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Post by khalfie on Nov 2, 2008 11:26:06 GMT -6
19 said it all... Frosh / JV championships... trophies... plaques? Huh? If you are not playing varsity... its practice! If its practice, run the system, learn the fundamentals... if you want prestige, acknowledgement... make the varsity program... that's where it counts... the rest is practice. I'm one of those guys that believe, Frosh get the old uniforms... Frosh and JV don't get the emblem on their helmet... If we have a practice field.... they have to play on the practice field... If they want the "juice", the accolades... play varsity... as a Frosh or Soph... and to do that... you have to be exceptional! Frosh ball... Jv ball... practice... Don't tell me you should get a trophy, or your name in the paper... for practice! This is High School Football Brother... if you want accolades and trophies go to intramurals brother! LOL! ;D This is a view that I shared probably up until 2 or 3 years ago. However, I now believe that such a view is essentially a mature adult view that probably is not embraced by 13 and 14 year olds as a whole. I don't think it is reasonable or realistic to expect 14 year old boys to think in the self-sacrificial terms that adults do. Not reasonable or realistic to expect them to devote themselves to an abstract overarching "program" of which traditionally they aren't "truly" a part of until they are upperclassmen or an exceptional athlete. Obviously not saying that anyone is wrong here..only that in a constant effort to improve, this is one area I have been exploring. I understand your sentiments coach... but this is where we do disagree... The beauty of football is its ability to teach life lessons. To transform young boys into young men. And its the direction of the head coach that fosters such transformations. We can either feed into the child mentality of self gratification, or we can foster the new ideology of self sacrifice for the success of the collective. If a kid can't buy into the ideals of working hard and earning the right to play on the big field, to wear the new uniforms, then shame on us as authority figures. Kids are nothing more than a compliation of our expectations. Coaches at the lower levels tell the kids that no one cares about them, and thats why they have to play on the practice field, don't get their name in the paper, and don't get trophies... well yeah, kids will probably not buy into the program. Coaches at the lower levels tell kids they have earn the right, as did those that came before them to play in the stadium, wear the new uni's, by putting in time in the weight room, and putting in work on the practice field, I think the majority of kids will buy into that. Will all kids? No... but again, football isn't for all kids. Its a special sport, for special kids... those williing to work hard, put the us before the I, and learn the importance of sacrifice and delayed gratification. In short coach... I disagree... kids will meet our expectations... its when we adults allow our personal agendas to interfere with the qualties we want to model develop and promote. , that we lose kids... It takes a staff... in accord, on all levels, especially the lower levels, to be succesful. The kids are the product, the coaches are the catalyst... I'm not expecting a kid to get anything... I'm expecting the coaching the staff to teach the lesson.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 2, 2008 12:04:27 GMT -6
Great post, Khal...extremely well said!
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 2, 2008 12:06:17 GMT -6
This is a view that I shared probably up until 2 or 3 years ago. However, I now believe that such a view is essentially a mature adult view that probably is not embraced by 13 and 14 year olds as a whole. I don't think it is reasonable or realistic to expect 14 year old boys to think in the self-sacrificial terms that adults do. Not reasonable or realistic to expect them to devote themselves to an abstract overarching "program" of which traditionally they aren't "truly" a part of until they are upperclassmen or an exceptional athlete. Obviously not saying that anyone is wrong here..only that in a constant effort to improve, this is one area I have been exploring. I understand your sentiments coach... but this is where we do disagree... The beauty of football is its ability to teach life lessons. To transform young boys into young men. And its the direction of the head coach that fosters such transformations. We can either feed into the child mentality of self gratification, or we can foster the new ideology of self sacrifice for the success of the collective. If a kid can't buy into the ideals of working hard and earning the right to play on the big field, to wear the new uniforms, then shame on us as authority figures. Kids are nothing more than a compliation of our expectations. Coaches at the lower levels tell the kids that no one cares about them, and thats why they have to play on the practice field, don't get their name in the paper, and don't get trophies... well