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Post by outlawjoseywales on Nov 4, 2008 22:37:01 GMT -6
I've never coached children in football nor plan to, but thought I would ask this question.
Since we know from what little education I have, that weight lifting for children is useless until they start getting some testosterone going.
Is it also plausible that all this running and getting "in shape" that I see youth football players do, is equally as useless?
I know I've seen kids, we did the same-play for hours then ride their bikes for hours and never feel any pain from over use of muscles. This hours and hours of exercise has no effect on muscle development, it's just kids. We all know this.
If children can't get "in shape" then somebody is wasting a whole lot of time aren't they?
Not an important question here, just thought I'd ask the experts.
OJW
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Post by jhanawa on Nov 4, 2008 22:48:34 GMT -6
Your not going to build muscle mass on young kids, even if you could I don't think that should be a goal. I"m against weights with young kids, but you can certainly increase a kids stamina, decrease body fat and increase agility, speed etc....so yes, yo can get kids "in shape". As far as running and getting in shape, I prefer to condition through motor skill drills and football related drills as much as possible, regardless of age.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 5, 2008 0:04:46 GMT -6
I think aerobic training over anaerobic training can be somewhat counter productive in the off season for a football player. Not to say that some aerobic conditioning should take place, but in line with your observation, younger kids don't get out of shape as much and I believe that they condition quicker than people who are older.
Teens probably do not have the same resiliency as youths; however, it is my assumption that they can get into shape faster than a person in his late twenties and beyond.
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Post by eickst on Nov 5, 2008 0:35:45 GMT -6
While muscles may not become larger or stronger, the act of training/exercising at a young age helps with neuromuscular efficiency and also with coordination.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Nov 5, 2008 1:15:54 GMT -6
Anybody that uses "neuromuscular efficiency" in a sentence has got to know something. Thanks
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Post by coachdbs on Nov 5, 2008 8:45:12 GMT -6
Children may not be able to build muscle (lack of necessary hormones) but they can definitely build strength. Does that mean you thrown them in the squat rack and start loading the bar...no but starting with proper technique using bodyweight exercises is a great way to get them started. My son is 8 and we do things like pushups,pullups,bodyweight squats, OH squats w/pvc pipe, etc. As he matures, we will begin to add weight. When his fball team does squats...he is by far the most flexible with the best technique. It is sad to see 8-year old boys already struggling with limited range of motion....too many damn video games!!!
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Post by btincup on Nov 5, 2008 10:43:09 GMT -6
YES.....In my earlier days of coaching I have seen some children come out for football that are seriously overweight. Dad figures there big so football O Line is where they should be.
By end of season if these boys stick with it they have lost the fat and are in much better shape.
When we talk about getting in shape we should also include the mental portion of conditioning. I have noticed a big difference in attitude and confidence as the season progresses.
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Post by angryman27909 on Nov 5, 2008 11:08:48 GMT -6
training kids helps with mental health. many studies have showed that after 12 weeks of exercises kids and adults have higher levels of serotonin thats improves neurological brain link(Nero transmitters) and over all brain health, this means better attitudes and focus in kids. also after a 12 week time of training kids are 30 times happier than those on anti-depressants, Ritalin and many other med. training in any sport does more then just engage the body. with a sound philosophy and reward system training is the best psychiatric tool to develop kids into good citizens, clarify values, created and realistic expectations that are Nero- condition and physically conditioned in them. now all i have to go is get psychologist and parents to get this so they stay off out football fields.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 5, 2008 11:14:23 GMT -6
You need to focus on building the aerobic energy system of youth before you start taxing their anerobic-glycolysis and CP energy systems.
All three of these energy systems run concurrently during bouts of exericse, just with one of the three running more than the others. However, the ability to carry oxygen to the tissue, use it for energy, and to carry waste products (lower the inter-muscle PH) away from the muscles rely on a strong aerobic energy system. Anerobic exercise produces a lot of waste bi-products; if the child's circulatory system is underdeveloped because of a lack of aerobic exercise, those products will not be removed.
