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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 8, 2009 10:40:44 GMT -6
One advantage to being at a small school is that I NOTICE WHEN KIDS ARE MISSING from workouts.
I sent a couple of emails home on Friday evening asking parents where their sons were and expressing my desire to see them become part of the core in our program.
I made it clear that the off season is the time to earn respect, develop comraderie and get bigger, stronger, faster for football.
I find this is a good way to find out quickly which parents are tuned in and supportive and which ones are detached and clueless when it comes to their sons involvement. I really stress the "lets work together"-
One email response I got back made it clear that Mom babies her son to the point that I will never be able to count on him to work out with the team for the good of the team and program. I plan to follow up with a phone call if he misses another workout. I also speak to the boy at school and like I said earlier, february is my time limit for pressure. You are in or you are out. You can still show up in August, but do not expect to see the field.
To be clear, our off season requirements are really pretty easy, we expect to see our kids for 2 hours total each week, thats 30 minutes four times a week! Honestly, if a kid is too busy to do that then hes not a football player.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Feb 8, 2009 10:58:49 GMT -6
Not a HS coach, but I think two hours a week is VERY reasonable.
I also liked the way you phrased the e-mail, showing you want the boys to become part of the core of the team. It shows you're interested in team building during the off-season (rather than letting it fall off the radar). I would think the boys and parents would be drawn to that in a coach.
Just curious, did your "let's work together" approach get you any positive responses where a parent replied "Coach, my son will be there from now on"?
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Post by touchdowng on Feb 8, 2009 11:47:29 GMT -6
TDmaker Have you used the important angle of injury prevention and minimization with your parents as the main rationale for HS off season lifting?
Many moms could care less about Bigger, Faster and Stronger but all can relate to having their baby injured.
I've had to tell parents that if they aren't fully supporting our strength training efforts they are indirectly setting their sons up for an injury that, for example, could have been a slight strain (maybe 3 days out) to something that ends up being a severe tear (maybe half the season). I know it isn't their intentions, to make an injury worse, but the data would support that players who lift year around are going to be on the field more than those that don't and they, as parents, share in the responsiblity to safeguard their kids in what is very much a collision sport. I'm very direct about this.
The only argument I would get from parents (usually Dads) is that they have hired a "personal trainer" and they are going to get it done at the gym. I make them agree to come to our testing every 8th week and see how well their son is improving. I've had two situations like this in the past 4 season. Believe it or not, both dad's brought their jimmy and joe along with their personal trainers to our testing week.
The result? They didn't measure up with Bench, Squats, Cleans and Vertical Jumping. The boys looked good (like Tarzan) but when it came to performance, they performed like Jane.
One kid never played again and the other started to show up in our weight room regularly.
I have no problem being direct with parents about weight room and if they are not on the ship with both feet, I don't count on the kid either.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Feb 8, 2009 11:49:35 GMT -6
Parents -- you can't live with them, and you can't use their flesh for shish kabobs -- unless you're Rob Zombie.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 8, 2009 12:15:44 GMT -6
I think your approach in the letter was good. You set the bar with your expectations and have put the ball in their court. Now they either get with you or they bail. The old personal trainer excuse is classic- they never show the same gains.
The best thing that happened to me was we had a D1 kid get early offers from Vtech and some other schools, and he was doing my training program until he got the offers- his mom & uncle suggested he start training at a local athlete training center. He started, trained for a month, then came back to us- his reasoning was that he was getting the exact same training with me but didn't have to pay the 300 bucks. He held the respect of the kids at school and when word spread that he was back, I didn't hear another thing about training outside of the school program-
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2009 21:10:39 GMT -6
Parents -- you can't live with them, and you can't use their flesh for shish kabobs -- unless you're Rob Zombie. I don't know dude, maybe if you season them just right...
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Post by knighter on Feb 9, 2009 10:17:37 GMT -6
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer....
