|
Post by spread007 on Feb 14, 2009 20:03:12 GMT -6
Hello. I just wanted some opinions from coaches that might have experienced this or have any output.
Anyway, this is my 2nd year as a head coach and we have a lot of talent on our hs team, but we have bad chemistry on the team. Their is one player that most of the players and parents do not accept and he is a homosexual. I have had many talks to many players and parents about it and some parents will not allow their child play on the team due to faith and beliefs. Some of my players are even homophobic.How would you handle this situation because my staff and I have tried our best to try and deal with this situation but we just need more input. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by dal9000 on Feb 14, 2009 20:30:38 GMT -6
Man, this is NOT what I expected to read when I clicked on the thread. Having said that -- uh, gosh. That's a tough one. Not really sure I can give you a good answer, 'cause I live in the San Fran Bay Area and the social attitude towards gay folks here MIGHT be slightly different than it is where you are. Just a smidgeon. But there are a couple-three things that spring to mind as good ideas, location or no.
The first one: sit down with the kid in question and have a long, long talk about what HE thinks about all this. That's a very tricky conversation to have, admittedly, and you might want to have someone else there as a witness (an admin?) -- but so long as you start by reassuring him that you don't intend to kick him off the team, and that nothing he says will leave the room, you might find out some very useful stuff.
The second thing: sort of the inverse of this. Sit down with the guys who are giving Kid A the most grief, and talk to /them/.
The third: maybe have a team meeting without the kid present, addressing the issue. Watch closely for differences in what the kids say in private and what they say in public -- I bet they'll be a LOT more vicious in a group than they were one-on-one. So point out that difference in behavior. Ask 'em why they suddenly turn into wolves when they're surrounded by their peers, when they behaved like /puppies/ one on one. Maybe no one really hates the kid that friggin' much. Maybe they need to take a nice deep breath, give it a rest, and get on with their lives.
'course, you might have done some or all of this already, in which case the only thing I've got to say is this: good luck!
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Feb 14, 2009 20:36:23 GMT -6
I think I saw this on a "Very Special" episode of Degrassi Junior High around 1987 or so.
|
|
|
Post by spread007 on Feb 14, 2009 22:06:16 GMT -6
I honestly have done that. I have talked to my players as one unit. Some parents are getting involved in this as well. I just honestly have no idea what to do, im in a pickle. If I let him go, then it would lead to something bad and if I keep him then players won't play and parents would complain and..
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Feb 14, 2009 23:14:30 GMT -6
Is the kid openly gay? Like flaming? How do you know he is gay?
I know this is really easy for me to say, but, if the kid works hard, does everything you ask, and meets your standards, how can you "let him go"? That just doesn't seem right. If you were coaching 40 years ago and you had white kids refusing to play with black kids, what would you have done?
Don't make a decision that you will regret in the future. The fact of the matter is, as long as he isn't scoping out potential prom dates in the locker room, this really isn't something you should be even considering banishing a kid from your program for.
|
|
|
Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 3:35:13 GMT -6
My first thought is that you have "talent" on the roster that needs to go. If you have kids who are cancers and not following team rules as you lay them out, talented or not...why keep them around?
You need to lay down the expectation that hatred, discrimination, intolerance are not permitted in your locker room, in the school or in the community. You cant tolerate it.
Regarding the gay haters- I would let the kids who are homophobic go. I would let those who are saying they wont play due to 'faith" go as well, sounds more like being judgemental than having faith to me. They arent marrying the kid for crying out loud.
Maybe the local "IgnorantRUs" league has the need for a few more players. Seriously if the "gay" kid is not the one causing the trouble but the gay bashers are....you are about to establish yourself as one who defends the weak or one who supports hate.
Second, this is an issue MUCH MUCH BIGGER THAN FOOTBALL and you will do well to take this one to administration RIGHT NOW. This whole think reeks of sexual harassment and DISCRIMINATION in one way or another and you may very well find yourself in a situation much worse than 'who to let go of".
back I the 80s I recall a football or baseball player being beaten to death by a few anti gay kids. finally, have you done any research to find out what football players (pro or college) were known to be gay? Might be a way to educate some of your players.
This can be one of those "What would Jesus do?" kinds of things. Do the right thing, do not let "talent" cloud the picture here.
You have your work cut out for you but I will bet that if you forget talent for a minute, totally take it out of the equation, you know exactly what needs to be done.
Think about your program....
Put your team morale at the top, things might get worse before they get better though. What things do you need to do to improve morale?