yeah, kids will probably not buy into the program. Coaches at the lower levels tell kids they have earn the right, as did those that came before them to play in the stadium, wear the new uni's, by putting in time in the weight room, and putting in work on the practice field, I think the majority of kids will buy into that. Will all kids? No... but again, football isn't for all kids. Its a special sport, for special kids... those williing to work hard, put the us before the I, and learn the importance of sacrifice and delayed gratification. In short coach... I disagree... kids will meet our expectations... its when we adults allow our personal agendas to interfere with the qualties we want to model develop and promote. , that we lose kids... It takes a staff... in accord, on all levels, especially the lower levels, to be succesful. The kids are the product, the coaches are the catalyst... I'm not expecting a kid to get anything... I'm expecting the coaching the staff to teach the lesson. Seems to me that we both agree..just kind of blurring the line in the sand. I agree with you, on what you should STRIVE for. Remember, I am the most ANTI sticker/false rewards person out there. I am all about developing a program where competing doesn't mean game days, but competing means trying to win each indy drill, each sprint, each snap in inside run....etc. I am just saying that while constructing your program design, I think it is unrealistic to think in a manner where ONLY the Friday games matter and the rest is just practice. I don't think that mindset will serve the program well. I think if you are in a situation where your JV and FROSH "win" their respective leagues...and it is the same league they will be in as a varsity..then it is beneficial to play that up. They don't need trophies, but that effort should be recognized, applauded, and then you give them their NEXT challenge....which is friday night.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 2, 2008 12:13:10 GMT -6
I think that both khalfie and coachd5085 make GREAT points about why the selection of the freshman or sophomore-level head coaches is SO important...
If I'm a head coach, my freshman and sophomore head coaches are going to be the best MEN on the staff...guys who are great role models, hardworking, loyal, and understand COMPLETELY that their primary job responsibility is preparing kids for varsity football...knowing the "xs and os" are great, but it would be far more important for these coaches to be PROGRAM guys, first and foremost.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 2, 2008 18:14:34 GMT -6
Cmow, I think winning is an attitude and winning breeds winning. We did a fundraiser and took the money to buy new uniforms and we are going to have a nice banquet with some good awards from that. And we were only 3 and 5. But I moved 5 Freshmen players up to JV at the end of our season, and they plugged themselves right in, without needing to be taught much in the way of x and o's. So on one hand, winning is important, more importantly is the experience and what they learned.
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Post by mitch on Nov 2, 2008 20:23:09 GMT -6
19 said it all... Frosh / JV championships... trophies... plaques? Huh? If you are not playing varsity... its practice! If its practice, run the system, learn the fundamentals... if you want prestige, acknowledgement... make the varsity program... that's where it counts... the rest is practice. I'm one of those guys that believe, Frosh get the old uniforms... Frosh and JV don't get the emblem on their helmet... If we have a practice field.... they have to play on the practice field... If they want the "juice", the accolades... play varsity... as a Frosh or Soph... and to do that... you have to be exceptional! Frosh ball... Jv ball... practice... Don't tell me you should get a trophy, or your name in the paper... for practice! This is High School Football Brother... if you want accolades and trophies go to intramurals brother! LOL! ;D Do you have a different feeling on the sidelines of a JV or Freshman game than you do during a wednesday afternoon practice? Is your adrenaline pumping a little more? Do you get more excited when you score in the game versus scoring on the scout team in practice? Do you get a little feeling of satisfaction after beating your rival in a freshman game that you don't feel after thursday walk-thru? Again, I am not about plaques, parades, presidential proclamations, whatever. However, I do believe in recognizing the accomplishments of the young men participating in our program at any level. A picture in the paper with their names and record in the caption doesn't make kids fat and lazy when they reach the varsity level or give them a sense of entitlement. JMO.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 2, 2008 20:39:19 GMT -6
On the note of stickers. The coach before me was a big stickers guy. After the first practice, I told the kids that if they came back to the next practice with anything on their helmet except a facemask, that they would be running for each one.
