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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 4, 2008 10:05:23 GMT -6
Just something I was wondering about. If you are an assistant coach or a volunteer assistant, I was thinking it would be an enormous advantage in moving up the ladder and maybe even eventually being a head coach if you could work with WINNING programs and coaches who are proven winners. I would even go so far as to say that working in very bad programs for coaches withs reputations as poor coaches, it could actually even work as a BLACK EYE and be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for getting future jobs. Basically, you would be better off taking a year or two away from coaching (provided you can afford it) rather than having your reputation tarnished by being associated with a very bad program. At least it seems that way based on my experience. The clout of even being ASSOCIATED with a Hoover, Southlake Carroll, or DeLa Salle on your resume' carries a TON of clout, even if you played a very small role on that staff, IMO. What do you guys think about this?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 4, 2008 15:22:15 GMT -6
welll now if the AD just happens to be the head soccer coach, he will hire a coach from within the losing staff. If this is your situation, stay put.
Otherwise, I agree, coach for a winner, be recognized as a winner and be sought after as a winner.
Also, if you coach on a losers staff do not expect the other losers on staff to say or do anything to help you gain advancement of your career. Obviously I am speaking in very general terms here as every situation is different. In many cases there is a very good reason why one program or another is considered poor. Quite honestly if you were looking to hire a new head coach you would probably start by talking to the coordinators from a winning staff.
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Post by davecisar on Jul 4, 2008 17:45:53 GMT -6
Im no HS coach, but Ive hired a ton of people.
We always looked to the top performing companies in the field to hire from. Why? Because most of them had very high hiring standards and great training programs. Of course the employee had to be a top performer within the organization as well. It worked for us.
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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 4, 2008 21:32:30 GMT -6
I think someone on here summed it up pretty well a few weeks ago. he said that if you want to be an assistant, get with the very best program possible. But when trying to get a head coaching job, it's often best to take over a program that is down. Me personally, I've been out of coaching for a year. I'm trying to get hooked up as a volunteer assistant for some good programs in our area. Knowing from past experience, I'm not gonna touch the bad programs with a 10 foot pole (been there, done that). As I said, I think even being associated with a losing program can really hurt your reputation. Who would you more likely consider to be your offensive coordinator, the OC at the school that went 1-19 the past 2 years or the "volunteer assistant" coach that helped work with the receivers at Southlake Carroll? I think you get my point.
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dcoach84
Sophomore Member
If what you did yesterday seems big, you haven't done anything today. -Lou Holtz
Posts: 129
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Post by dcoach84 on Jul 4, 2008 21:43:01 GMT -6
So are you saying to either coach a "good" team or sit out until the opportunity arises?
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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 4, 2008 22:05:19 GMT -6
So are you saying to either coach a "good" team or sit out until the opportunity arises? I just depends. Some, for financial needs, may have no choice but to coach in a bad program. Others may not be looking to move up the ladder, so they really won't be hurt by coaching in a bad program. BUT, if you really want to move up the ladder and maybe even be a head coach one day, I feel it is almost IMPERATIVE that you associate yourself with a winning coach and program in some form or fashion, even if it's just on a volunteer basis. If people look at your resume' and see that most every program you have worked for is a losing program, rightly or wrongly, they tend to assume you can't coach. Most programs won't even give you a look. Essentially, what I am saying is that the school you worked at and its reputation often can carry more clout than the job title you actually held. |
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Post by davecisar on Jul 5, 2008 5:42:06 GMT -6
To understand this situation correctly one has to put themselves in the hiring chair of the AD. That is all that matters, what is important to the AD, what drives him. Is it State Championships?, keeping his job?, keeping hsi work load light? staying clear of controversy? doing a buddy a favor?
In most cases The AD has to hire someone that can do the job, meet the expectations, the needs and goals of the program and USUALLY be palatable to the alumni and stake holders. Credibility is probably fairly important. My guess is this is why successful guys like Hayden Fry and others have long coaching trees that branch out from them, they had an excellent teacher and they had a reputation as a "winner".
No matter how great that guy from the 1-30 program is, doubtfull he gets much of a look when the AD makes his final decision. The AD has to live with the fallout of the decision and "I told you sos" if it doesnt work out. My guess is that is the reality many/most ADs probably live with. While what DCOHIO says is probably 100% true, you have to look at the reality and motivations (and fears) of the actual person doing the hiring.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 5, 2008 6:05:53 GMT -6
I have seen ADs entertain jv coaches, freshman cooridinators too because they were from "a state champion staff" - winning is associated with winners , winning staffs attract inquiries from schools looking.