Put discipline and character development at the top, way above talent and athleticism. What things do you need to do to teach character development and to keep the good character kids around? What kind of discipline policy do you have in place now and what can you do to have a more disciplined team?
Put leadership and team work above potential and talent. Who are your leaders? Are they good kids or low character kids? how can you develop the kinds of leaders that will be good for the program?
Placing the emphasis on TEAM BEFORE SELF has to start with you too. I think when you make decisions you have to make sure they are best for the program, best for the team before they are best for any one individual and that could be the real key here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 7:36:18 GMT -6
Where do you stand on the matter coach?
You need to tell them to accept him PERIOD. Anything other is discriminatory. We don't teach team, we teach family. You accept family, you care for family, you'll even die for family, no matter who they are, what they do or who they pray to at night.
I agree completely with touchdownmaker. You need to get the team together, and show them you are absolutely disgusted with them for not accepting the kid for who he is.
Dont ask them, tell them they are going to learn a new word today"TEAM-MATE". Then lay down the law telling them the punishment is beyond severe, and you WILL remove anyone from the team that harrasses the kid.
You next need to meet with the parents, and tell them the same. He's on this team and will remain so if you wish to tkae your kid off the team, feel free to do so. There WILL BE NO discriminatory practices here. This is a case of right and wrong, to hell with their beleifs. This is reality, I mean, do you really think noone in the NFL is gay? come on.
Religious beleifs B/S...don't get me started, on that crap.
I can understand not wanting to shower if the kid is in there, that's understandable. Maybe you don't want him as a QB if you are a center..Ok I get it. But that crap has no place within the confines of the sport. Football is exclusionary only to those who do not want to be there, not for who somebody is , what they beleive.etc...
This is a case where I'd be willing to lose a job over the issue
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on Feb 15, 2009 11:31:46 GMT -6
What are you saying, no blacks are gay? Wow!
|
|
|
Post by gpoulin76 on Feb 15, 2009 11:40:46 GMT -6
I think what dcohio is saying is that in "black" culture it is even more taboo for a black male to openly admit that he is gay than in a "white" culture.
I know that sounds crazy, but there are cultural differences regarding acceptability between whites and blacks when it comes to male homosexuality.
|
|
billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
|
Post by billyn on Feb 15, 2009 14:00:57 GMT -6
Coach, one thing I would tell you is not to discuss this issue at all with your kids other than that no hazing, harassment, or bullying will be allowed. You have a legal minefield your in with this situation, and I can seriously see you ending up on an episode of 60 Minutes in the future. In fact, I think you probably are already hanging in the wind if this kid wants to make an issue of it. It is never a good idea to discuss the home life of any player in any way with other kids or their parents. I'd also start documenting everything that happens from this time forward, and how you deal with it. You better get with your administration also, and get them on record as how they want you to handle this situation. You've been dealt a difficult situation, but some things aren't fixable by you. The law is very clear about discrimination of students based on sexual orientation, and no matter your own personal beliefs you have to follow it. Also, sometimes moving to another job isn't a bad option. One thing about high school coaching is that a lot of variables are completely out of your control, one thing you always control is your actions, and I don't know all of the details of this one, but I know if I wanted to win and I had a situation I could not address that I thought was going to hamper that I'd change my situation.
|
|
moose18
Junior Member
"If it didn't matter who won or lost, they wouldn't keep score"
Posts: 286
|
Post by moose18 on Feb 15, 2009 16:40:12 GMT -6
So Bill you would leave your job if you had a gay kid join the team?
|
|
billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
|
Post by billyn on Feb 15, 2009 18:46:27 GMT -6
If I had a situation where I had a gay kid determined to be open and out with his sexuality, and I had a core of my team and their parents determined that he shouldn't be there, and I thought there was no way I was going to win in this situation I would get out of it. I don't care if anyone is gay or not. I care about winning football games, and sometimes you get dealt a hand that is better to fold than to play.
|
|
|
Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 19:25:36 GMT -6
Why does this young man feel the need to broadcast his sexual orientation anyhow???