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Post by cmow5 on Nov 2, 2008 21:15:30 GMT -6
Ok so I am supposed to tell 30 young men that It does not matter if you win or not because you are not talented enough to play on friday's. CMON! How many freshmen actually make it up there? this year we had 15 practice with varsity after our "season" was over and then 3 dress on game day and never played. last year 2, year before that 0. Why even play the lower level games? why not just have them practice for a few hours a day until they are ready for Friday night. As far as earning it they did. they where out there for off season workouts, 2 a days, practices. they where student athletes and kept there grades up and stayed out of trouble and then they won 8 out of 9 "practices". They played through pain, bled, cried when we lost by 4 points one time. Sorry, but my guys did earn it.
ALL I am asking for is a pat on the back for the kids(Yes I did it and almost teared up when I addressed them because they bust there ass this year), but if the 50 year vet varsity HC would do it it might mean a little more. A already taken team picture in the paper would be a great memory for them and a little taste of the spotlight that might strive them to achieve more at the next level. It cost NOTHING, but could be very valuable to my guys. I bet out of the 30 guys I had 29 will be out next year(One moved). Not because they learned the right way to shed a block or tackle or catch or run a route, but because they won and they know they might have something spacial in the future. Like I said winning is a habit and it encourages numbers and from the looks on this board numbers is a big problem for a lot of us. JMO
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Post by 19delta on Nov 2, 2008 22:14:31 GMT -6
Ok so I am supposed to tell 30 young men that It does not matter if you win or not because you are not talented enough to play on friday's. CMON! How many freshmen actually make it up there? this year we had 15 practice with varsity after our "season" was over and then 3 dress on game day and never played. last year 2, year before that 0. Why even play the lower level games? why not just have them practice for a few hours a day until they are ready for Friday night. As far as earning it they did. they where out there for off season workouts, 2 a days, practices. they where student athletes and kept there grades up and stayed out of trouble and then they won 8 out of 9 "practices". They played through pain, bled, cried when we lost by 4 points one time. Sorry, but my guys did earn it. ALL I am asking for is a pat on the back for the kids(Yes I did it and almost teared up when I addressed them because they bust there {censored} this year), but if the 50 year vet varsity HC would do it it might mean a little more. A already taken team picture in the paper would be a great memory for them and a little taste of the spotlight that might strive them to achieve more at the next level. It cost NOTHING, but could be very valuable to my guys. I bet out of the 30 guys I had 29 will be out next year(One moved). Not because they learned the right way to shed a block or tackle or catch or run a route, but because they won and they know they might have something spacial in the future. Like I said winning is a habit and it encourages numbers and from the looks on this board numbers is a big problem for a lot of us. JMO Just an observation, but it sounds to me like the recognition is at least as important to you as it is to the kids.
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Post by khalfie on Nov 2, 2008 22:15:55 GMT -6
Ok so I am supposed to tell 30 young men that It does not matter if you win or not because you are not talented enough to play on friday's. CMON! How many freshmen actually make it up there? this year we had 15 practice with varsity after our "season" was over and then 3 dress on game day and never played. last year 2, year before that 0. Why even play the lower level games? why not just have them practice for a few hours a day until they are ready for Friday night. As far as earning it they did. they where out there for off season workouts, 2 a days, practices. they where student athletes and kept there grades up and stayed out of trouble and then they won 8 out of 9 "practices". They played through pain, bled, cried when we lost by 4 points one time. Sorry, but my guys did earn it. ALL I am asking for is a pat on the back for the kids(Yes I did it and almost teared up when I addressed them because they bust there {censored} this year), but if the 50 year vet varsity HC would do it it might mean a little more. A already taken team picture in the paper would be a great memory for them and a little taste of the spotlight that might strive them to achieve more at the next level. It cost NOTHING, but could be very valuable to my guys. I bet out of the 30 guys I had 29 will be out next year(One moved). Not because they