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2009 11:24:52 GMT -6
Good point about injury prevention. I think there are as many parental points of view as there are parents. Some want junior to be tougher, some want him to be safe, some want scholarships, some want life lessons, some want wins, some think a well-balanced life looks good on college applications.
I guess the only thing that is consistent is that every parent is most concerned about the kid they feed, house, and care for. They want to know that you care about their kid too. I think it helps to point out everything to parents and let them pick and choose the reason that best fits them.
And I wouldn't quote Rob Zombie when you talk to them. . .unless they're really cool.
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brimanning
Freshmen Member
Online Football Software
Posts: 39
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Post by brimanning on Feb 10, 2009 13:18:47 GMT -6
The parent is concerned with 1 kid, and their decisions are based on what they believe is in the best interest of that one kid. The coach is concerned with the TEAM, and their decisions should be based on what they believe is in the best interest of the TEAM. and sometimes those 2 ideals conflict and some kids don't make it into the life raft, you have to let them drown. I think that is the most important thing to keep in mind with situations like that. When it happens, you have to focus on the rest of the team who wants to be there.
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Post by brophy on Feb 10, 2009 13:54:26 GMT -6
why do we let 5% of the population spoil our attitude towards the other 95%?
Parents can resemble a lack of control within our program only if we allow ourselves to alienate ourselves from them, rather embracing them for what they are (extensions of our player's relationships).
I'm just saying, sure some of them can be a real challenge and miss the point of athletics, but the majority of them just want to win, want their sons to compete for wins, and develop into their athletic potential.
We can't win all the battles, and they don't all have to be wars to win, but cooperatives for the same (desired) result.
Parents can be a blessing or a curse, and it all depends on how we are willing to frame them that determines their ultimate impact to our sanity/success.
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Post by 19delta on Feb 10, 2009 20:05:45 GMT -6
why do we let 5% of the population spoil our attitude towards the other 95%? ...but the majority of them just want to win, want their sons to compete for wins, and develop into their athletic potential. I disagree vehemently. As previously stated, the VAST majority of parents, at least the ones I have dealt with, have as priority #1, what they believe is in the best interest of their son. More times than not, what is best for junior is not what is best for "the team". Winning? Sure...winning is great as long as Junior is a part of the winning. However, if the team is winning but Junior is not directly participating in the winning, you are going to have some pretty grumpy parents. And that isn't necessarily "bad"...it is what it is. The key, as a coach, is recognizing that parents can be either friend OR foe, depending on circumstances that are often in flux. I'm at a point in my career in which I don't actively cultivate friendly relationships with parents. I am cordial to them and they are included in team functions, but I really don't want to be "friends" with the parents of our players anymore than I want to be "friends" with administrators or school board members. Like administrators or school board members, parents often have an agenda that includes items of which coaches are not privy.
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Post by brophy on Feb 11, 2009 7:24:41 GMT -6
I'm at a point in my career in which I don't actively cultivate friendly relationships with parents. I am cordial to them and they are included in team functions, but I really don't want to be "friends" with the parents of our players anymore than I want to be "friends" with administrators or school board members. that was the point, though. We are upset that parents aren't doing for US, ME, and my career... because they want for THEM, and THEIRS. That is why you cultivate the relationships, isn't it? For a working relationship. Just because we talk, doesn't mean we're buddies. It means that I can listen, receive, and also share with you (and you do the same) - and isn't that what the game, essentially is? Developing relationships (not dictatorships)? If football is just about THE COACH and what he needs, we will never get the support or attitudes WE want. We aren't going to make every parent happy, but to dismiss every possible resource (parents) because a few are delusional doesn't sound very forward-thinking, and only puts us further on an island left to fend for ourselves (and work harder than necessary).
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 11, 2009 7:30:36 GMT -6
I think a "friend of the program" is different than being buddys with the coach. Sorry if folks are misunderstanding of my post.
