|
Post by ticobrown on Dec 21, 2008 15:17:45 GMT -6
As I've been watching the HS playoffs from other states on Fox College Sports, I just can't help but wonder why New Jersey can't have a playoff/ championship system like some of the other states (Texas, Michigan, Florida, etc). In New Jersey, 20... TWENTY High School Football teams are crowned State Champions. There's 16 Public School Champs based on Enrollment (Group 1 being the group with smallest enrollment to Group 4) and Location (North Jersey I, North Jersey II, Central Jersey, South Jersey). There's Four more Champions crowned as the Non-Public (Parochial/Private) Schools are crowed by groups, no matter what location they're in. In other words: -5 Group 1 Champions (NJI, NJII, CJ, SJ, NP) -5 Group 2 Champions (Same) -5 Group 3 Champions (Same) -5 Group 4 Champions (Same) Proponents of Single Group Champions wants is to play 2 more playoff games withing the Public Groups so that they can play down to Single Champs. But the fans of the current systems says that playing down to a single champion would cut into the Thanksgiving Game, which is the final regular season game for most schools that cuts into the playoffs. And it also cuts into the winter seasons. Then when you mention sensible alternatives, they come up with the classic, "Who gives a f### about a single champion??? Let all of these kids be champs and that's that!!!!" And I haven't even touched the fact that most Public School officials don't want anything to do with the Non-Public Schools (Don Bosco Prep, Bergen Catholic, St Josephs-Montvale, St. Joseph's-Hammonton, St. Peter's, Camden Catholic, etc), allow the mingling of the Publics/Non-Publics in the playoffs like most other states. THAT'S a whole other issue. Now you see why NJ HS Football is a big ole Cluster-F###!!! . Shame because there's some pretty good football played in NJ and IMO, the kids deserves to play down to a Single State Champion like other states. Oh Well..... Anyone else is in a state where the HS Playoff System is worse???
|
|
|
Post by bucksweepdotcom on Dec 21, 2008 16:10:11 GMT -6
NY... Long Island and City do not take part. So over half the states population does not particate.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Dec 21, 2008 17:50:48 GMT -6
Naahhh!
I agree... your system sucks... ;D
|
|
|
Post by waltflanagansdog on Dec 21, 2008 17:58:10 GMT -6
Massachusetts used to. They didn't have a playoff system. Picked 2 teams to be in the "Super Bowl".
|
|
|
Post by barrons01 on Dec 21, 2008 18:35:26 GMT -6
I coach high school football and i agree that the system does suck. I know there have been people trying to get it changed and it just has not happened. I wouldnt even mind if there was a parochial and a public school champion but there needs to be something. We also only have 8 regular season game. We start so late. We should start earlier and have at least two more regular season games.
|
|
|
Post by devilsadvocate on Dec 21, 2008 18:38:35 GMT -6
DING! DING! DING! Ticobrown is the winner! That appears to be a screwed up system just from a first glance. A few questions though: 1) What are the ranges in enrollment that classify teams? 2) How many playoff games are played to determine a state champion? 3) What determines who makes the playoffs?
There is large a percentage folks in Kentucky who badmouth our 6 classification system, based on male student population. Probably wouldn't be such an uproar if we didn't take the top four teams from each baseline grouping (we call them 'districts'). The first two rounds match 1 seed to a 4 seed. There are some disturbing scores in those matchups a lot of times. We used to be 4 classes, but the public/private issue forced our state athletic association to make some type of change, and now we have six classes. Of course, if you are in 4 team district, you know you are making the playoffs---whether you win a game all year or not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2008 19:09:30 GMT -6
California
divided into 10 sections, geographically. each section does their own playoff system, each section crowns several section champions. this ranges from 1 champion for the really small sections (oakland, san francisco), los angeles sort of has two champions....while the southern section (biggest section in the state) crowns something like 13 champions, for various divisions. the rest are usually around 4-7 champions each section, generally catagorized by enrollment. I believe there is something like 40 section champs throughout the state.
for like 90 years there was no state championship..you win your section title and that's it.
couple years ago they implemented a bowl system, where each of the section champs are eligible to be selected for. a committee of the section commishioners meets at the end of the section playoffs and picks teams for the 5 bowl games - the best team from northern cal vs the top socal team. divisions based on enrollment except for an open division which just takes the top team regardless of size (this is like the true state title game). private and public schools compete together in both section playoff and state bowl games...all male schools have their enrollment figures doubled so they compete against fair competitiion.
so we crown 5 state champs, no playoff system. for the most part the southern california teams have been beating up on the northern california teams, so its possible that they might tweak the system in the future.