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 19:51:56 GMT -6
I think what dcohio is saying is that in "black" culture it is even more taboo for a black male to openly admit that he is gay than in a "white" culture. I know that sounds crazy, but there are cultural differences regarding acceptability between whites and blacks when it comes to male homosexuality. Hence the "Down Low"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 20:02:56 GMT -6
Coach, one thing I would tell you is not to discuss this issue at all with your kids other than that no hazing, harassment, or bullying will be allowed. You have a legal minefield your in with this situation, and I can seriously see you ending up on an episode of 60 Minutes in the future. In fact, I think you probably are already hanging in the wind if this kid wants to make an issue of it. It is never a good idea to discuss the home life of any player in any way with other kids or their parents. I'd also start documenting everything that happens from this time forward, and how you deal with it. You better get with your administration also, and get them on record as how they want you to handle this situation. You've been dealt a difficult situation, but some things aren't fixable by you. The law is very clear about discrimination of students based on sexual orientation, and no matter your own personal beliefs you have to follow it. Also, sometimes moving to another job isn't a bad option. One thing about high school coaching is that a lot of variables are completely out of your control, one thing you always control is your actions, and I don't know all of the details of this one, but I know if I wanted to win and I had a situation I could not address that I thought was going to hamper that I'd change my situation. In Which case you are better off ( and should want to be) part of the solution, than part of the problem. Coaching is parenting, how many times have you heard that? that's not something I came up with, imagine if this was your son. If standing by this kid, when he needed it because of some religious zealot homophobic parents of some of the other players, cost me my job, ...then so be it. Your moral fiber will NEVER be called into question.
|
|
billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
|
Post by billyn on Feb 15, 2009 20:43:08 GMT -6
Coaching isn't parenting. Parenting is parenting. Coaches manage their team and kids learn some things about work and how to treat people from functioning in a team environment. The coach's number one job is to create an environment that best gives his team an opportunity to win. There is a ton of potential for lawsuits in this situation. The coach's role in this is to make sure that no harassment of this kid takes place under his watch. It's not his place to inform his kids that their religious beliefs are wrong or try to enlighten them about right or wrong in this situation. Those parents and kids who are opinionated about homosexuality more often than not are coming from a religious viewpoint. You can make sure that no one gets mistreated while at the same time not alienating anyone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 21:12:24 GMT -6
"coaching is Parenting" again I forget where I saw it but it wasn't mine
I'm not saying that he should inform kids their religious beleifs are wrong. I agree this is fertile ground for a lawsuit, in which it's better to be a part of the solution than part of the problem.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Feb 15, 2009 21:47:52 GMT -6
Hill Larry us! 1. Delta asked the very important question... how do you know the kid is gay? This has yet to be answered... and it is key to how you respondd. 2. Don't ask questions you don't want to know the answers to. You have football players on the football team... that's it, that's all, not gay and straight... not black and white... not even girl and boy... all you have is football players, coach them up. 3. If you have an issue of football players not getting along, handle that... and when I handle players not getting along, why, isn't really relevant, it ending, is what's important. 4. All these peoeple wanting a kid off of the team, when did they get a vote? The rule states, if a kid does... he gets to play. If the kid is doing, he gets to play.... if others are harassing him, they'll have to pay. Don't allow situations to get unncecessarily complicated... this is a issue of one of your football players not being liked by others. Can't make kids like each other... but you can make them act accordingly... if not, they'll be in great shape. So umm... what the problem is?
|
|
|
Post by ajreaper on Feb 16, 2009 8:43:41 GMT -6
Khalfie is right IMO. If parents have issues with the roster let them know they do not have any say in the matter, if they wish to remove their kids from the team help them clean out his locker, if players verbally or physically abuse aotehr player hammer them good- the issue as to why they do it really does not matter.
|
|
|
Post by atalbert on Feb 16, 2009 9:28:06 GMT -6
Last year, we had two kids who privately told me they didn't like each other and couldn't wait to beat the other's a$$ the first chance they got. I told the team "You don't have to be best friends with everyone on this team, but you sure as heck better like the guy who's covering your a$$ NEXT to you MORE than the guy who's trying to KICK it ACROSS from you"
Is this kid a starter? If he is, let the other 10 play without him when you go team for a few series. Tell the other side of the ball to exploit the fact that he's not there. See how they fare going 11 on 10. Maybe they'll realize that they NEED him to be successful regardless of whether they like him or not. Then tell them to shut up and play football.
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Feb 16, 2009 12:15:14 GMT -6
khalfie has some good points. (and yes, Hell probably feels a lot like Minnesota right now for me to admit that)
Plenty of our young men play high. Plenty of our young men steal. Plenty of our young men date rape. Plenty of our young men murder. Plenty of our young men are pedophiles (far more prevalent than anyone thinks.....or is willing to admit......about 25% of your team are victims of sexual abuse, about 5% are abusers themselves).