A friend of the program can be a parent whos never met the head coach. they make sandwiches for the kids, they make arrangements to car pool and get kids to practice, they make sure their kids get up and make workouts etc. the foe is the parent who enables their kid to be a failure and underachiever and then blames the coach.
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Post by brophy on Feb 11, 2009 7:37:09 GMT -6
point being - touchdownmaker is doing a great thing by opening up lines of communication with the parents. Sure, he may be in a small school, but this is just as manageable for a large school, dealing with the 40 some players with their parents, step-parents, uncles,aunts, grandmas, and whoever else guardian involved which makes the 200-something network a weight that can support the program or topple it. Whether we want to put forth the effort or not, our players DO have families, and those families usually consist of parents. So we can either choose to get them on our team, or ignore / alienate them - but either way, they still exist.
TDmaker's effort to inform the parents here opens up the dialogue to build a support network for the program. They are not all going to beat down your door to offer their support, and by making the first step, it sends a signal that you welcome them being involved in "the program". Many parents WANT to help, they just aren't given or don't know of a way to get involved.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 11, 2009 9:38:08 GMT -6
As long as little Johnny's parents are satisfied, they are your friends. When they become dissatisfied, they become, to one degree or another, your foe.
It's always the coach's fault if little Johnny isn't playing, or isn't playing well. If their kid isn't playing, it's a personal attack or insult to them.
They will turn on you in an instant.
I've never seen it not happen.
So at any given point, you have many parents against you, some for you, and some who are undecided (usually parents of your younger players.)
The question in my mind isn't whether or not a parent is a friend or a foe, but at what point will they become a foe when things don't go their way, and how big of a stink are they going to make?
Case in point: Starting QB's father, friend of the program, helped with all sorts of things all the time. On 8 plays in the last game, I switched a better runner in at QB out of the gun because our two best RBs were hurt. Just a gimmick. After the game Daddy comes unglued, saying we did his son wrong, destroyed his confidence, and was ready to fight every one of us. Still won't talk to us. Still bad mouthing us.
That's just the way it is.
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Post by brophy on Feb 11, 2009 10:25:38 GMT -6
I suppose this mentality carries over into teaching as well, right?
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Post by atalbert on Feb 11, 2009 10:44:08 GMT -6
A parent was complaining about Jimmy's playing time. Claimed he was better than ALL 3 playing in front of Jimmy. HC told him he would have a meeting to discuss it with Jimmy and Daddy.
Oh, by the way... I'll only have the meeting if you round up the three kids you think Jimmy should be playing in front of - AND their parents and bring them into the meeting with you. Then we'll all sit down and figure out who should be playing and how much.
Jimmy and Daddy never showed...and shut up the rest of the year.
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Post by rideanddecide on Feb 11, 2009 10:54:51 GMT -6
Isn't it amazing that as coaches so many of us sit around complaining about parents and administrators? Guess what parents and administrators are doing? COMPLAINING ABOUT COACHES!!!
Sometimes you have to vent about that one parent that set you off, but for the most part just learn to work together like big boys and girls and deal with it.
You'll never have a 100% approval rating. If you need that to be happy, the public life isn't for you.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 11, 2009 12:09:19 GMT -6
It's just part of the job. I'm not complaining about it - just stating my opinion. My opinion is based on my experiences, just as all of yours are.
To answer Brophy truthfully, no it doesn't. Parents aren't as emotional about their children's performance in the classroom, mainly, I think, because it's not public.
Brophy's experiences have given him a different perspective, and if there's something that I can learn that will keep a parent happy and satisfied when another player takes his son's job, or when his son hardly gets to play because he's not as good as the guys in front of him -then I would love to know that.
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Post by rideanddecide on Feb 11, 2009 12:26:36 GMT -6
Some things I've done in the past that don't always keep parents happy, but does make them shut up pretty quickly....
