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Post by bcurrier on Nov 29, 2008 21:38:06 GMT -6
Last spring, I listened to the Oregon strength & conditioning coach talk briefly about Oregon's decision to move conditioning to the start of their practices, right after the warm-up session, not saving it for the final piece as it has been done traditionally. I'm interested in hearing different coaches weigh-in on the question -- Do you schedule conditioning for the start or end of your practices? Why? How does that reflect your philosophy about the purpose for conditioning? And if you schedule it for the start of practice, how has that changed or impacted what you have the players do for conditioning?
Thanks in advance.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 21:47:01 GMT -6
I am betting you will get a majority of responses stating something to the effect that they have "eliminated" traditional conditioning, and use well organized, extremely high tempo practices to get the desired effect.
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Post by eickst on Nov 30, 2008 0:37:22 GMT -6
I am betting you will get a majority of responses stating something to the effect that they have "eliminated" traditional conditioning, and use well organized, extremely high tempo practices to get the desired effect. +1 |
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 30, 2008 0:43:27 GMT -6
We did our conditioning at the start of practice. If I was going to have a conditioning period a segment, I would definitely do it right out of the gate like that. Having said that, I would (hopefully will, someday) do away with a conditioning period and just get it in practice like coachd says.
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Post by CVBears on Nov 30, 2008 1:42:26 GMT -6
never had a conditioning period all season. never had a kid that was gassed.
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Post by bcurrier on Nov 30, 2008 2:08:22 GMT -6
coachd5085 and "ignorantrookie," with all due respect (sincerely)... perhaps I've attended too many clinics and watched too much college football, but those responses sound like b.s., hype, and jargon. I agree completely with the sentiment that the ideal is to structure practice in a way that reduces the need for a prolonged conditioning period. (Eliminate completely?!? Not so sure about that.) The question is how to accomplish it. I'm looking for some constructive input on the matter.
I've coached in just this one program for 20 years. Under previous regimes, we took the approach of coaching on the run and pushing tempo in practice to enhance conditioning, but we always had some kind of a conditioning period. Under our current head coach, practice moves like molasses, there's a ton of standing around and "instructing," and the offense often practices against air. This drives me nuts. So, I'm looking for some thoughtful input to a) approach our current head coach with, and b) to guide me as I prep to look for a head position of my own.
So, let me revise my question: What is your philosophy regarding in-season conditioning? And how do you implement it - what do you do to make it happen?
P.S. ignorant rookie: "...never had a kid that was gassed...?!?" What...do you coach in a conference where everybody "runs" the double wing and just saunters from the huddle to the LOS and back?
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 2:31:56 GMT -6
bc--
A few thoughts on the defensive side of the ball
first thing after stretch,warmup whatever....
PURSUIT drill. Work sideline pursuits, Work Screen Pursuits, Work Pass pursuits. Defensive staff positions themselves on the perimeter of the field so that they can judge. The Unit (first team, second team etc. ) does not get off the field until 100% effort is achieved. Then the next group goes.
Individual drills-
Fast paced. If lines are involved, make sure you have enough groups to limit the wait time. For example, a tackling drill with 8 players working on that position. Rather than having 2 lines facing each other ( 4 in each line) have 4 lines.
Extend running distances. Example, if you are doing some type of turnover drill, do it so that the players MUST scoop and SCORE, or Strip and then lead block...whatever. But rather than doing it on the 5 yard line, do it from the 15 or 20.
In ALL scrimmage type situations (Inside, Pass Skell, Team) operate on a double whistle. The first whistle signals the play over, the 2ND whistle (maybe two long blasts to distinguish) does not blow until ALL DEFENDERS have either gotten to the ball, or signficantly towards the last pylon if you are the backside corner.
Work Multiple huddles if possible. As soon as the defense is running (not walking, not jogging, but running) back from the last play, another offensive huddle should be at the line starting a cadence.
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 30, 2008 10:05:25 GMT -6
nice post d-
To offer one from the offensive side:
Team- perfect plays- run a play vs. air with coaches watching fundamentals. They have to execute their assignment then sprint 10 yards. If everybody gets it right move the ball up 10 yards and repeat, if somebody messes up, replay it from that spot. You can have more than one group going.