learned the right way to shed a block or tackle or catch or run a route, but because they won and they know they might have something spacial in the future. Like I said winning is a habit and it encourages numbers and from the looks on this board numbers is a big problem for a lot of us. JMO Entirely too extremish Cmow... Your first post stated... The kids received nothing, we told the newspaper to see about getting the kids picture in the paper and it got back to the AD and he went off on the Frosh HC for trying and said it was his(AD) job to do that, but still NOTHING. No certificate, NOTHING! Frosh didn't get anything? They got a great season, but that wasn't enough... coaches wanted certificates with trophies for the freshmen and Jv... Getting their numerals and Jv letters at the banquets not enough? I have to wonder if the varsity wasn't getting it done, and this seeking of additional recognition isn't more of a statement of separation... though the varsity isn't good... we are... as a matter of fact, lets put it in the paper so that everyone knows? That's purely my initial perspective... am I misinterpreting the scenerio? How did your Varsity do? I also, help with the JV and varsity all the time. and Twice this year I heard the OC say "I dont give a $%#^ if the JV wins another game" and I heard the varsity WR/ JV OC say I"I dont care if the freshmen win a game or not. My first thought was... "well how many times has he heard about the JV winning? " And taking into account your veracity in getting the Frosh in the paper, trophies, and such I assume he's heard it often? No one is stating that the success of the lower levels shouldn't be celebrated... but there's a difference between high fives for a job well done and recognition at the banquet, in contrast to plaques and trophies. Your attempts to garner media attention. though for the good of the kids, does have the appearance of hidden and personal agendas, as well as self aggrandizement... otherwise, the squads knowledge of a job well done, should be more than enough... but alas its not... is it? My question's are
1. Do you do anything if your freshmen or JV win a championship? 2.. Do you care if they win?What championship? The mythical Frosh / JV conference championship? Yes, we do. 1. If they win the Championship.... at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters... If they don't win the championship... at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters... 2. Yes, we care if they win... winning is habitual... the majority of our behavior is based on our habits... don't think I need to read about it in the paper though... or be reminded they are winning everytime the varsity loses. Just my thoughts.
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Post by cmow5 on Nov 3, 2008 3:04:04 GMT -6
Ok so I am supposed to tell 30 young men that It does not matter if you win or not because you are not talented enough to play on friday's. CMON! How many freshmen actually make it up there? this year we had 15 practice with varsity after our "season" was over and then 3 dress on game day and never played. last year 2, year before that 0. Why even play the lower level games? why not just have them practice for a few hours a day until they are ready for Friday night. As far as earning it they did. they where out there for off season workouts, 2 a days, practices. they where student athletes and kept there grades up and stayed out of trouble and then they won 8 out of 9 "practices". They played through pain, bled, cried when we lost by 4 points one time. Sorry, but my guys did earn it. ALL I am asking for is a pat on the back for the kids(Yes I did it and almost teared up when I addressed them because they bust there {censored} this year), but if the 50 year vet varsity HC would do it it might mean a little more. A already taken team picture in the paper would be a great memory for them and a little taste of the spotlight that might strive them to achieve more at the next level. It cost NOTHING, but could be very valuable to my guys. I bet out of the 30 guys I had 29 will be out next year(One moved). Not because they learned the right way to shed a block or tackle or catch or run a route, but because they won and they know they might have something spacial in the future. Like I said winning is a habit and it encourages numbers and from the looks on this board numbers is a big problem for a lot of us. JMO Entirely too extremish Cmow... Your first post stated... The kids received nothing, we told the newspaper to see about getting the kids picture in the paper and it got back to the AD and he went off on the Frosh HC for trying and said it was his(AD) job to do that, but still NOTHING. No certificate, NOTHING! Frosh didn't get anything? They got a great season, but that wasn't enough... coaches wanted certificates with trophies for the freshmen and Jv... Getting their numerals and Jv letters at the banquets not enough? I have to wonder if the varsity