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Post by kylem56 on Apr 19, 2009 15:00:50 GMT -6
The other thread "how many years does it take to be an expert" thread got me thinking. Every coach knows that football preparation is largely a matter of reps, reps, reps. Could it be possible to put a # on those reps? Of course this could vary by levels, age, experience etc.
How many repetitions do you think a player needs before they are able to excute a skill (say a reach block for example) sucessfully ?
or
Say your planning your pre season camps, How many reps do you think your team needs before you feel your team could soundly execute the play in a game?
I would love to hear from those especially keep #s on the amount of reps per play during their pre season.
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Post by joelee on Apr 19, 2009 15:31:08 GMT -6
If you do something correctly 17 times it will become a habit.
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hawke
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Post by hawke on Apr 19, 2009 16:50:47 GMT -6
You rep it until it becomes ingrained as the correct way to do it for what you are doing, but may I add that too many coaches are asking kids to do some skill they are not capable of doing. Only rep those things that your kids are capable of doing. That is the skill of coaching. Anyone, including my Golden Retriever can draw up plays and defenses. Are your kids capable of doing what you want them to do or are your expectations too great? Fit the system to the kid, not the kid to the system and you will be successful.
Hawke
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Post by morris on Apr 19, 2009 17:17:22 GMT -6
From "Coaching Football's Spread Offense" by Tim Stowers and Barry Butzer
pg 9
"A company in California studied sports skills and found that to become familar with a skill, an athlete must perform that skill 250,000 times. To perfect that skill the athlete must perform it almost 1, 000,000 times."
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Apr 19, 2009 17:57:46 GMT -6
From "Coaching Football's Spread Offense" by Tim Stowers and Barry Butzer pg 9 "A company in California studied sports skills and found that to become familar with a skill, an athlete must perform that skill 250,000 times. To perfect that skill the athlete must perform it almost 1, 000,000 times." That is easy enough. One hundred times a day, every day, for about three years. I'm hoping that joelee is closer to right!
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Post by silkyice on Apr 19, 2009 18:19:36 GMT -6
From "Coaching Football's Spread Offense" by Tim Stowers and Barry Butzer pg 9 "A company in California studied sports skills and found that to become familar with a skill, an athlete must perform that skill 250,000 times. To perfect that skill the athlete must perform it almost 1, 000,000 times." That is easy enough. One hundred times a day, every day, for about three years. I'm hoping that joelee is closer to right! Not trying to be a butt, but 250,000 reps is 100 reps a day (including weekends and holiday) for 6.8 years. And all that gets you is familar with a skill? I call BS!
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cmpd
Sophomore Member
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Post by cmpd on Apr 19, 2009 18:42:40 GMT -6
My sensei tells me that a skill needs to be repped 5,000 times to become an expert
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 19, 2009 18:54:51 GMT -6
How many repetitions do you think a player needs before they are able to excute a skill (say a reach block for example) sucessfully ? Successfully? It depends on the kid, but I'd feel comfortable saying that I can teach an average kid to reach block with <100 reps... Say your planning your pre season camps, How many reps do you think your team needs before you feel your team could soundly execute the play in a game? I feel comfortable calling a play when my kids can execute the play without prompting/correction from the coaches around 5 times. If they can do it, we can run it. As far as skill Mastery goes? I'd say the # of reps increases exponentially...maybe 1000+ per skill...
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Apr 19, 2009 20:15:00 GMT -6
Not trying to be a butt, but 250,000 reps is 100 reps a day (including weekends and holiday) for 6.8 years. I think I misplaced some zeros... I don't teach math anyway. All I need to know is that Columbus showed up in 14,902 and we declared independence in 776, right? By anybody's math, those rep numbers are high. I'm afraid that I don't know what "expertise" looks like in a play. I am a little envious of those DW guys that focus on sweep, toss, trap, and counter. Do those, and only those, and you'll likely see expertise. For even as few as ten plays, you have to be prepared for multiple defenses (and blitzes/stunts), often use multiple formations, and most of us have to split time between offense and defense for the day.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 19, 2009 21:09:40 GMT -6
I read some research somewhere that once a skill has been attained it should be correctly repped no more than 3 times daily. Once you go beyond 3 the law of diminishing returns kicks into gear.
Funny, I was watching a D1 practice and noticed that they were repping everything (individual skills) 3 to 4 times. No more, no less.
This isn't to say that a player who is just learning the skill of tackling should only rep each part of the progression 3 times. Once muscle memory has the skill in place, it should only take 3 reps to keep it sharp.
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Post by sweep26 on Apr 20, 2009 9:32:31 GMT -6
The degree of difficulty of the skill being taught, paired with the innate abilities of the athlete are major factors in determining the answer to this question.
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Post by dsqa on Apr 20, 2009 9:41:18 GMT -6
sweep26 is spot on. That is a great point.
The number of reps depends heavily on the athlete's sense of feel for what you are asking him to do.
Talent is the ability to process a request and apply it quickly. The teaching can be complicated, and the reps even tougher, so talent plays a huge role for sure.
I am also going to add maturity to the discussion as well. That is a big factor in the willingness of the athlete to process new material.
I have seen this over and over again in our training. The more innate ability the athlete possesses, the easier time he has implementing a teaching point. It does not mean a lesser talented athlete can't get it, it just takes more time.
Reps are important, but if you can inform those reps with teaching that produces understanding and feedback in the athlete, the number required for lasting change reduces dramatically.
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Post by fatkicker on Apr 20, 2009 9:59:40 GMT -6
i thought the doublewingers had a law on how many times a play should be repped....
if the dw coach fails to rep the play so many times and runs it in a game anyway then they are flogged with the great doublewing rod of supersweep......
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Post by gunandrun on Apr 20, 2009 16:13:50 GMT -6
It is much easier to learn to do something (create a habit) the correct way than to reteach it the new way (or break and existing habit).
Researcher Henry Wong stated that it would take a person between 1,000 and 2,000 reps doing something the new way to break an established habit. If you return to the old habit before reaching the magic number of between 1000 and 2000 you start over at 1.
Learn the correct way the first time and life is much simpler.
As a general rule I would say 200 reps of a play for it to be near automatic.
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Post by morris on Apr 20, 2009 16:49:25 GMT -6
Now the next question is do you count total reps of a play or right/left as different plays?
From watching Bill Williams stuff so much this comes up. He suggest you install to the left first and rep it 2 to 1 compared to the right. Of course you start getting into the whole, part, whole teaching method or building block method. Lets say you rep the shoot route 200 times and you use that route in 5 different pass plays. How much, if any, does this decrease the number of reps needed to run the play at a high level? There is also the difference between a rep and a quality rep.
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Post by gunandrun on Apr 20, 2009 16:56:08 GMT -6
I would say quality reps. Any sub par rep might cause a person to repeat that sub par behavior. Stress the proper technique and use it in a quality game speed rep. Mental reps are a whole different story/dimension. Like running veer steps backed up to a fence so you will not belly back on the option. Play reps better look like your backed up to a fence or they are a waste of time.
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Post by coachcathey on Apr 20, 2009 20:11:32 GMT -6
I know some options team philosophy shows that no play is ever ran in a game until it is executed in practice 300 times.
Operationally defining "execute" is probably different for each coach as well.
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