Also, we set up saq type and other skill stations and have the players rotate thru them for conditioning. Pro agility, bags, ladder drills, sleds, cone drills, the options are almost infinite. But each coach takes a station, split the team up between them and as soon as they finish one they rotate to the next. I like this because it keeps everybody (coaches included) involved and beats the crap out of lining up and sprinting 40 yards.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 10:31:29 GMT -6
ut--- I completely forgot about agilities. You could probably get much of the conditioning needs done with that alone.
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Post by phantom on Nov 30, 2008 11:04:26 GMT -6
Last spring, I listened to the Oregon strength & conditioning coach talk briefly about Oregon's decision to move conditioning to the start of their practices, right after the warm-up session, not saving it for the final piece as it has been done traditionally. I'm interested in hearing different coaches weigh-in on the question -- Do you schedule conditioning for the start or end of your practices? Why? How does that reflect your philosophy about the purpose for conditioning? And if you schedule it for the start of practice, how has that changed or impacted what you have the players do for conditioning? Thanks in advance. I believe that conditioning is more of a mental thing than physical. I agree with those who say that a good practice is conditioning enough physically. That said we do 10 Perfect on Tuesday (offensive day. We do not platoon.) and gassers on Wednesday (defensive day). The point is not physical conditioning. It's mental. We want them to be able to dig deep when they need it. |
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Post by dc207 on Nov 30, 2008 14:12:06 GMT -6
Our 'conditioning' this year was nonexistent compared with 2007, and against the top-level teams we wore down in the second half. Out of five playoff teams we faced in the regular season, we were outscored in three of them in the second half and clearly the more tired team after halftime.
I am not a fan of the 'fast-paced practice eliminates the need for conditioning'. I am sure it works for some people, but we still have some kids who don't work out in the off-season, and to me the conditioning piece helps catch them up, particularly early in the season.
A nearby school (which does get a high number of athletes, mind you) does a 20-minute conditioning/agility session at the beginning of every practice and then 10 100-yard sprints at the end. One of our coaches used to help out there, and he said after three weeks those kids are looking at the coach like, "Anything else?" They ALWAYS are fast and aggressive as hell, I know there are other factors but that type of tone set early I think has positive results.
Wish we would've done that from day one, or at least something to that effect. Might still be playing.
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Post by CVBears on Nov 30, 2008 21:01:53 GMT -6
bcurrier- sure at the end of the game kids are tired and feel like they just played a football game. They probably couldn't go run a marathon or anything, but my point is, since we implemented the practice of not running gassers/wind sprints/etc., there was no lack of conditioning, in fact our level of conditioning, and play, has improved. We never got into the fourth quarter and said, "wow, we need to condition more" or " we don't have the gas to keep playing right now."
and it isn't so much a commitment to not condition as it is a commitment to make everything we do directly related to skill development. We do a lot of the things coach5085 suggests... two huddles in group time, team tackling with two whistles. Since this was a commitment during our practice time to keep the tempo high our coaches monitored the tempo and playing time was earned or lost at any time during practice, for any drill. If we were working on punt return, we would have as many scout punt huddles as we possibly could; kickoff return had as many scout kickoff teams as possible. We'd run tackling circuits at the beginning of practice, sometimes at the end of practice. We'd put our kids through situations (down by 13, 5min left on clock, etc.). Scout team vs 1's always had something on the line (updowns/pushups/whatever) for a three and out or a first down. If our kids accomplished everything that we needed to get done in that day we'd have a competition of fat and slow vs fast and go with as many groups as possible (every body runs a fade, coaches throw, 1 on 1's)(I know this one is a stretch but it was a reward for the hogs when the team did well at practice every once and a while); open field tackling competitions (winner moves the the left, loser to the right, the players at the highest level at the end didn't have any core to do that day while each group below did). When the sun was going down early/getting dark early, our HC told our QB, "get through this 20 play script before the sun goes down or you have a gasser after practice/coaches take care of ball inventory/whatever." Our team captains were onboard to help the coaches push/motivate the players as well (IMO this is a key component).
