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Post by coachinghopeful on Dec 23, 2008 14:59:16 GMT -6
As I've been watching the HS playoffs from other states on Fox College Sports, I just can't help but wonder why New Jersey can't have a playoff/ championship system like some of the other states (Texas, Michigan, Florida, etc). In New Jersey, 20... TWENTY High School Football teams are crowned State Champions. There's 16 Public School Champs based on Enrollment (Group 1 being the group with smallest enrollment to Group 4) and Location (North Jersey I, North Jersey II, Central Jersey, South Jersey). There's Four more Champions crowned as the Non-Public (Parochial/Private) Schools are crowed by groups, no matter what location they're in. In other words: -5 Group 1 Champions (NJI, NJII, CJ, SJ, NP) -5 Group 2 Champions (Same) -5 Group 3 Champions (Same) -5 Group 4 Champions (Same) Proponents of Single Group Champions wants is to play 2 more playoff games withing the Public Groups so that they can play down to Single Champs. But the fans of the current systems says that playing down to a single champion would cut into the Thanksgiving Game, which is the final regular season game for most schools that cuts into the playoffs. And it also cuts into the winter seasons. Then when you mention sensible alternatives, they come up with the classic, "Who gives a f### about a single champion??? Let all of these kids be champs and that's that!!!!" And I haven't even touched the fact that most Public School officials don't want anything to do with the Non-Public Schools (Don Bosco Prep, Bergen Catholic, St Josephs-Montvale, St. Joseph's-Hammonton, St. Peter's, Camden Catholic, etc), allow the mingling of the Publics/Non-Publics in the playoffs like most other states. THAT'S a whole other issue. Now you see why NJ HS Football is a big ole Cluster-F###!!! . Shame because there's some pretty good football played in NJ and IMO, the kids deserves to play down to a Single State Champion like other states. Oh Well..... Anyone else is in a state where the HS Playoff System is worse??? I don't mind keeping the public/privates seperate in the playoffs. We do that in TN now, because Brentwood Academy was dominating year in and out by recruiting from other schools/states. But yeah... 20 champions sucks. TN's system, which got a major overhaul this year and could really make the playoffs confusing, was superficially ok. 5 classes for public schools, 1 class for private, with each playing for a single state champ within their classification. All that's fine. HOWEVER, the lame thing was a rule on the books that said that the top 4 teams from every conference make the playoffs (#1 & #2 host the first round, while #3 & #4 travel). We had some conferences with 9 or 10 teams, while others had as few as 5. You'd get all these weird matchups where a 9-1 or 10-0 team would play their first round game against a 1-9 or 2-8 team while a bunch of 6-4 or 5-5 teams got left out in the cold. Teams with 2-8 or 3-7 records sometimes got to host. That sucked. Now we've gone to this weird hybrid system for 2009 with 3 classes for public school football in the regular season, but then breaking that up into 6 classes for the playoffs. I like the 3 classes because, at least locally, it saves travel costs and restores a lot of old rivalries we used to have under a 3 class system that had been destroyed. I like the 6 classes because it helps to keep the biggest schools from dominating the state year in and out. Playoff seeding looks like a nightmare waiting to happen, though. At least we don't have VA's system. I live near the TN/VA state line. God knows how many "State Champions" they have (I think they also have a "regional" system, where you get "Group I-AA state champions, Group II-AA state champions" etc.), and playoff seeding is solely determined by an incomprehensible computer ranking that combins wins and losses with strength of schedule, margin of victory, etc . Imagine if the NCAA picked determined the BCS teams based solely on, say, the Sagarin ratings. That's how VA runs their whole system! In VA, you still see winning teams getting left out while ones with losing records get in because they were good at not getting beat too badly by highly rated teams. Plus, most games are played at neutral sites, which may or may not be that geographically close to either of the schools playing in them. Try explaining that to your players why a team with a worse record, who they just beat a few weeks ago, gets to host a playoff game while their season is done. That's got to suck.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Dec 23, 2008 15:24:35 GMT -6
PA's system is great, but at the same time it SUCKS because the private catholic schools get to participate in the playoffs. Not that I am putting them down, but man, when you can recruit it makes all the difference. Puts the public schools (especially the smaller ones) on the back burner. I'd like to see this policy changed: I would like any school that is in PA and is a privat school with open enrollment be an automatic 4A school. That would help. Sounds like you guys would have the perfect system if they'd just give the privates their own classification. TN has that with Div 1 (public schools) and Div 2 (private schools). It's the "Brentwood Academy rule." Now, it's very hard on most of the other private schools, which are very spread out geographically, affiliated with local churches, and struggle to pay the bills, which means no recruiting budget. Outside of the 3 biggest cities (Memphis, Nashville, and Knoxville) they're non-factors in athletics. The only time they get a top athlete is when the kid comes from a very religious upbringing or he's been kicked out of public schools. Most of them can't even afford football--I think only about 25 even field teams statewide--so it's always the same 2 or 3 elite private schools who win Div. 2 state.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 16:40:48 GMT -6
I can't speak for other states, but I don't think separate classifications for private schools would be in ILs best interest. As it stands now, we have 8 classes. Technically, there are no enrollment classes in the regular season although most schools will know what class they'll be in for postseason. Everyone who wins 5 or more games is postseason eligible. A few 5-4 teams will not make the playoffs due to lack of ponts--points are simply the total number of wins your 9 opponents have.
After determining who the 256 teams are, the smallest 32 are Class A, the next 32 or 2A, and so forth. I really like the IL system actually. It is an easy formula that is not computer based at all. And, the schedule is simple. The championship games are always played Thanksgiving weekend, so the regular season opener is fourteen weeks before that. Totally avoids multiple-game weeks.
