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Post by ajreaper on Nov 2, 2008 10:04:34 GMT -6
Stonewall, the coach ordered the hit, as to why we may never know. The kicker is one of the best athletes to come out of Idaho in the last 5 years. This kid is legit. If that is the case it's obvious what this is about- get their best athlete when he is most vunerable and try to take him out. I guess this is classier then having comeone hit him across the shins with a metal rod when he gets off the bus- not much but a bit.
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Post by 29sweep on Nov 2, 2008 15:19:07 GMT -6
The head coach Harrison did order the hit on the kicker/QB and he was suspended for one game because of it. The retaliation hit was supposedly ordered by an assistant of Highland and he was suspended for one game too. Did he take the fall for the head coach Gino? We may never know that either. I appreciated the comments about this play because the people in Idaho have absolutely lost their minds over this and I wanted to hear opinion from reasonable coaches outside of Idaho's discussion boards.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 2, 2008 18:16:52 GMT -6
What are you saying?
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Post by wonderingcoach on Nov 2, 2008 19:54:56 GMT -6
Everyone is both right and wrong. Its not a cheap shot. He hit the kicker head on. The kicker is a football player. Yes I agree it may be mean, I wouldn't have my kids do it. But if its from the front during the action, fair game. Now, that being said... if there is a rule he can't be touched yet, then its illegal, but not cheap.
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Post by wonderingcoach on Nov 2, 2008 19:56:58 GMT -6
Of course, no Coach should ever use the phrase, take him out, or anything like it. Does no one learn from watching the Karate Kid? You can't sweep the leg.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Nov 2, 2008 19:58:54 GMT -6
It isn't cheap. Cheap is hitting a player when he isn't looking. Cheap is picking off a player around the pile. The kid hits the kicker dead in the front and high. It's illegal because it isnt' within the rules. At 5+ yards, that is a legal football play.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 2, 2008 20:04:51 GMT -6
tim--- i would say the kicker is NOT looking... At 5+ yards, the kicker has had time to LOOK. In this case..the kicker probably doesnt even see the hitter...and again, I ask, why is THIS the only kick coverage person to be blocked like this?
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Post by wonderingcoach on Nov 2, 2008 20:21:06 GMT -6
I actually would like to know why he is the only one blocked like this too? Anyone ever see a kick return, just go blast kids instead of dropping? Did it work?
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Post by coachorr on Nov 2, 2008 20:41:36 GMT -6
"Sweep the leg". Good one.
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Post by 29sweep on Nov 2, 2008 23:35:04 GMT -6
No, not all the Idaho coaches are crazy. In Idaho, people either hate or love coach Harrison, so most of the opinions made about him were biased one way or the other. That's why I wanted to hear what people here had to say. I was also wondering if this was a common strategy around the nation. I mean, have people seen this happen before?
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Post by coachorr on Nov 2, 2008 23:38:50 GMT -6
You can call me crazy, my wife does.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 21:37:59 GMT -6
As far as I can remember there was alwaays someone told to "kill the kicker".
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Post by jhanawa on Nov 3, 2008 23:48:16 GMT -6
What we do is not like in the video in anyway. We don't advance towards the kicking team, but wait at our original alignment depth. We'll attack with the front 5 on our wall return, the idea isn't to block them continuously, but to disrupt, reroute and slow them down a bit, then our 5 guys form a wall similiar to punt. Sometimes you'll get a big hit or decleater and create a voided lane. BYU used to run this in the early 90's....
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 9:40:34 GMT -6
yes coach..it is FOOTBALL. You are exactly right. And there is a PURPOSE in football. That purpose is NOT striking defenseless players. Had a criminal law professor advise us on the first day of class to never confuse what is legal, moral, and ethical, as they are often 3 different things. Legal in this case? Maybe so. Can't see any advantage in coaching a kid to hit a player like that, a kicker especially, who is performing a job that requires his head to be down, and who is generally one of the physically weaker players on the field. Any coach that did that to my kicker better advise the rest of his team that they better have their heads on a swivel until the faintest echo of the whistel has faded away!
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 9:44:35 GMT -6
guess I should have read the entire thread before responding...I agree after the 5 yards, he's fair game, and agree with the rule protecting him that way.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 4, 2008 9:44:57 GMT -6
As far as I can remember there was alwaays someone told to "kill the kicker". Why? ??
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Post by los on Nov 4, 2008 10:02:41 GMT -6
This was a "cheap shot" to me....the kid never had the chance to really "prepare to defend himself", while focusing on his follow thru during the kick.....whether it was on purpose or not....we can only guess? The difference between this and say.....a semi-defenseless punt return guy who gets hit while focusing on the ball.....the guy returning punts does have the "option", of signally a fair catch.....so its apples and oranges to me.
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 4, 2008 10:26:36 GMT -6
looks to me like the blocker was offsides.
To me, this is as cheap as a DE going offsides and hammering the QB.
Rules or not though, the kicker is in a vulnerable position and is not able to protect himself after the kick. As a coach, I would never instruct my players to do anything that has this type of potential to injure the other player...not matter what type of advantage it gives me.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 10:32:41 GMT -6
As far as I can remember there was alwaays someone told to "kill the kicker". Why? ?? So some kid of yours can build his self confidence by picking on the weakest player on the field?