This doesn't mean that you send the kids on a 3 mile long run; it means that you use football specific training protocols, but lower the intensity and raise the duration.
The anerobioc abilitys of using glycogen and creatine phosphate for energy will always be underdeveloped in children as it is a function of growth and age. If you tax these two systems too much, a child will not be able to adapt, will overtrain and as such will digress in their training.
In conclusion, a training program for youth football needs to emphasize aerobic and aneraobic components, but the major stress should be on the aerobic energy system and THEN the anaerobic energy systems.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Nov 5, 2008 21:13:38 GMT -6
Wow CB, cool. I've always wondered if children could lose weight if they dieted. I recently found out that this is possible and as long as they are under medical attention, and contolled it has helped many obeise children. I asked about this "getting in shape" thing because I know that kids cannot develop their bodies with weights. I wondered if all of the sprints I've noticed youth programs doing was of any value. I've seen running used as something to do when coaches have no clue what THEY are doing. OK, all you brilliant people-listen up CB. What then is the limit or the accetable amount of sprints that a youth league team needs to be doing? You've proven that is has SOME effect on the abilities of youth football children, what is the limit and drop-off of value now. Thanks, very interesting. OJW
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Post by eickst on Nov 5, 2008 21:36:16 GMT -6
I think that a child can do very well with training, however, at the youth levels, or at least the leagues I have been involved with, practice time is too limited to spend on athletic development. You barely have enough time for football specific skills, and offense/defense/special teams. Adding in as much athletic stuff as you can in football specific drills is about as far as I think you can go.
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tedseay
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Post by tedseay on Nov 6, 2008 3:36:43 GMT -6
no but starting with proper technique using bodyweight exercises is a great way to get them started. My son is 8 and we do things like pushups,pullups,bodyweight squats, OH squats w/pvc pipe, etc. Absolutely correct, coach.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 7, 2008 10:40:53 GMT -6
Wow CB, cool. I've always wondered if children could lose weight if they dieted. I recently found out that this is possible and as long as they are under medical attention, and contolled it has helped many obeise children. I asked about this "getting in shape" thing because I know that kids cannot develop their bodies with weights. I wondered if all of the sprints I've noticed youth programs doing was of any value. I've seen running used as something to do when coaches have no clue what THEY are doing. OK, all you brilliant people-listen up CB. What then is the limit or the accetable amount of sprints that a youth league team needs to be doing? You've proven that is has SOME effect on the abilities of youth football children, what is the limit and drop-off of value now. Thanks, very interesting. OJW Children can lose weight; it really is all about burning more calories than you take in. With that being said; using the term "diet" with children is very bad news. Adults take dieting too far; kids will most assuredly do the same. Kids that "diet" are many times more likely to develop eating disorders. The best thing to help these kids is just to increase their physical activity and educate them and their parents on proper nutrition. The key here is to avoid giving them severly restricted nutritional plans; I have seen idiots trying to stick kids on lower-carb diets. Kids are growing, they need calories, they need carbs and fat. However, they just need to avoid the JUNK FOOD. If a child just replaces the juice and soda in their diets with water, they can cut calories dramatically; up to a 1,000 calories a day. With that being said, it's best to avoid teaching kids to cut calories; they (and their parents) will take it too far. Give them a long list of healthy food choices and meals. As far as high intensity wind sprints go; I'd avoid them entirely. The kids' bodies are not developed enough to generate that amount of energy through the PC system or through anerobis glycolysis. They are also not equipped for getting rid of the waste products. You run those sprints in the hope that the kids will develop their anerobic capacity; but they just don't have the tools to do so. We want to force a physiological adaption; all we get is a digression. I think the better answer is to spend that time doing aerobic training and lower intensity anaerobic exercise. Body weight exercises (such as those people have been describing) are great, as long as the kids aren't taking them past failure. Agility exercises and plyometrics would be good choices too; as long as the intensity isn't through the roof. Focus on motor learning and forcing neurological adaptions when they're younger. The kids will get a whole lot more out of it and they won't learn to hate physical activity.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2008 20:28:58 GMT -6
I agree with coachcb to a point..he's right about all out aerobic exercise like wind sprints all you usually get is kids that are tired and way too sore to play, however, you can dramatically increase their performance by increasing their Vo2 Max, (the efficiency rate at which the body uses oxygen). They key is interval training, sustained lower level intensity exercises (ex slow jog) with intervals of very high intensity exercise (sprint) in between. This causes the body to become more proficient using O2.