although obviously texas' system works ok, CA's system isnt that bad for a state this big...i think the most number of games played was 15 games, the title games were just played yesterday and friday.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Dec 21, 2008 20:01:00 GMT -6
Dang NJ sounds like a district or region title not a state title. Seems in a state that size it would be easy to have a state wide playoff. There are what about 400 schools playing football and they have 20 state champs. Thats, no offense, stupid. We have about 600 playing for 4. System seems to work well here in PA.
|
|
|
Post by DLine06 on Dec 21, 2008 20:41:32 GMT -6
I don't like Texas's system. I wish the UIL would use a 96 team format like basketball and baseball. The district champs would get a bye week and you start the season a week back or play 9 regular season games. We would then get one true state champ and, could even host all state title games in one stadium over a Friday and Saturday in December. But the UIL would never do that because: (1) That idea sounds a bit too intelligent for the UIL (2) The UIL gets 15% from gate sales ($$$$) However Texas could be a lot worse
|
|
|
Post by ayziggyzoomba on Dec 21, 2008 22:01:29 GMT -6
Indiana has 5 classes, and everybody gets into the playoffs. 9 week regular season and 6 weeks of playoffs. 3 unseeded, blind draw games for sectional championships, followed by regional, semi-state, and state finals. Class determined by population. Massive disparity exists in the top class where some Indianapolis schools are 5A and have more boys in school than the entire student population than lower 5A schools. P/P and open enrollment schools have no multiplier or adjustment. Indianapolis schools and p/p's win championships more often than not. We have just over 300 football playing high schools in the state. Just listing facts to see out of state perspectives on our system.
|
|
|
Post by CoachCP on Dec 21, 2008 22:53:23 GMT -6
I've coached in Illinois and Indiana, and Indiana is a bit ridiculous. I hate that every team gets it, and as mentioned by Ziggy, the classes have a lot of disparity.
But, that being said, the New Jersey system sounds way screwed up.
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on Dec 22, 2008 9:07:26 GMT -6
I am not sure how it is now, but Kansas used to have a terrible system. Only your last three games counted toward a playoff and the best team of the three got in. That means there would be teams at 9-1 have a bad game and not go to the playoffs.
|
|
pbids
Freshmen Member
Posts: 67
|
Post by pbids on Dec 22, 2008 9:28:06 GMT -6
The Thanksgiving games are played before the state sectional games in NJ anyway. So they cut into the state championships. I played and coach in NJ and we lost 2 players to injuries for the state game during a stupid Thanksgiving game that meant nothing to us.
Back to the subject... NJ has 2 playoff games before the state games which makes it a round of 8 teams in each section. Not too long ago (I think '97) there only used to be 4 teams that made it to the playoffs. So you can basically have 1 one loss and very possibly not make the playoffs. SO they extended the number of teams.
It is very easy for NJ to have a state champion for each group. But the season would need to begin before school starts because it would cut into the winter sports season.
Let's take a group 1 section 1 team for example. They would need to win their 2 playoff games and then the section championship. After that they would play the winner of the section 2 championship. Then they would play the winner of the Central and South Jersey Group 1 game. The winner of that would be the state champion.
I think it's a great idea and it would make the state a ton of money (since they get all the money from state games). The only problem is that it would cut into winter sports and the holiday break. If everyone started the season at week 0 (what it's called in NJ when you play a week early instead of Thanksgiving) they could play the state sectionals on The weekend of Thanksgiving and the week after. And play the final game 2 weeks later. School would still be in session and it wouldn't cut into the holidays
|
|
|
Post by FlexboneOne on Dec 22, 2008 9:36:03 GMT -6
PA's system is great, but at the same time it SUCKS because the private catholic schools get to participate in the playoffs. Not that I am putting them down, but man, when you can recruit it makes all the difference.
Puts the public schools (especially the smaller ones) on the back burner. I'd like to see this policy changed: I would like any school that is in PA and is a privat school with open enrollment be an automatic 4A school. That would help.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Dec 22, 2008 10:56:45 GMT -6
PA's system is great, but at the same time it SUCKS because the private catholic schools get to participate in the playoffs. Not that I am putting them down, but man, when you can recruit it makes all the difference. Puts the public schools (especially the smaller ones) on the back burner. I'd like to see this policy changed: I would like any school that is in PA and is a privat school with open enrollment be an automatic 4A school. That would help. You know out of 80 state champs since the state wide playoffs started there have been 9 private school champs. Thats it. Now in other sports it's different but football has had 9 private schools win it all. As far as the smaller schools those are the classes where the public schools have dominated most of the privates that won were AAAA or AAA.
|
|
|
Post by FlexboneOne on Dec 22, 2008 11:31:49 GMT -6
PA's system is great, but at the same time it SUCKS because the private catholic schools get to participate in the playoffs. Not that I am putting them down, but man, when you can recruit it makes all the difference. Puts the public schools (especially the smaller ones) on the back burner. I'd like to see this policy changed: I would like any school that is in PA and is a privat school with open enrollment be an automatic 4A school. That would help. You know out of 80 state champs since the state wide playoffs started there have been 9 private school champs. Thats it. Now in other sports it's different but football has had 9 private schools win it all. As far as the smaller schools those are the classes where the public schools have dominated most of the privates that won were AAAA or AAA. You cannot point just to championships that were won. The playoff rankings are affected. Private school A can recruit from anywhere (open pool of kids), public school B can't (static pool). How is that in any way a fair shake for making the cut for playoffs? Open enrollment=non-level playing field. It is what it is.