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 4, 2008 10:54:38 GMT -6
Why? ?? So some kid of yours can build his self confidence by picking on the weakest player on the field? well, in coachkell's defense, I believe he is a youth coach. At the youth levels, the kicker is probably one of the better athletes on the field. It isn't until the larger H.S.'s and college levels that you find kids who might "just kick" and who are generally smaller than other players.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 11:01:10 GMT -6
So some kid of yours can build his self confidence by picking on the weakest player on the field? well, in coachkell's defense, I believe he is a youth coach. At the youth levels, the kicker is probably one of the better athletes on the field. It isn't until the larger H.S.'s and college levels that you find kids who might "just kick" and who are generally smaller than other players. Maybe so. Still don't see singling out any player on the other team to "kill". Be aware of, double team, etc...but back to the original post...It appeared to me to be cheap, and seems like it's illegal as well with the 5 yard rule.
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Post by btincup on Nov 4, 2008 11:40:41 GMT -6
NO CLASS ! but not a cheap shot. If your on the field your fair game until the whistle blows.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 11:43:55 GMT -6
NO CLASS ! but not a cheap shot. If your on the field your fair game until the whistle blows. According to the rule cited in the thread a "free kicker" isn't "fair game" until he's advanced 5 yards AFTER the kick. Same as roughing the punter if I understand the rule cited herein.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2008 12:45:12 GMT -6
As far as I can remember there was alwaays someone told to "kill the kicker". Why? ?? I'm not saying I tell my kids to do so , bt I remember in High school and college, there was always someone assigned to hit the kicker..I don't really know why, but we did. I guess the thought process was to rattle the kicker.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2008 12:49:58 GMT -6
Why? ?? So some kid of yours can build his self confidence by picking on the weakest player on the field? No perhaps you should read the post, before making assumptions ...I never said I advocate it, and I certainly don't use it, It was what we did in high school and college. While I think it's wrong morally , I don't see why it would be an illegl hit, but I'm also not 100% sure of the rule protecting kickers, like they protect punters..
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 4, 2008 14:16:48 GMT -6
So some kid of yours can build his self confidence by picking on the weakest player on the field? No perhaps you should read the post, before making assumptions ...I never said I advocate it, and I certainly don't use it, It was what we did in high school and college. While I think it's wrong morally , I don't see why it would be an illegl hit, but I'm also not 100% sure of the rule protecting kickers, like they protect punters.. Well, like has been pointed out here in many ways...it was illegal. I guess "cheap shot" is a matter of opinion. And if you don't/wouldn't advocate it, then that's good. After the kicker of a free kick has regained his balance, and gone the required 5 yards, he's eligible to be creamed like any other. I wouldn't target any player. Also, I read the comments in the youtube clips...the comments (for what they're worth) indicate it was flagged, but someone here says they know a ref that worked the game and it wasn't flagged, so I don't know. All the comments seem to indicate that this game was dirty throughout. Many big hits, and a lot of questionable or cheap hits. If the coach that orderd the hit thought it was legal, then he's stupid and needs to be reprimanded. If he knew it was illegal, he needs to be fired, banned or at least suspended. I agree with a lot of what tog said here about some parts of the game getting too soft. It's a contact sport, but there has to be some rules to protect players.
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Post by towtheline on Nov 4, 2008 21:19:52 GMT -6
does anyone know when the punter can be legally blocked?
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 5, 2008 12:25:20 GMT -6
does anyone know when the punter can be legally blocked? As I understood the rules from the link to the NCAA rules posted earlier, a punter, just like a free kicker, can be blocked after he regains his balance and advances 5 yards past the point of the kick.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Nov 5, 2008 13:47:04 GMT -6
The rule for the kicker of a scrimmage kick (punt, try, field goal) has a different set of protection rules. They are not the same and are found in 9.1.4.a:
ARTICLE 4. a. When it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick (A.R. 5-2-2-I and A.R. 9-1-4-I, III and VI). 1. Roughing is a personal foul that endangers the kicker or holder. 2. Running into the kicker or holder is a foul that occurs when the kicker or holder is displaced from his kicking or holding position but is not roughed (A.R. 9-1-4-II). 3. Incidental contact with a kicker or holder is not a foul. 4. The kicker and holder must be protected from injury, but contact that occurs when or after a scrimmage kick has been touched is not roughing or running into the kicker or holder. 5. The kicker of a scrimmage kick loses protection as a kicker when he has had a reasonable time to regain his balance (A.R. 9-1-4-IV). 6. A defensive player legally blocked into the kicker or holder by a member of the kicking team is not exempt from fouls for running into or roughing the kicker or holder. A defensive player illegally blocked into the kicker or holder by a member of the kicking team is exempt from fouls for running into or roughing the kicker or holder. 7. When a player, other than one who blocks a scrimmage kick, runs into or roughs the kicker or holder, it is a foul. 8. When in question whether the foul is “running into’’ or “roughing,’’ the foul is “roughing.’’ PENALTY—Five yards from the previous spot for running into the kicker or holder [S30]. Fifteen yards from the previous spot and a first down for roughing the kicker or holder if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S38 and S30]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 5, 2008 14:06:53 GMT -6
^^^^well there ya go!
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