It also sends the metabolism into overdrive, whenrin weight loss and gains in lean muscle mass will be achieved
coach CB's dead on "diet" is a 4 letter word, ...it's a bad one unless you are dealing with an extemely overweight chid.
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 7, 2008 20:51:13 GMT -6
So what exercises are good for a kid age 10-13? Ladders? Plyometrics? Long distance running?
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Post by coachcb on Nov 7, 2008 23:59:57 GMT -6
I agree with coachcb to a point..he's right about all out aerobic exercise like wind sprints all you usually get is kids that are tired and way too sore to play, however, you can dramatically increase their performance by increasing their Vo2 Max, (the efficiency rate at which the body uses oxygen). They key is interval training, sustained lower level intensity exercises (ex slow jog) with intervals of very high intensity exercise (sprint) in between. This causes the body to become more proficient using O2. It also sends the metabolism into overdrive, whenrin weight loss and gains in lean muscle mass will be achieved coach CB's dead on "diet" is a 4 letter word, ...it's a bad one unless you are dealing with an extemely overweight chid. 1. Wind sprints are anerobic exercises; they are not aerobic. Any form of exercise that you cannot continue for longer than a minute utilizes anerobic glycolysis as it's primary energy source. 2.VO2 max is determined by genetics; you cannot influence it much through exercise or lack of exercise. Your body is anatomcially and physiologically limited in the volume of oxygen that you can take in and use. Factors such as percentage of slow twitch muscle and rib-cage diameter (among others) will establish VO2 max. Take my word for it (I have degrees in Health and Human Performance) or look it up.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Nov 8, 2008 0:46:49 GMT -6
Amazing stuff gentlemen.
All this evidence is amazing. My question though, is has there been any studies that prove that children can increase their stamina by exercise?
We know that it works with teens and adults or why else would we be coaching football.
However, has a study been done with children? If it has been, since CB knows this stuff, he will know.
Where I'm going here is to question the anacdotal evidence of children's exercise protocols. -Do sprints actually help children develop stamina?
Anecdotal evidence-"yes, they work because we do them."
Well do they really? Or do youth coaches just think the kids are getting in shape.
We know they can ride bikes endlessly, we all did that too. That has nothing to do with wind sprints.
Since so many people coach football to children, surely there is something out there in the world of exercise science to say if what the coaches are doing actually works.
OJW
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2008 6:59:27 GMT -6
I agree with coachcb to a point..he's right about all out aerobic exercise like wind sprints all you usually get is kids that are tired and way too sore to play, however, you can dramatically increase their performance by increasing their Vo2 Max, (the efficiency rate at which the body uses oxygen). They key is interval training, sustained lower level intensity exercises (ex slow jog) with intervals of very high intensity exercise (sprint) in between. This causes the body to become more proficient using O2. It also sends the metabolism into overdrive, whenrin weight loss and gains in lean muscle mass will be achieved coach CB's dead on "diet" is a 4 letter word, ...it's a bad one unless you are dealing with an extemely overweight chid. 1. Wind sprints are anerobic exercises; they are not aerobic. Any form of exercise that you cannot continue for longer than a minute utilizes anerobic glycolysis as it's primary energy source. 2.VO2 max is determined by genetics; you cannot influence it much through exercise or lack of exercise. Your body is anatomcially and physiologically limited in the volume of oxygen that you can take in and use. Factors such as percentage of slow twitch muscle and rib-cage diameter (among others) will establish VO2 max. Take my word for it (I have degrees in Health and Human Performance) or look it up. I beleive you coach I was a pre med guy myself...note that's as far as I went, though unless you count being a paramedic for 12 years, before getting into LE. I've never heard that genetics determine it , I wouldn't be suprised if it did though. ,That being said I've also never seen anyone who doesn't come more proficient (running for example) over time. Why does interval training work so well ?