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 5, 2008 9:33:53 GMT -6
It is stating the obvious that being on a winning staff - either as an assistant, JV, or frosh coach - adds to your resume appeal when seeking a job. It is also very true that some assistants are simply just not ready or equipped to be head coaches, and a savvy AD will exhaust all efforts when evaluating a potential hire. Another consideration is that a "losing" program often loses for many reasons. If you are currently at a non-winning program I think you need to market any true positives that were a result of your efforts including (examples):
High participation numbers at all levels
increased production/efficiency (from statistics)
Competed well against superior competition (larger enrollment or scholarship schools)
Clinic and/or camp appearances
Community involvement
An argument can be made that turning around a program is more impressive than being an assistant on a winning program.
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Post by airraider on Jul 5, 2008 9:38:42 GMT -6
I took the HC job at a bad school because I knew that was the only way I would ever get a chance.. You have to get experience to have experience.. and if you dont have experience.. dont even bother trying to become the next HC at "win every year high"..
I took over a school with great athletes, but not the best program.. NO weight program.. no athletics PE.. no summer program.. Now.. if I can install of this.. keep my kids in line.. and get them to buy in.. we "should" win 6 games this year.. and "could" win 8..
Thats much better than the 2-8, 0-10, and 3-7 the previous years..
I have done my time at bad programs.. My first high school job was as a freshmen coach on a team that went 1-9 my first year.. then put together a couple of 5-5 seasons.. then 0-10..
well.. in comes a new coach.. who decided to get serious about the same things that I am serious about now..
We went 6-4 the first year (directly after 0-10) with those 6 wins all coming in a row.. Not to mention we were playing at the 4A level with only 28 kids.. we went to the playoffs and got blew out the first round..
Next year.. we went 6-4.. with all 4 losses coming by a TD or less.. and then got beat in triple overtime in the first round of the playoffs.. by a FG..
The 3rd year.. we went 13-1 and lost in the semis to the eventual state champs..
This past season.. went into another program.. NEVER did anything football related other than in season.. did not lift in season.. NO SPEED.. NO STRENGTH.. Came in with a 20 game losing streak.. had only scored 30 something points the entire year before.. We lost all of the games except the last one..
The off season.. the coach worked their butts off.. made all kids run track.. they took 30 white kids and 1 black kid.. and finished district runner up in track.. I remember in years past where they would have 4 kids out.. all distance guys..
This spring they had a great showing.. and I fully expect them to win some ball games..
What is the common factor??? NO OFFSEASON and NO WEIGHTROOM WORK.. Its a FACT that if you work your butt of all year long on just getting bigger, faster, and stronger.. you will become BETTER.. better is of course a relative term.. but you will be BETTER than you were without them..
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Post by phantom on Jul 5, 2008 14:23:55 GMT -6
I took the HC job at a bad school because I knew that was the only way I would ever get a chance.. You have to get experience to have experience.. and if you dont have experience.. dont even bother trying to become the next HC at "win every year high".. I took over a school with great athletes, but not the best program.. NO weight program.. no athletics PE.. no summer program.. Now.. if I can install of this.. keep my kids in line.. and get them to buy in.. we "should" win 6 games this year.. and "could" win 8.. Thats much better than the 2-8, 0-10, and 3-7 the previous years.. I have done my time at bad programs.. My first high school job was as a freshmen coach on a team that went 1-9 my first year.. then put together a couple of 5-5 seasons.. then 0-10.. well.. in comes a new coach.. who decided to get serious about the same things that I am serious about now.. We went 6-4 the first year (directly after 0-10) with those 6 wins all coming in a row.. Not to mention we were playing at the 4A level with only 28 kids.. we went to the playoffs and got blew out the first round.. Next year.. we went 6-4.. with all 4 losses coming by a TD or less.. and then got beat in triple overtime in the first round of the playoffs.. by a FG.. The 3rd year.. we went 13-1 and lost in the semis to the eventual state champs.. This past season.. went into another program.. NEVER did anything football related other than in season.. did not lift in season.. NO SPEED.. NO STRENGTH.. Came in with a 20 game losing streak.. had only scored 30 something points the entire year before.. We lost all of the games except the last one.. The off season.. the coach worked their butts off.. made all kids run track.. they took 30 white kids and 1 black kid.. and finished district runner up in track.. I remember in years past where they would have 4 kids out.. all distance guys.. This spring they had a great showing.. and I fully expect them to win some ball games.. What is the common factor??? NO OFFSEASON and NO WEIGHTROOM WORK.. Its a FACT that if you work your butt of all year long on just getting bigger, faster, and stronger.. you will become BETTER.. better is of course a relative term.. but you will be BETTER than you were without them.. I'm stunned by some of what I've read here. I don't get paid a nickle for showing up in the offseason. None of us do. All of the coaches who can show up, though. It's considered part of the job and we do it because we like to win. We ask kids to work hard. We also expect the coaches to work hard. Anytihng other than that is foreign to me. |
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Post by airraider on Jul 5, 2008 15:41:54 GMT -6