We took every drill we do and asked, "how can we get more players involved and more active/give everyone more reps?" Then we asked, "how can we make this more competitive?" and with playing time the ultimate reward for hard work, we saw some good results.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 22:45:14 GMT -6
Our 'conditioning' this year was nonexistent compared with 2007, and against the top-level teams we wore down in the second half. Out of five playoff teams we faced in the regular season, we were outscored in three of them in the second half and clearly the more tired team after halftime. I am not a fan of the 'fast-paced practice eliminates the need for conditioning'. I am sure it works for some people, but we still have some kids who don't work out in the off-season, and to me the conditioning piece helps catch them up, particularly early in the season. A nearby school (which does get a high number of athletes, mind you) does a 20-minute conditioning/agility session at the beginning of every practice and then 10 100-yard sprints at the end. One of our coaches used to help out there, and he said after three weeks those kids are looking at the coach like, "Anything else?" They ALWAYS are fast and aggressive as hell, I know there are other factors but that type of tone set early I think has positive results. Wish we would've done that from day one, or at least something to that effect. Might still be playing. Wow, that has to be 30 minutes of their practice time on conditioning. In a 2 hour practice, that is a full 25%... While I understand where you are coming from, I have to ask...how does running 10 sprints at the end of a practice really prepare a player to compete in 60-70 plays a game? I agree with what was stated earlier, that post practice conditioning is much more useful as a mental toughness exercise than a physical one. |
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Post by eickst on Nov 30, 2008 22:57:13 GMT -6
Well, I'd rather have my kids knowing what they are supposed to do and execute like robots than be able to run plays all day but screw them up.
One of my favorite lines that old school coaches like to say is that they won't "lose it in the second half" thanks to their conditioning. They are right. They'll lose it in the first half when my team comes out and beats your team on everything and I can slow the game down and sit on a lead in the second half.
Execution > Conditioning. Don't believe the Rocky movies. In real life he would have Parkinson's.
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 1, 2008 10:17:51 GMT -6
I will echo what the others have said about why we 'condition' at the beginning. We do a dynamic warm-up, then do SAQ, followed by 1s v. 1s in a team pass, before breaking into indy.
I would add this, when during the game are your most important reps? Usually in the first few minutes by setting the tone and also in the latter stages of the game when kids are tapping into their energy reserves.
The "conditioning" is for setting the tone early. Also, when we go team pass, everyone is sucking wind a little and they really have to have a mental edge to focus on execution. When do most of their mental mistakes take place? Usually when they are tired. By tiring them early in practice, the kids have to work on not just physically training during reps, they have to mentally focus on their reps. Now when it is nut cutting time, they have experienced being tired and having to perform at a high level.
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Post by eickst on Dec 3, 2008 20:29:13 GMT -6
I think another huge aspect of this discussion is what level you coach. I coach youth ball and I'll be damned if my 12 year olds aren't freakin playing another game of touch football behind the bleachers no later than 2 minutes after we walked off of the field.
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Post by robinhood on Dec 4, 2008 7:41:23 GMT -6
bccurrier:
There's nothing wrong with jargon. Almost all activities have terms which are specific to that activity. For example: BLITZ is a term specific to football defense. You use jargon everyday at practice.
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2008 7:59:42 GMT -6
Execution > Conditioning. Don't believe the Rocky movies. In real life he would have Parkinson's. - that was great! you really have to recognize what coachd5085 is bringing to the table here. Nuts and bolts aside, WHAT is it you want to accomplish?First and foremost, define the population....is it YOUTH? is it Middle school? Is it HS? Why are you wanting to devote time to this? Physical conditioning? where is / what is your off-season conditioning program been doing for the last 9 months? If you need to devote in-season PRACTICE time to accomplish this, then it would appear the off-season weights have been a waste of time Mental toughness a couple wind sprints in the Fall in my experience isn't going to magically give you team chemistry or determination. The real team toughness comes in hammering away when no immediate gratification can be met, that plugging away and putting in work is the equity that becomes too difficult to turn away from when the season starts. Many of the reasons we condition have nothing to do with "next year" (practice plans), but everything to do with RIGHT NOW (the off season). The Team building, conditioning, and mental toughness has much MORE to do with the off-season, than it does when the regular season starts. cue the 80's montage |
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mce86
Junior Member
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Post by mce86 on Dec 4, 2008 11:11:35 GMT -6
Plan segments in individuals to get conditioning in...
Whats the sense of my WR and Right Tackle doing the same conditioining at the end of practice?
Id rather do a 2 min hurry up drive for the last 5-10 minutes than do gassers!
Or run 4 quick plays and get the FG team on and off with no timeouts...
Anything FB related is great!
In my career, ive yet to see a player run at 75% from one sideline and back, and then from one sideline and back in X amount of time......
Think about this too....when your kids (or if u remember as a player) ended football season and went to play basketball...you were gassed; because you werent used to that "type" of running around...
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