energy systems used in football.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 28, 2009 11:10:17 GMT -6
I agree that it is a very real toughness test. If you want to see how "tough" your players are, line 'em up shoulder-to-shoulder and kick 'em in the nuts. If you are going to test your players, it should be in events that replicate the energy systems used in football. Old story I heard at a clinic about Earl Campbell...when he got to training camp, his coach (Bum Phillips) made the players do a 1-mile run for time. Players who couldn't make a certain time were fined. Campbell NEVER made it...every year he came into camp, he got fined because he couldn't make the mile run in the time Phillips set for him. Did the inability to run a mile in a certain time make Campbell a bad football player? Was Campbell not "tough" because of that? The Pro Football Hall of Fame certainly didn't think so.... |
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Post by rpetrie on Jul 28, 2009 11:25:08 GMT -6
I personally find conditioning tests unuseful for HS. It's an expectation to have kids come to camp in reasonable shape...its our job to get then into game/sport specific condition. Fast tempo in practice, game specific conditioning drills & high intensity usually equates to game shape. The only long duration conditioning we do is in-season on Mondays we run what we call "trains." Team runs single file sideline-to-sideline, starting on the goal-line & progressing every 10 yeards (goaline, 10, 20, 30, etc.) all the way to the opposite goaline. The kicker is they jog all parts of the lines except between the hash marks which MUST be an all-out sprint. It works on developing explosion as fatigue begins to accumulate...and is a great team builder as guys who finish go back and encourage/run with the big boys who might have trouble.
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Post by otowncoach on Jul 28, 2009 11:34:25 GMT -6
I see the shuttle run as motivation for the players to come to workouts all summer. If they are there, they will be in shape and the shuttle won't be a problem for them. If they don't come, they won't be able to make the time.
When I was in HS we ran 40 40's the first day of practice.
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Post by silverback05 on Jul 28, 2009 18:16:32 GMT -6
I'm not a big fan of the 300 for a conditioning test, but I do agree that it does show a coach who is going to give up, who is going to lead, who is going to complain...etc. However, if this is why you are doing it, do it ONLY for that.
The thing to remember is that you can not possibly expect the players to do well in a test that they are not prepared for. Some will do well because they have a good base level of conditioning, are lean, fast, etc. However, if you have been running short sprints or anything of an anaerobic nature, you cannot punish players for not doing well in a test that is completely aerobic...they are two COMPLETELY different energy systems.
You can tell the players what times you expect them to achieve so that they THINK there is punishment coming if they don't make it and also so they don't "pace" themselves, but if they don't achieve those times, do not punish them.
Just a thought.
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Post by Yash on Jul 28, 2009 20:34:48 GMT -6
I understand the argument of its not football related you shouldn't do it and that. That is a valid argument to me, but we are going to do it. The head coach wanted to do the Pacer test where you run back and forth to a beep the gym class test. I talked him into a 300 yard shuttle instead. Bottom line, we are going to do it.
When I was coaching in alaska during my time in the military the head coach had a ton of conditioning that was never football related. The kids probably ran 2 or 3 miles the first few days of practice during conditioning. It had very little to do with football but we had the most well conditioned team and the strongest minded team I've seen. Those kids played through adversity without blinking. They didn't complain and they played with injuries. Mentally and physically one of the tougher teams I've been with and we only had 16 kids on varsity, 12 starters, one guy didn't go both ways.
What does this all mean? Yes we should know who has guts going into camp, but this gives kids a chance to show that they aren't going to quit. Maybe its just a conditioning test. Its 15 minutes out of the first day of practice that we can't have pads on.
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Post by dbeard42 on Jul 28, 2009 21:24:45 GMT -6
i understand the logic of the 300 yard shuttle but i think the problem that arises many times in conditioning not just with footbasll athletes is that we get away from sport specfic exercises for instance my players are never going to run a mile at a certain pace if their playing football the test irrevelant will it show thier in shape yes but at the same time its an aerobic conditioning test and not an anaerobic conditoning test which is what football is quick bursts i believe the best conditioning test is running 14 40's and the player s get 4 tenths of a second with in their first time to make it and after each one they jog back to the start line much like jogging back to the huddle it then therefore trains the athlete for a game like condition
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Post by ogre5530 on Jul 29, 2009 7:05:28 GMT -6
You can see how "tough" your players are very easily by doing multiple 10's 20's 30's and 40's instead of running the 300 yard shuttle...It's game specific and you can still weed out who isn't in shape. The strong willed kids who are conditioned will still be busting butt on those last couple sprints!