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Dec 22, 2008 12:01:30 GMT -6
Wisconsin's system puts schools into 6 divisions, each division has it's own championship.
Division you are put into is determined by enrollment. City schools get absolutely hammered every year.
Some bad teams make it to the playoffs too. We always seem to have a .500 CITY team playing the #1 ranked team in the state in the first round.
Can you imagine in college, a .500 Div III team playing Oklahoma?
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Dec 22, 2008 12:01:55 GMT -6
You know out of 80 state champs since the state wide playoffs started there have been 9 private school champs. Thats it. Now in other sports it's different but football has had 9 private schools win it all. As far as the smaller schools those are the classes where the public schools have dominated most of the privates that won were AAAA or AAA. You cannot point just to championships that were won. The playoff rankings are affected. Private school A can recruit from anywhere (open pool of kids), public school B can't (static pool). How is that in any way a fair shake for making the cut for playoffs? Open enrollment=non-level playing field. It is what it is. Just saying it's not like they are dominating. The district I work in has open enrollment, one school here has become a power house in the state cause of it. No one seems to care. I coach at a A private school, went 5-5 this year not to many complaints about us recruiting this year.
|
|
billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
|
Post by billyn on Dec 22, 2008 21:05:09 GMT -6
Craziest thing in Kansas is that you play your last regular season game on a Thursday, your first playoff game on the following Tuesday, and your second playoff game on Saturday. So, your playing 3 games in a 10 day stretch.
|
|
|
Post by coachbdud on Dec 22, 2008 22:54:32 GMT -6
CA is worst by far... a committee decided who plays in the games, so teams always complain when they dont get in. there is an open bowl now for overall best team regardless of enrollment that gets a little fuzzy...
and the enrollment of Norcal Schools vs SoCals schools is ridiculous. the enrollment cut offs are so much higher for the Socal schools. last year in one of the divisions the socal school beat the norcal school but the socal scholl had over 1,000 more kids... its all messed up and the bowl games are always in Socal... the entire set up favors the Socal schools
|
|
|
Post by coachjaz on Dec 22, 2008 23:34:22 GMT -6
Wisconsin does this too.
|
|
|
Post by lionhart on Dec 22, 2008 23:42:16 GMT -6
tico, we suck big time here. our system is rediculous. you guys are right, we DONT have any "state" champs.... we have "sectional" champs. absolutely absurd considering you only need 2 more weeks of football to settle the whole thing. add to that the fact that each team has a BYE week for cryin out loud, and our state champs still have only played a total of 12 games. im embarrassed for our state. ................. to answer another question, our group sizes are roughyl as follows <500=group1 , 501-800=group2 , 801-1100=group3 , 1101 and up=group4. teams qualify based on a power point system. you earn points based on the size of the school you beat and how many wins that team has. so if you beat a group 3 team with 4 wins, you earn oduble the group size (6 pts) plus 4 residual points for a total of 10 points. the top 8 teams from each section qualify for the tournament, provided they have a .500 record or better.
|
|
pbids
Freshmen Member
Posts: 67
|
Post by pbids on Dec 23, 2008 9:41:17 GMT -6
to answer another question, our group sizes are roughyl as follows <500=group1 , 501-800=group2 , 801-1100=group3 , 1101 and up=group4. teams qualify based on a power point system. you earn points based on the size of the school you beat and how many wins that team has. so if you beat a group 3 team with 4 wins, you earn oduble the group size (6 pts) plus 4 residual points for a total of 10 points. the top 8 teams from each section qualify for the tournament, provided they have a .500 record or better. And they only count your 1st 8 games toward points which hurts some teams trying to pick up points later on in the season.
|
|
|
Post by coachnicholson on Dec 23, 2008 10:10:17 GMT -6
I have never been one to buy into the argument that private schools have a great advantage over public schools. A question about this matter:
How is a private school any different than a public school that has open enrollment? As far as I know, the choice of wheather to have open enrollment or not is made within each school district. Therefore, any complaints about not being able to draw from the same size talent pool as other schools should be directed right at the administration of that school district.
|
|
tarrant
Sophomore Member
Posts: 117
|
Post by tarrant on Dec 23, 2008 11:41:19 GMT -6
Usually it's the bigger city schools that are most affected. Open enrollment might not exist, but the district could have 6+ high schools that kids can openly choose to go to. For example here in Cincinnati there are 8 open high schools playing football and a handful of schools you can test into. you can go anywhere in the city. We also compete with 3 powerhouse private programs that compete at the highest level and at least 1 is perennially nationally ranked. Talent can get pretty slim when you have 3 powerhouses and a handful of smaller division private schools handpicking who they want, then the rest of the talent pool is spread out over many schools due to the way we set up the school system with each school specializing in a specific area beyond standard college prep.