wasn't getting it done, and this seeking of additional recognition isn't more of a statement of separation... though the varsity isn't good... we are... as a matter of fact, lets put it in the paper so that everyone knows? That's purely my initial perspective... am I misinterpreting the scenerio? How did your Varsity do? I also, help with the JV and varsity all the time. and Twice this year I heard the OC say "I dont give a $%#^ if the JV wins another game" and I heard the varsity WR/ JV OC say I"I dont care if the freshmen win a game or not. My first thought was... "well how many times has he heard about the JV winning? " And taking into account your veracity in getting the Frosh in the paper, trophies, and such I assume he's heard it often? No one is stating that the success of the lower levels shouldn't be celebrated... but there's a difference between high fives for a job well done and recognition at the banquet, in contrast to plaques and trophies. Your attempts to garner media attention. though for the good of the kids, does have the appearance of hidden and personal agendas, as well as self aggrandizement... otherwise, the squads knowledge of a job well done, should be more than enough... but alas its not... is it? My question's are
1. Do you do anything if your freshmen or JV win a championship? 2.. Do you care if they win?What championship? The mythical Frosh / JV conference championship? Yes, we do. 1. If they win the Championship.... at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters... If they don't win the championship... at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters... 2. Yes, we care if they win... winning is habitual... the majority of our behavior is based on our habits... don't think I need to read about it in the paper though... or be reminded they are winning everytime the varsity loses. Just my thoughts. "That's purely my initial perspective... am I misinterpreting the scenerio? How did your Varsity do?" Yes you are. The varsity over achieved this year with a 6-3 record. Won against a few teams they should not have beat and beat the teams they should of. I was the biggest supporter of Varsity. Congratulated them on a win and felt bad when the lost. Also, scouted for them the times I wasn't on the sideline charting plays or helping with the dline. Filled in for the oline coach for a week and the WR coach for a week. Stayed after to help them every chance I could from acting as a mgr to shadowing the HC so I can learn. It has nothing to do with we won more games so I am a better coach. I will tell you right now I am the worse coach we got because of lack of experience. Some how because I fill the kids should be recognized(BTW they will not be recognized at our banquet either) I am doing for me thats BS. A pat on the back is to much to ask? The only reason we said anything about the picture in the paper is because that is what is done around here for EVERY sport at EVERY level. Last year's frosh "Champion" was in the paper, but I guess it is to much to ask for our team to have the same. "My first thought was... "well how many times has he heard about the JV winning? " And taking into account your veracity in getting the Frosh in the paper, trophies, and such I assume he's heard it often?" Actually you assume wrong. Not once did I even bring up the frosh game to ANY of them unless asked first and then all I said was we won or lost by so and so points. Then if they asked "What happened?" I would tell them in more detail. Now, I can see where you are coming from and if the answer was yes he heard it all the time that we won and they lost ( which I am sure happens a lot) but that is not the case here. Everything I do is for the team as a whole. From running the clock for a JV game, Trying to put in a "Big brother program" for the incoming frosh, staying after and help pick up equipment, chart play or scout on game night, collect equipment, clean out lockers and so on. None of these things are mandatory or expected of me(Probably because I am a volunteer) I do it to help the team. You said "at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters..." well they dont even get that you said "but there's a difference between high fives for a job well done and recognition at the banquet, in contrast to plaques and trophies." Once again they dont even get a "high five" and I never asked for a trophy(Which BTW if I had the money I would buy one for them) All we wanted to do was put a pic in the paper that is something done ALL the time around here at EVERY sport at EVERY level even frosh and JV we are not asking for anything different then is what the paper already does.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 3, 2008 8:17:08 GMT -6
Last year when our ninth grade went 7-0, they had their picture in the paper. Also, I doubt the HC would be overly sensitive about you winning games, I would think he would be excited that he has something to continue the varsity's success.