As a coach, I would let the parents who want to pull their kids pull them......you'd be amazed how much a pissed off 16 year old can convince his parents to let him play.
I would then coach the players on my team.......my job is not to delegate morality, it is to coach football.
And football, in it's purest form is not about your last name, color of your skin, country of origin, sexual orientation, religion, sex, height, weight, or socio-economic class........
It's about FIGHTING! It's about quitters and perservering. It's about struggle. It's about glory and honor, in victory and defeat. It's about breaking down BS walls of society's safeguards and boiling it down to the original question of human existence: Me and mine will survive, or we will die, BUT BY GOD, we will never quit.
Football coaches don't delegate morality, but they do teach it, and it is the most important kind:
Heroes are simply those who did the right thing, the right way, the first time, EVERY time.
And EVERYONE needs these truths......the true evil here is denying young men access to one of the last places where these lessons can be learned at a young age.
Besides the fact, can the SOB catch, run, block, etc.? Cause that should be all you are worried about.......
The parents made it an issue.......treat it like any other issue parents raise.
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on Feb 16, 2009 14:29:59 GMT -6
I think what dcohio is saying is that in "black" culture it is even more taboo for a black male to openly admit that he is gay than in a "white" culture. I know that sounds crazy, but there are cultural differences regarding acceptability between whites and blacks when it comes to male homosexuality. There are cultural differences between races??? What???
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on Feb 16, 2009 14:41:19 GMT -6
Hill Larry us! 1. Delta asked the very important question... how do you know the kid is gay? This has yet to be answered... and it is key to how you respondd. 2. Don't ask questions you don't want to know the answers to. You have football players on the football team... that's it, that's all, not gay and straight... not black and white... not even girl and boy... all you have is football players, coach them up. 3. If you have an issue of football players not getting along, handle that... and when I handle players not getting along, why, isn't really relevant, it ending, is what's important. 4. All these peoeple wanting a kid off of the team, when did they get a vote? The rule states, if a kid does... he gets to play. If the kid is doing, he gets to play.... if others are harassing him, they'll have to pay. Don't allow situations to get unncecessarily complicated... this is a issue of one of your football players not being liked by others. Can't make kids like each other... but you can make them act accordingly... if not, they'll be in great shape. So umm... what the problem is? I like most of what you wrote here, except number 2. Yes, you have players, but you have white players and black players and gay players and straight players and rich players and poor players.... you fill in the blank. These players all come with different baggage to the team. They all need someone to help them deal with that baggage. It may not matter on the field, but it sure matters in the locker room, in the school building and what they do outside of your domain. You must deal with their situations, and meet it head on. Don't hide the problem or overlook it. If your kids don't like each other - you have a problem and it can tear your team up. I promise you they are taking sides on the matter without your guidance, and it is being played out in your locker room. If you don't address it (maybe not out in the open), with the key players in this situation it is going to be an issue.
|
|
|
Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 16, 2009 16:03:45 GMT -6
Dennis Rodman anyone?
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Feb 16, 2009 16:59:22 GMT -6
khalfie has some good points. (and yes, Hell probably feels a lot like Minnesota right now for me to admit that). That's right Dub... tell the world... you love me... you worship me... you want to be me... say it... say it I say! It was only a matter of time before you admitted it... Don't worry... there are others... and soon I will unify the entirety of you all... and one day rule the world.... ah ah ah ah ah... (sinister laugh of course)
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Feb 16, 2009 17:14:19 GMT -6
I like most of what you wrote here, except number 2. Yes, you have players, but you have white players and black players and gay players and straight players and rich players and poor players.... you fill in the blank. These players all come with different baggage to the team. They all need someone to help them deal with that baggage. Et tu' Warrior? 1. How do you treat the Black players differently than the white players? The rich differently than the poor? The gay differently than the heterosexual? You, my friend, are making the classic mistake of generalizing people, on characteristics that aren't generalizable. Treating players differently based on race, economic status, or sexual identity, is the exact discrimination said folks are fighting against, even if its favorable. 2. By no means is anyone saying you can't be empathetic to a players situation. But that's a players situation... not a black players situation, not a poor players situation, not even a gay players situation, but a "TROUBLED Players" situation... and you should help that player, just as you would a white player, black, rich, poer, or gay. 3. How do you treat a rich Black homosexual kid? If your answer is differently, then you are wrong... if your answer is like a player... then you are right. I appreciate your deeper insight, and at the same time applaud you for being aware that race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic status have a baring in this world... but you do all of your players an injustice, when you allow societies indiscretions to enter your locker room... Will there be problems... yes... do you solve the problems differently based on whom has the problems... yes... but do you treat your rich and poor, black and white, gay and hetero players differently... No... not at all...