I played in a school system which had open enrollment and i don't think it really helped nor hurt us. Although we did lose to a private school in the playoffs 1 of the 2 years we went when i was there =).
but after that little side track generally those who complain about it have the power to change it if the administration so wishes at least here in Ohio.
|
|
pbids
Freshmen Member
Posts: 67
|
Post by pbids on Dec 23, 2008 11:46:41 GMT -6
Most public schools can't accommodate open enrollment. Nor do they allow open enrollment for the safety of the kids in the town whose families are paying taxes in that town.
Sure a family can pay to send their kid to any school, public or private. It's usually not based on the idea of going their to play a sport. I don't think its the ability to get 1 or 2 guys from another town that argument is based on. It's the ability to get anyone from anywhere and as many as they want.
A lot of kids go to private school with the primary focus of playing football. They are also approached by many private school "recruiters/coaches" as early as 7th grade. Most recruited kids can't even afford to go to the school, but find a way through alumni sponsorships and other tricky ways. I've been in a few private school systems so I know it's not a myth.
Private school recruiting does hurt a lot of public programs by taking their best athletes away. Sometimes that 1 or 2 kids are all a school needs to be competitive. And they get recruited to a private school and sometimes barely see the field.
|
|
|
Post by coachnicholson on Dec 23, 2008 12:13:17 GMT -6
I have never been directly involved with a private school, so you can be sure that my views are not partial. I know that here in Ohio a kid must sit out 1 calander year if he/she transfers to another school district without establishing a bona fide residence within that district. According to the rules set forth by the OHSAA, even if a school has open enrollment, kids cannot transfer to and from those schools just for the sake of transfering without sitting the year out. Of course there are loop-holes in the rules, but everyone must abide by the same rules, even private schools. Also, any kid at any middle school can choose to attend any high school, be it public or private. Illegal recruiting goes on everywhere, not just in the private schools.
|
|
|
Post by lionhart on Dec 23, 2008 13:17:31 GMT -6
the problem of recruiting players has pretty much reached a boiling point here in jersey. it absolutely DOES affect competetive balance. there are many small towns who have public scool programs that compete in the group 1 or 2 range. (smallest enrollment) now, if that town has even ONE big time player. if he plays for the town school hw can drastically change their season. as we all know, success breeds success, so future kids would want to stay and play at their respective public school. now, if this biug-time player chooses to go to a regional parochial school (most parochial schools send scouts out to pee-wee games ALL OVER the region), he only increases the quality of the private while leaving the public school to wallow with its small-town squad. its to the point now where kids travel all over the state to go to high school. this was NEVER the case in new jersey. to take things a step further, these parochial schools have kdis from other STATES sometimes. don bosco prep, a national powerhouse, is located in norther NJ right near the New York state border. they often have players from new york state on their roster. and some parochial schools located near New York City have players from brooklyn, ny on their roster. i cant understand how you cannot view this as a competetive advaantage.... its as clear as day. if parochial team "A" is located in jersey city, NJ.. but has players from 25 different towns, and a couple of kids from New York City, plays a public school team from jersey city whose roster is made up of the kids in that neighborhood.... how is that fair? how is that NOT an advantage? these parochial teams have become basically all-star teams made up of kids from the entire state. they should only play each other within the state and then go find national games. don bosco coaches have agreed with this and have made a concerted effort to play out of state powers. some of the other parochial coaches would rather just rack up victories over vastly overmatched teams by 60 or 70 points and then stick out their chests and brag about theri won/lost record. ive been on staffs for BOTH parochial and public schools..... i understand how both sideds operate.
|
|
|
Post by airman on Dec 23, 2008 13:47:17 GMT -6
I do not like wisconsin's or minnesota's playoff system.
you have to play what amounts to 2 games in one week in wisconsin. you play thursday and then again on tuesday.
I also do not like the wussification wisconsin has went to. It used to be the confrence champion and runner up made the playoffs. now you have teams with losing records in the playoffs. you used to be able to play 10 games and then the playoffs now it is 9 games. playoffs used to be on the weekends not weeknights. playoffs were done before the conditions get crappy.
|
|
|
Post by spartancoach on Dec 23, 2008 14:27:47 GMT -6
Not to pile on, but NJ is even worse. The 5 different divisions of 6 different groups does not account for the preps (Blair Academy, Lawrenceville, Peddie, Hun, etc.) that crown their own champion as well.
|
|