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Post by khalfie on Nov 3, 2008 8:41:21 GMT -6
Entirely too extremish Cmow... Your first post stated... The kids received nothing, we told the newspaper to see about getting the kids picture in the paper and it got back to the AD and he went off on the Frosh HC for trying and said it was his(AD) job to do that, but still NOTHING. No certificate, NOTHING! Frosh didn't get anything? They got a great season, but that wasn't enough... coaches wanted certificates with trophies for the freshmen and Jv... Getting their numerals and Jv letters at the banquets not enough? I have to wonder if the varsity wasn't getting it done, and this seeking of additional recognition isn't more of a statement of separation... though the varsity isn't good... we are... as a matter of fact, lets put it in the paper so that everyone knows? That's purely my initial perspective... am I misinterpreting the scenerio? How did your Varsity do? I also, help with the JV and varsity all the time. and Twice this year I heard the OC say "I dont give a $%#^ if the JV wins another game" and I heard the varsity WR/ JV OC say I"I dont care if the freshmen win a game or not. My first thought was... "well how many times has he heard about the JV winning? " And taking into account your veracity in getting the Frosh in the paper, trophies, and such I assume he's heard it often? No one is stating that the success of the lower levels shouldn't be celebrated... but there's a difference between high fives for a job well done and recognition at the banquet, in contrast to plaques and trophies. Your attempts to garner media attention. though for the good of the kids, does have the appearance of hidden and personal agendas, as well as self aggrandizement... otherwise, the squads knowledge of a job well done, should be more than enough... but alas its not... is it? My question's are
1. Do you do anything if your freshmen or JV win a championship? 2.. Do you care if they win?What championship? The mythical Frosh / JV conference championship? Yes, we do. 1. If they win the Championship.... at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters... If they don't win the championship... at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters... 2. Yes, we care if they win... winning is habitual... the majority of our behavior is based on our habits... don't think I need to read about it in the paper though... or be reminded they are winning everytime the varsity loses. Just my thoughts. "That's purely my initial perspective... am I misinterpreting the scenerio? How did your Varsity do?" Yes you are. The varsity over achieved this year with a 6-3 record. Won against a few teams they should not have beat and beat the teams they should of. I was the biggest supporter of Varsity. Congratulated them on a win and felt bad when the lost. Also, scouted for them the times I wasn't on the sideline charting plays or helping with the dline. Filled in for the oline coach for a week and the WR coach for a week. Stayed after to help them every chance I could from acting as a mgr to shadowing the HC so I can learn. It has nothing to do with we won more games so I am a better coach. I will tell you right now I am the worse coach we got because of lack of experience. Some how because I fill the kids should be recognized(BTW they will not be recognized at our banquet either) I am doing for me thats BS. A pat on the back is to much to ask? The only reason we said anything about the picture in the paper is because that is what is done around here for EVERY sport at EVERY level. Last year's frosh "Champion" was in the paper, but I guess it is to much to ask for our team to have the same. "My first thought was... "well how many times has he heard about the JV winning? " And taking into account your veracity in getting the Frosh in the paper, trophies, and such I assume he's heard it often?" Actually you assume wrong. Not once did I even bring up the frosh game to ANY of them unless asked first and then all I said was we won or lost by so and so points. Then if they asked "What happened?" I would tell them in more detail. Now, I can see where you are coming from and if the answer was yes he heard it all the time that we won and they lost ( which I am sure happens a lot) but that is not the case here. Everything I do is for the team as a whole. From running the clock for a JV game, Trying to put in a "Big brother program" for the incoming frosh, staying after and help pick up equipment, chart play or scout on game night, collect equipment, clean out lockers and so on. None of these things are mandatory or expected of me(Probably because I am a volunteer) I do it to help the team. You said "at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters..." well they dont even get that you said "but there's a difference between high fives for a job well done and recognition at the banquet, in contrast to plaques and trophies." Once again they dont even get a "high five" and I never asked for a trophy(Which BTW if I had the money I would buy one for them) All we wanted to do was put a pic in the paper that is something done ALL the time around here at EVERY sport at EVERY level even frosh and JV we are not asking for anything different then is what the paper already does. With that being the case... I think you are very much justified in feeling under-appreciated and neglected.
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Post by olinecoach61 on Nov 3, 2008 9:10:54 GMT -6
JV Championship? Isn't that an oxymoron? Look, I want the lower levels to win, but I could care less if they go 6-2 or 8 - 0. Its JV! The point is for those kids to get work in and learn the system. If they have success along the way great. They can earn trophies and rings on Friday nights.
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Post by realdawg on Nov 3, 2008 9:27:19 GMT -6
The primary concern of the JV team is to learn how to play the game within our system. Do you want them to win YES!!! Who doesnt want to win??? Losing sucks, but on the JV level is comes after teaching them to play the game and do things properly. With that being said, generally we have been successful on varsity and struggled on JV. However, this year we had a bunch of varsity kids that didnt do things right-lifting, running, working hard, and they are reaping the benefits of their laziness (1-9, first team hear not to make playoffs in 10 years) They just thought with the success we had always had that it would come easy and didnt put in the work. Our JV on the other hand is one win away from going undefeated, they are a great group that loves to play, and loves one another. We are selling them on the hard work that is needed by using our varsity kids as an example of what not to do.