1. During individual post season meetings I hand out a sheet that lays out our expectations for the off season and how that relates to playing time. I also email a copy home. The goal is for the athlete and parent to read the expectations and then let me know what category they fit in. If they don't do this, then I can say, "Well I sent out our expectations and you and your son did not take the time to look them over. That's not my problem." Otherwise, if they tell me the are a "champion" and will be at everything I can say, "You and your son both signed agreeing that he would A, B, and C. You didn't live up to your end of the bargain."
2. Share attendance at off season activities and speed/strength improvements over time. Usually you see a pattern of a kid not working and therefore he isn't getting better. Last year I got to tell a mother that her son wasn't playing because he got lighter, smaller, and slower from the year before.
Parents will ALWAYS be upset at something. It's covering your bases and presenting things as they are that end the conversations real quick.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 11, 2009 13:11:25 GMT -6
Good points beardc! I already go overboard with # 2, and I like the idea on #1.
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Post by cnunley on Feb 11, 2009 13:24:08 GMT -6
A parent was complaining about Jimmy's playing time. Claimed he was better than ALL 3 playing in front of Jimmy. HC told him he would have a meeting to discuss it with Jimmy and Daddy. Oh, by the way... I'll only have the meeting if you round up the three kids you think Jimmy should be playing in front of - AND their parents and bring them into the meeting with you. Then we'll all sit down and figure out who should be playing and how much. Jimmy and Daddy never showed...and shut up the rest of the year. Would have loved to see the parents face after that comment
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Post by brophy on Feb 11, 2009 13:56:05 GMT -6
maybe I'm in left field here - so correct me if I'm misguided, but what is the benefit in setting up parents as the opposition? Are there a few parents that make coaching a living hell? Yes, I cannot argue that, but to the point the thread's author makes is ---- can parents benefit your program? I would think they could. I would be curious if it is possible to view this from the other perspective. I am not sure that every backup has parents petitioning for your removal. I am sure that those that are not starting, or are starting and not being the sensational player their parents think they are have come to those conclusions in some way ( kids that were always big/fast through youth ball who looked like studs, but then never bothered to put the effort into becoming a better player, and find themselves getting dominated by their competition). How much effort does it take on our part to steer the momentum of the body of parents to support the kids and the entire program (not just our own immediate needs)? example of an off season mailing to parents; sitekreator.com/brophyfootball7/main_page.html
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Post by atalbert on Feb 11, 2009 17:24:06 GMT -6
I am sure that those that are not starting, or are starting and not being the sensational player their parents think they are have come to those conclusions in some way ( kids that were always big/fast through youth ball who looked like studs, but then never bothered to put the effort into becoming a better player, and find themselves getting dominated by their competition). Our HS is a Co-OP. Alot of these parents played when the schools were separate - and tiny. They would each field teams with 15 varsity players (with terrible results). Now with the Co-Op, we have 30-35 every year. These parents just aren't aware of what it takes now to compete. Back when most of the parents played, there were probably a handful of kids that lifted weights - say 5 or 6. Everyone else relied on natural ability. When these parents were 6'3 260 lbs, they were simply bigger than their opponents and it allowed them to be pretty good players without working all that hard. Now, you've got a handful of kids -say 5-6 - that DON'T lift weights on a regular basis. Those kids fall behind quickly in today's game. Yes, there is always the exception of the one kid so talented that he doesn't need to lift or is naturally strong, etc. But for the most part, in today's game, if you have a 6'3 260 lb fat, lazy sack of turd who doesn't condition or lift going against a 6'0 210 lb well-conditioned athlete who can bench, squat and lift more than the 260 lb kid, its not even a contest. The fat, lazy turd will lose every time. Kids in EVERY sport get VERY good at being the biggest (football) or tallest (basketball) kid when they're young without learning how to be fundamentally sound or work hard. Unfortunately, when other kids get just as big or just as tall AND have a better work ethic - (and this usually happens around sophomore or junior year) - they ultimately fall behind. Its hard for the parents to come to grips with sometimes because they started both ways in HS. The reality is they played because they had to, not because they were great. I find that it usually becomes "the coach's fault" pretty soon after that state of mind sets in. Its talked about in the car, at the dinner table, at the volleyball games, etc.