|
|
|
Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 16, 2009 18:37:44 GMT -6
Why does this young man feel the need to broadcast his sexual orientation anyhow??? Is he "broadcasting" his orientation, or is it one of those cases where he privately told a friend or nervously made a move on somebody he was interested in and got the HS rumor mill cranked up? Everyone else has added a lot to this discussion, and yes, this is a minefield you're stumbling into. I will say two things, though... In some states, IIRC, sexual orientation is NOT a protected class under the law. You can legally discriminate against gays all you want. That doesn't make it right, though, and that still won't stop politics and negative press from destroying your career. The other thing is personal. One of my closest friends is a lesbian. We're both from really conservative small towns in the South. She "came out" to a handful of friends her Junior year of HS and it pretty much ruined her life. Only a couple of her longtime friends stuck with her, while everyone else she trusted turned on her immediately. It caused a lot of problems within her own fundamentalist Christian family, too. Her mom blamed her father for "making" her gay and accused him of molesting her (she has emphatically said he did no such thing), and they both started pressuring her to attend one of those "gay re-education" camps. Mom even brought some members of the church over to perform a surprise exorcism on her once. I've talked to her about this a lot. She said she knew it was going to get tough for her, but she felt like she had to come out and start being honest with people because she just couldn't go on pretending to be someone she wasn't, or to be socially isolated while all the other kids were dating, etc. She never "broadcast" anything or became some lecherous lesbian who was staring at other girls in the showers. She just told a couple of close friends and before she knew it, she was a pariah. Many of the kids who caused her the most trouble in HS have since come out as being gay or bi themselves. Heck, the one who caused her the MOST trouble was a girl she had fooled around with once. Female homosexuality isn't even stigmatized nearly as much as it is for men. I shudder to think of what your player is going through. It's a tough situation, but unless the kid is trying to make his own homosexuality an issue, I believe you should be loyal to him as long as he does what is asked of him. What would you do if he was a Muslim kid and the others refused to play with him because of "religious reasons?" I can understand other kids being uncomfortable, and even a little scared, because they're kids and they don't know any better yet, but that's no excuse for shorting a dedicated football player. Good luck, coach.
|
|
|
Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 17, 2009 11:24:54 GMT -6
If he is openly gay, doesn't that make for awkwardness in the locker room on the part of your other players? Wouldn't you feel grossed out if you had to undress in front of of a guy who might be "desiring" you? Isn't it like putting a boy in a shower full of naked girls? I guess my point is, shouldn't he be treated like a girl who is playing football, and be made to dress seperately? Or would that be considered discrimination? I agree, it's a tough situation, and not one I've thought about before.
|
|
|
Post by dal9000 on Feb 17, 2009 14:30:01 GMT -6
I guess my point is, shouldn't he be treated like a girl who is playing football, and be made to dress seperately?
We have a girl on the team, and she does of course have to dress separately... but that's because we want our boys' first sight of {censored} to be special. ;D
Half-serious answer: just stick in him a row of lockers with your fattest linemen. Problem SOLVED.
All-serious answer: I don't really think you can tell the guy to dress separately. The problem is that his teammates are ostracizing him. The solution sure ain't for YOU to ostracize him further. I have no idea what the solution IS, though. It's a really thorny issue.
|
|
|
Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 17, 2009 20:09:41 GMT -6
Even by conservative estimates, homosexuals make up an estimated 2-3% of the population. If you extrapolate that to a roster of 33-50 people, most HS teams will probably have at least one closeted gay player on their team at any given time. Most coaches here have probably already coached several gay players without even knowing it. You probably have a few in your program right now. The odds are pretty good that at least one other player on this guy's team is also secretly gay. Has this caused any problems for you? Probably not.
And what does all this mean? Absolutely nothing!
If the kid is being respectful of his fellow teammates and is doing what's asked of him, he should be treated as one of the guys just as all the secretly gay players who've passed through the locker rooms before him were The others should be asked to accept him as a teammate. If people were pulling this crap because he was Muslim, or Mormon, or Jewish, etc what would you tell them?
This is a very tough situation, with no clear "victory."
|
|