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Post by bulldogoption on Nov 3, 2008 9:42:06 GMT -6
Back in my day........... ...no seriously keep reading........... I was on a team that didn't lose a game in 8th, 9th, or 10th grade. We had all the pieces of the puzzle, everything. Our HS had enjoyed much success in football in the 10 years prior to us. We thought winning would just happen for us. Varsity Level....3-6; 3-6 A couple of things happened to cause the downfall. 1. After our Frosh season, there was an article in a major newspaper predicting our berth in the state finals when we reached Varsity. I'm totally serious. 2. The two classes in front of us were not very good. The winning mentality at the varsity level dropped just a bit before we arrived. 3. A lot of the success at the younger levels was based on pure athletic ability. ...When it came time to put in offseason work and be disciplined we couldn't do it. We hadn't had to before so why should we now. BECAUSE at the varsity level its about more than talent. Its about coaching, and off season work, and talent and community and many other things. IMO the best situation for a younger level team is to win over half their games but not all. They feel confident, but may still be hungry to be better. Reasons and stories like I posted above are why Varsity level coaches are not so quick to anoint younger classes. Hope this story helps...............
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Post by cmow5 on Nov 3, 2008 9:50:34 GMT -6
"That's purely my initial perspective... am I misinterpreting the scenerio? How did your Varsity do?" Yes you are. The varsity over achieved this year with a 6-3 record. Won against a few teams they should not have beat and beat the teams they should of. I was the biggest supporter of Varsity. Congratulated them on a win and felt bad when the lost. Also, scouted for them the times I wasn't on the sideline charting plays or helping with the dline. Filled in for the oline coach for a week and the WR coach for a week. Stayed after to help them every chance I could from acting as a mgr to shadowing the HC so I can learn. It has nothing to do with we won more games so I am a better coach. I will tell you right now I am the worse coach we got because of lack of experience. Some how because I fill the kids should be recognized(BTW they will not be recognized at our banquet either) I am doing for me thats BS. A pat on the back is to much to ask? The only reason we said anything about the picture in the paper is because that is what is done around here for EVERY sport at EVERY level. Last year's frosh "Champion" was in the paper, but I guess it is to much to ask for our team to have the same. "My first thought was... "well how many times has he heard about the JV winning? " And taking into account your veracity in getting the Frosh in the paper, trophies, and such I assume he's heard it often?" Actually you assume wrong. Not once did I even bring up the frosh game to ANY of them unless asked first and then all I said was we won or lost by so and so points. Then if they asked "What happened?" I would tell them in more detail. Now, I can see where you are coming from and if the answer was yes he heard it all the time that we won and they lost ( which I am sure happens a lot) but that is not the case here. Everything I do is for the team as a whole. From running the clock for a JV game, Trying to put in a "Big brother program" for the incoming frosh, staying after and help pick up equipment, chart play or scout on game night, collect equipment, clean out lockers and so on. None of these things are mandatory or expected of me(Probably because I am a volunteer) I do it to help the team. You said "at the banquet, we have them all rise, have the coaches speak to their season, and award them their Numbers or Jv letters..." well they dont even get that you said "but there's a difference between high fives for a job well done and recognition at the banquet, in contrast to plaques and trophies." Once again they dont even get a "high five" and I never asked for a trophy(Which BTW if I had the money I would buy one for them) All we wanted to do was put a pic in the paper that is something done ALL the time around here at EVERY sport at EVERY level even frosh and JV we are not asking for anything different then is what the paper already does. With that being the case... I think you are very much justified in feeling under-appreciated and neglected. I dont feel under appreciated or negated I have heard nothing but good things about ME this year from all of the staff, but I dont care about that ( Well I do appreciate that they noticed my hard work) My problem is the kids feeling under appreciated. We have a BIG problem here with the separation of the 3 teams. We had 5 upper classmen get suspended for "hazing" freshmen. I have heard a few JV guys say " I wont play on Friday so I aint going to the game" and some of my freshmen dont even go to the Varsity game. I think because when the upper class men where frosh they got treated the same way then the are just carrying on the "Tradition" and I am trying to have 1 team that all supports each other. I think we took a step froward this year and we had a lot more frosh go to varsity and JV games and we even had the varsity on frosh home games and stand on the sideline to help coach the kids after there pre-game meal. I would love for them to get to stand up at the banquet and get recognized that way, buty that does not happen here. And the paper only bugs me because that is what is done around here. I would never even think about it if it wasn't already a regular event for all sports. I played sports in this area 17 years ago and when ever we won or anybody we where in the paper. I played sports in the Detroit area and the winning teams got put in the paper I just thought it was a common thing everywhere. I know it is a common thing around here in fact the frosh girls volleyball team was in the paper at my school.