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Post by Yash on Jul 29, 2009 7:34:10 GMT -6
You can see how "tough" your players are very easily by doing multiple 10's 20's 30's and 40's instead of running the 300 yard shuttle...It's game specific and you can still weed out who isn't in shape. The strong willed kids who are conditioned will still be busting butt on those last couple sprints! I agree, you can, but 2 300 yard shuttles isn't a lot to ask for or wasting a lot of time either. Its not something we are going to start every practice with or anything, its a test one time, at the end of the first day of practice. |
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Post by dbeard42 on Jul 29, 2009 17:11:40 GMT -6
coach how do you feel about running them before practice and having the players go throguh oractice tired so they can better focus and go hard and practice tired much like they would in the 3rd and 4th quarters my only concern with running them after practice is some players may half ass practice and drills saving themselves for the 300 test just wondering their are always different ways to skin a cat
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Post by buck42 on Jul 9, 2015 7:52:37 GMT -6
How would the times differ if instead of running six 25s I run them for three 50s?
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Post by 19holmes on Jul 9, 2015 8:46:01 GMT -6
Track athletes run longer than their event at the beginning of the season to build up their base endurance then get specific conditioning for their event as the season progresses.
100 runners run 300's
200 runners run 400's
400 runners run 600-800's
So I think it's perfectly acceptable to run 300yd shuttles at the beginning of the season to build a base conditioning that gets more football specific as the season approaches
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Post by realdawg on Jul 9, 2015 10:31:58 GMT -6
We did this before. I think we did 60 for line. 56 for mid size kids and 52 for skill. Then added two seconds each additional run. I can't remember if that's the exact numbers but they r close.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 9, 2015 10:42:14 GMT -6
Track athletes run longer than their event at the beginning of the season to build up their base endurance then get specific conditioning for their event as the season progresses. 100 runners run 300's 200 runners run 400's 400 runners run 600-800's So I think it's perfectly acceptable to run 300yd shuttles at the beginning of the season to build a base conditioning that gets more football specific as the season approaches Coach--are you talking training or testing. That is the point. I realize this is a 6 year old thread, but my issue with the 300 yd shuttle as a test is that I think it is "biased". Same with running 120's/100's. Much easier for the skill guys (in my opinion) than the bigger guys. As far as using a test to see "who worked out during the summer and who didn't" I think it is important to recognize that football is administered (for lack of a better word) differently in different places. At the schools I have worked with in Louisiana, it is easy to see who worked out and who didnt. You look at the role sheet. I realize that is not the case in other places. |
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Post by sweep26 on Jul 9, 2015 11:05:34 GMT -6
When I was at a D-1 school we used the 300-yd shuttle for the conditioning test at the beginning on the season. Here is how we did it: 60-yards x 5 (up-back-up-back-up) Times were figured by taking their 40 time and multiplying it by 10. So if you ran a 4.9 your time was 49. You ran two shuttles and the AVERAGE had to be your goal. Some guys would bust out a fast one and be well below their time, but then be gassed for the second one. We ran them back to back, but I can't remember exactly how much time was between them - 5-10 mins probably. If they didn't make it, they had to come in on Sunday mornings at 6 AM until they met their time. You might want to take a couple of your good athletes and have them test it for you (and then excuse them from doing it again!) Have them run two shuttles and see where their times are - that will give you a gauge. I got my 300 yd shuttle program info from Coach Fry's staff at the Univ. of Iowa years ago. They used this exact set-up and projected times for the final test.
It is one tough test...if you attempt to implement this at the high school level, I would bet that you will be lucky to have 2% of your squad pass.
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Post by mnike23 on Jul 9, 2015 11:24:49 GMT -6
we do whats called 4 quarters.
1st quarter is a series of sprints from 5 to 40 yards. each one varies. for a total of 26 sprints. 1 guy jumps offsides,leaves late, doesnt sprint, doesnt cross line, etc. everyone goes back.
2nd quarter is repeat 1st quarter and then shorter sprints 5-25 yards. for 22 sprints.
3rd quarter is 1st and 2nd then 1st again
4th is 1,2,1,2.
we do this 2 thursdays(our last day of week) in june, then the last 2 thursdays in july before camp.
no times, its gut check for everyone.
you will see the leadership rise to the top and the true a holes as well when someone jumps and you repeat a sprint after sprint #84. happens yearly and the kids know its tough, but worth it.
dont attend on 4th quarter day, you dont get your equipment.
plus day 1 of fall practice you run 16 110s to practice and will get the bottom of the barrel on pads, pants, etc...
works every year.
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