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Post by 19delta on Feb 11, 2009 20:00:04 GMT -6
I suppose this mentality carries over into teaching as well, right? To what "mentality" are you referring? If the "mentality" is that I have to teach a kid regardless of who his parents are and what his homelife is like then yes, the mentality carries over into teaching.
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Post by bleefb on Feb 11, 2009 23:32:32 GMT -6
I think with parents the line is "Trust...but verify." I saw both ends of the spectrum growing up. My Aunt and Uncle were the worst little league parents in the world. They were known to EVERYONE and made my cousins life miserable. My Mom, on the other hand, was the perfect parent in my eyes. She worked the snack bar when asked, came to the games, knew nothing about football, fed me after the game was over, and NO ONE KNEW SHE WAS MY MOM. After watching my cousin almost have a nervous breakdown, I am eternally grateful for that. Most players are embarrassed by their parents' actions. Now dealing with them as adults, I think the watchword is to be professional. Be polite, cordial, but realize they will NEVER see things from your perspective. If you think they are your friend, and in some cases they may have been prior to coaching their child, just remember that blood is thicker than water. Hey, we aren't any different. I've watched many a coach berate a coach in a different sport from the stands, saying the same things they ridicule parents for saying to them. They can't help it, and probably don't even realize what they sound like. Whether we like it or not, it's not going to get better. Websites, message boards,and the cost of college just adds fuel to their fire. It's part of the job, just like bad officiating. (Oops, another topic!) ;D
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 12, 2009 10:30:32 GMT -6
Coach Brophy,
If I gave the impression that I am antagonistic and hostile to parents, then I apologize. I didn't mean to give that impression. Sometimes I'm in a hurry and I don't fully explain what I mean.
I do make the effort to get the parents behind the program. I do a newsletter (not as nice as yours), at least 5 letters home a year, parent meetings, booster club meetings each month, team nights, meals, team trips, small talk with parents after workouts and practices, etc.
The majority of the parents are behind the program, and that is because they are satisfied with their son's level of involvement.
"If they become dissatisfied with their son's level of involvement, they become, to one degree or another, your foe." This doesn't neccessarily mean that they will be petitioning for your removal, but they will blame you, and that will manifest itself one way or another according to that person's character.
In their minds, you are treating their son unfairly, or you are incompetent, or you are holding something against their son, or you are holding something against them (the parents), or you are just wrong. Their son is disappointed, they are disappointed, and you are the cause. It's an emotional issue - and reality, fairness, and all the documentation in the world to support your position won't change the way they feel. It might shut them up, but it won't change their feelings.
dcohio nailed it on the head, "Parents' priorities are singular and if push comes to shove their interest are 100% selfish."
Every parent is potentially a foe, and you never know when they are going to reach the "dissatisfied" level, as my QB's father did in my example above. Of course you should work for the support of the parents, but you should also keep them at a bit of a distance as well. You can't trust them or count on them.
Experience has taught me that it is a mistake to do so.
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Post by fatkicker on Feb 12, 2009 10:44:52 GMT -6
my boy is only 3.......i hope i don't become that insane parent one day....
how can i cuss myself out for not giving my son enough playing time? will that mean that i'd be mad at myself?
maybe i could be vice president of the booster club.........sit in on meeting and talk about the coaches like i'm not one of 'em....
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Post by brophy on Feb 12, 2009 11:03:37 GMT -6
I wonder if its human nature to reduce everything to 2 choices: yes or no, good or evil, up or down, left or right.
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Post by mitch on Feb 12, 2009 11:21:34 GMT -6
my boy is only 3.......i hope i don't become that insane parent one day.... how can i cuss myself out for not giving my son enough playing time? will that mean that i'd be mad at myself? .. Your wife will do all that for you ;D
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