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newhc
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Post by newhc on Dec 23, 2008 17:30:17 GMT -6
NC has 4 classifications 1A - 4A and Each Classification is split into a Big and Small or 1A-1AA and 2A-AA and so on. So you end up with 8 state champions.
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Post by rpetrie on Dec 23, 2008 17:40:28 GMT -6
Needless to say, no situation is best. I'm originally from VA, and liked the system in place there. Now I live/coach in Long Island, NY..and as someone already posted the NY City & Long Island schools don't even participate in the state playoff system. Not sure also about all Buffalo area schools as well. So the vast majority of the state's population is not involved. The problem is because the state will not budge on its enrollment breakdown. LI has on 6-7 schools that will compete in the lower 3 levels of classification (B, C & D)...out of 110 programs (54 in Section 11/Suffolk County & 56 in Section 8/Nassau County) . Why would they go for it when they basically already play themselves for championships? Their answer...while a nice set up...is not really better. They have a Long Island Championship with 4 divisions (based on enrollment again) with 12-14 teams per division, but only play 8 of them in regular season games. So in essence you can win your division and go to the playoffs without playing 40% of the competition. Schedules are set through a pre-season power ranking so manipulation of who plays who is a factor sometimes...Sandbagging in other words...RIDICULOUS IMO!!! The winners of the 2 sections on Long Island play each other for the Long Island Championships. It is a huge cash cow, creates great excitement ON LONG ISLAND...but really does nothing for helping create a true state playoff system or answer the state debate as to what football is better..upstate or downstate. So in essence there is are 4 Long Island Champions, 3-4 downstate Parochial champions, and 4 New York State Champions (upstate). NYC...left out period. A complete embarrasment. Privates should never compete against publics with restricted enrollments...PERIOD! Different circumstances that aren't comparable. If they want to schedule a non-league/divisional game..fine. Its like DI-AA nonscholarship schools trying to compete with Appalachain State, Richmond, etc...just can't be done. If you want to see a pretty good system getting potentially messed up check out what is going on the Virginia. Imagine the scheduling nightmare this would cause for perennial contenders. virginiapreps.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=866450
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Post by toprowguy on Dec 23, 2008 19:28:27 GMT -6
New Jersey by far but I think California's playoff system is similiar to NJ's.
Some other poor parts of NJ's are if you don't make the playoffs your team plays another nonplayoff team in a game at the same time as the 1st round of the playoffs.
The first two rounds of the playoffs take place than you play the final regular season game on Thanksgiving and than the finals are played the following week.
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Post by ticobrown on Dec 24, 2008 21:16:03 GMT -6
Not to pile on, but NJ is even worse. The 5 different divisions of 6 different groups does not account for the preps (Blair Academy, Lawrenceville, Peddie, Hun, etc.) that crown their own champion as well. Forgot about the Prep Schools. Make that 21 Champs in NJ, lol.
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Post by spartancoach on Dec 25, 2008 6:49:47 GMT -6
and that is in a state that you can drive from top to bottom in about 2 hours!!
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Post by ticobrown on Dec 28, 2008 14:19:12 GMT -6
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Post by wingtol on Dec 28, 2008 16:16:30 GMT -6
The more I read some of these setups for playoffs the more my head hurts LOL It's amazing how complicated some of them are and how teams make it. Kind of makes me happy to have a nice simple system that is easy to understand and for the most part works out great.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2008 16:21:11 GMT -6
I feel the same way about IL's.
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Post by 65tosspowertrap on Dec 30, 2008 14:30:01 GMT -6
NY - Monsignor Martin teams in Buffalo, have no state playoffs...you play league playoffs and that is it.
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Post by dtackle74 on Jan 8, 2009 9:28:41 GMT -6
MA has 13 state champions, and NJ has 20?!?! Holy crap that's a lot. I thought Illinois was bad with 8, but man...after reading about the contrived and arbitrary systems in other states ours seems pretty good. Win 6 or more you're in, 5 wins takes you to a lottery based on playoff points (opponents combined wins). It means somewhere around half the teams in the state make the playoffs, not counting the Chicago Public League schools that have their own playoff.
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Post by bigdog2003 on Jan 8, 2009 10:41:23 GMT -6
SC has 6 public school champions, two in 1A and 4A, they divide them into two divisions and one in 2A and 3A each. I am not sure about private schools here, they have their own association called scisa. I think they have four champions 1A-3A and 8 man.
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Post by coachsample on Jan 8, 2009 12:36:54 GMT -6
Of all of the ones I've seen and studied, New Jersey by far has the worst.
I think we(Georgia) have one of the simpler systems. Public Schools and select Private Schools are divided into 5 classes, each class has 8 regions. Top 4 from each go to to 32 team state playoffs, higher seed hosts all the way to the State Championship, any seed ties go to coin flip. So we get 5 State Champs. Private School Association has 3 Champs. So that's 8 Champions for somewhere around 500 schools.
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Post by coachnichols on Jan 9, 2009 11:15:24 GMT -6
I am not sure how it is now, but Kansas used to have a terrible system. Only your last three games counted toward a playoff and the best team of the three got in. That means there would be teams at 9-1 have a bad game and not go to the playoffs. That's how it used to be. I'm not sure when (couldn't have been more than 10 years ago or so) they changed it. Now the 2 best teams in your 4 team district go to the playoffs. So yes, with 32 teams in 6A football, half of them go to the playoffs. HALF of the states teams get to go to the playoffs. It's better than it was of course, but it kind of reminds me of division 1 football and bowl games. What were there this year, 32 bowl games? 64 teams out of 120 are good enough to go to a bowl?
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