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Post by coachcb on Nov 8, 2008 8:14:55 GMT -6
1. Wind sprints are anerobic exercises; they are not aerobic. Any form of exercise that you cannot continue for longer than a minute utilizes anerobic glycolysis as it's primary energy source. 2.VO2 max is determined by genetics; you cannot influence it much through exercise or lack of exercise. Your body is anatomcially and physiologically limited in the volume of oxygen that you can take in and use. Factors such as percentage of slow twitch muscle and rib-cage diameter (among others) will establish VO2 max. Take my word for it (I have degrees in Health and Human Performance) or look it up. I beleive you coach I was a pre med guy myself...note that's as far as I went, though unless you count being a paramedic for 12 years, before getting into LE. I've never heard that genetics determine it , I wouldn't be suprised if it did though. ,That being said I've also never seen anyone who doesn't come more proficient (running for example) over time. Why does interval training work so well ? Your not increasing the maximum amount of oxygen they can take in; you are increasing their ability to use the oxygen they do take in. Their musculature and circulatory system adapts and allows them to use the oxygen (and to get rid of carbon dixoide) more proficiently. Interval training works well because it allows the athlete to work at a higher pace for a longer period of time. It's a happy medium; the athlete can't run at 100% and develop their both their aerobic and anerobic energy systems. Instead; you ask them to run ay 80% (still anerobic) with some 50% periods tied in there; they are able to run longer. Intervals will allow the to develop both their ability to use glycogen for energy and to use oxygen for energy, all in one workout. Sorry about what seemed like the abrasiveness of the first post; needed to include a ;D. ;D OJW: yes, children can inprove their stamina, but wind sprints aren't the best way to do it. Coachkell's suggestion of interval training is fantastic; a Fartlek run is a great example of this.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 8, 2008 8:33:27 GMT -6
And the studies are there;many of them involve testing the intramuscular pH and lactic acid of the children after a a bout of hard anaerobic exercise. They find that these levels are through the roof; an indication that the body isn't getting rid of the products of this intense exercise.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2008 12:39:54 GMT -6
I beleive you coach I was a pre med guy myself...note that's as far as I went, though unless you count being a paramedic for 12 years, before getting into LE. I've never heard that genetics determine it , I wouldn't be suprised if it did though. ,That being said I've also never seen anyone who doesn't come more proficient (running for example) over time. Why does interval training work so well ? Your not increasing the maximum amount of oxygen they can take in; you are increasing their ability to use the oxygen they do take in. Their musculature and circulatory system adapts and allows them to use the oxygen (and to get rid of carbon dixoide) more proficiently. Interval training works well because it allows the athlete to work at a higher pace for a longer period of time. It's a happy medium; the athlete can't run at 100% and develop their both their aerobic and anerobic energy systems. Instead; you ask them to run ay 80% (still anerobic) with some 50% periods tied in there; they are able to run longer. Intervals will allow the to develop both their ability to use glycogen for energy and to use oxygen for energy, all in one workout. Sorry about what seemed like the abrasiveness of the first post; needed to include a ;D. ;D OJW: yes, children can inprove their stamina, but wind sprints aren't the best way to do it. Coachkell's suggestion of interval training is fantastic; a Fartlek run is a great example of this. Thank you coach, I've also found that it helps when we are runing no huddle as well.. I do have to ask what is the Fartlek run ?
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Post by coachcb on Nov 8, 2008 12:53:09 GMT -6
Here's an example:
Warmup: easy running for 5 to 10 minutes. Steady, hard speed for 1.5–2 km; like a long repetition. Recovery: rapid walking for about 5 minutes. Start of speed work: easy running interspersed with sprints of about 50–60 m, repeated until a little tired. Easy running with three or four "quick steps" now and then (simulating suddenly speeding up to avoid being overtaken by another runner). Full speed uphill for 175–200 m. Fast pace for 1 minute. The whole routine is then repeated until the total time prescribed on the training schedule has elapsed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2008 17:17:36 GMT -6
I like it..
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