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Nov 3, 2008 10:05:13 GMT -6
JV at one school might be "left overs" where at another school it truly is "the future". One schools jv are just a bunch of geeks and dorks while at the other school its just young studs waiting their turn. Similarly, freshman ball is, at one school, a showcase of up and comers where at another school freshman ball is "just the sissies who wouldnt (or couldnt) move up" when called upon. I think its completely acceptable to celebrate a winning season, a "championship" season if you will, and just recognize hard work and commitment. Those coaches who prepared those teams are as into the awards as the kids are. I still have my junior high champs trophies. Heck, I still have my pee wee champ trophy too. Ill bet most of you guys hung onto your past accomplishments, youth, jr high, high school , college or whatever.
Losing football games, at any level can damage morale. (particularly with bad losses)
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Post by mitch on Nov 3, 2008 10:24:43 GMT -6
Back in my day........... ...no seriously keep reading........... I was on a team that didn't lose a game in 8th, 9th, or 10th grade. We had all the pieces of the puzzle, everything. Our HS had enjoyed much success in football in the 10 years prior to us. We thought winning would just happen for us. Varsity Level....3-6; 3-6 A couple of things happened to cause the downfall. 1. After our Frosh season, there was an article in a major newspaper predicting our berth in the state finals when we reached Varsity. I'm totally serious. 2. The two classes in front of us were not very good. The winning mentality at the varsity level dropped just a bit before we arrived. 3. A lot of the success at the younger levels was based on pure athletic ability. ...When it came time to put in offseason work and be disciplined we couldn't do it. We hadn't had to before so why should we now. BECAUSE at the varsity level its about more than talent. Its about coaching, and off season work, and talent and community and many other things. IMO the best situation for a younger level team is to win over half their games but not all. They feel confident, but may still be hungry to be better. Reasons and stories like I posted above are why Varsity level coaches are not so quick to anoint younger classes. Hope this story helps............... I was on a team that never lost in junior high, everyone in town new we were going to be good, we knew we were going to be good, and we won two state championships and were :30 away from another in High School. Just goes to show for every personnal experience we have each had, someone could refute it with a story that relates the exact opposite. Each group of kids in every community are different, but I still believe that kids should be recognized (not celebrated) for postive achievements.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 3, 2008 17:27:05 GMT -6
Local team around here went 18-0 between their freshmen and sophomore years. These kids had write-ups in the newspaper, plaques to celebrate their "championships" and they even got special patches for their letter jackets. The only thing that was missing was the fitting for the state championship ring.
Those kids just finished up their high school career with an embarrassing 35-6 loss in the first round of the playoffs and an overall varsity record of 11-9, which includes an 0-2 mark in the playoffs.
Good thing those kids get all those awards when they were freshmen and sophs...there sure as H E L L weren't going to get them as juniors and seniors!
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 3, 2008 17:44:43 GMT -6
I coached in a 4A program where the 9th and 10th grade would be sub .500 or right around .500 every year. Then when those kids got to varsity they usually won the section title.
Its great if they can win. If the scoreboard is on then you should be trying to win. But the overall goal of the program is to develop talent and build confidence in the players. Case in point one year when coaching the 9th grade with that state power program we were facing a 4th and short and our best backs were playing defense that half. Some coaches wanted to bring those kids in to get the first down. We left the other kids in. Now later on we went to OT and then we went with our best 11 on O and D the whole time.
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