I took the HC job at a bad school because I knew that was the only way I would ever get a chance.. You have to get experience to have experience.. and if you dont have experience.. dont even bother trying to become the next HC at "win every year high".. I took over a school with great athletes, but not the best program.. NO weight program.. no athletics PE.. no summer program.. Now.. if I can install of this.. keep my kids in line.. and get them to buy in.. we "should" win 6 games this year.. and "could" win 8.. Thats much better than the 2-8, 0-10, and 3-7 the previous years.. I have done my time at bad programs.. My first high school job was as a freshmen coach on a team that went 1-9 my first year.. then put together a couple of 5-5 seasons.. then 0-10.. well.. in comes a new coach.. who decided to get serious about the same things that I am serious about now.. We went 6-4 the first year (directly after 0-10) with those 6 wins all coming in a row.. Not to mention we were playing at the 4A level with only 28 kids.. we went to the playoffs and got blew out the first round.. Next year.. we went 6-4.. with all 4 losses coming by a TD or less.. and then got beat in triple overtime in the first round of the playoffs.. by a FG.. The 3rd year.. we went 13-1 and lost in the semis to the eventual state champs.. This past season.. went into another program.. NEVER did anything football related other than in season.. did not lift in season.. NO SPEED.. NO STRENGTH.. Came in with a 20 game losing streak.. had only scored 30 something points the entire year before.. We lost all of the games except the last one.. The off season.. the coach worked their butts off.. made all kids run track.. they took 30 white kids and 1 black kid.. and finished district runner up in track.. I remember in years past where they would have 4 kids out.. all distance guys.. This spring they had a great showing.. and I fully expect them to win some ball games.. What is the common factor??? NO OFFSEASON and NO WEIGHTROOM WORK.. Its a FACT that if you work your butt of all year long on just getting bigger, faster, and stronger.. you will become BETTER.. better is of course a relative term.. but you will be BETTER than you were without them.. I'm stunned by some of what I've read here. I don't get paid a nickle for showing up in the offseason. None of us do. All of the coaches who can show up, though. It's considered part of the job and we do it because we like to win. We ask kids to work hard. We also expect the coaches to work hard. Anytihng other than that is foreign to me. You are right.. its amazing that some coaches just do not care enough to do the extra that it takes to win.. The place I was at last year.. the coach came in around this time last year.. and like I said.. before him.. there was nothing.. off season during athletics PE.. the kids would be out in the stands just hanging out.. but.. he has somewhere around 48 days this summer that the weightroom will be open.. and he expects his kids to make a certain number of them.. hell.. he will have several who make all of them.. We have our weightroom open on Mon and Weds and on tues and thurs before we practice on 7 on 7.. its not as involved as I would like.. but due to kids working.. summer school.. and other outside influences.. it really only pays for now to have our kids up there in the evenings.. |
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Post by touchdowng on Jul 5, 2008 22:58:22 GMT -6
When I was a young coach and was at the Junior High I had two opportunities pop up at the exact same time. One was as a position coach at the H.S. that my J.H. fed. This school was a perennial state contender. The other was as a defensive coordinator at the cross district high school that had been losing for quite sometime.
The H/C from the winning school said that I could come and coach with him and continue to win. Or, I could go cross town and try to make a name for myself and help resurrect a program. He knew I wanted to climb the ladder to becoming a H.S. coach. He felt I had a better chance of accending at the "losing school."
I took the job at the losing school and in two years helped turn the program around. In our third year, we beat the perennial winner for the first time in 17 years.
The losing school became a springboard for my career. No regrets here.
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Post by touchdowng on Jul 5, 2008 22:59:18 GMT -6
When I was a young coach and was at the Junior High I had two opportunities pop up at the exact same time. One was as a position coach at the H.S. that my J.H. fed. This school was a perennial state contender. The other was as a defensive coordinator at the cross district high school that had been losing for quite sometime. The head coach was unproved and his staff was inferior to the one at the winning school. The H/C from the winning school said that I could come and coach with him and continue to win. Or, I could go cross town and try to make a name for myself and help resurrect a program. He knew I wanted to climb the ladder to becoming a H.S. coach. He felt I had a better chance of accending at the "losing school." I took the job at the losing school and in two years helped turn the program around. In our third year, we beat the perennial winner for the first time in 17 years. The losing school became a springboard for my career. No regrets here. |
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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 12, 2008 11:21:35 GMT -6
I disagree. Just because a coach is coming from a down program does not alone make him a bad coach. It all goes in cycles for most teams. Now we all know those handfull of schools who haven't had a season worse than 7-3 since the Lincoln administration but for the majority of schools, it's a cycle. Now obviously some schools have bad coaches, I agree with that but inherently being bad just because his team isn't winning I don't agree with. AND more importantly, a coach may be from the longest line of winning team in the country. That doesn't garuntee, even if you get the HC to come to your 0-10 school, that he will have the same results at your school. We all know those coaches who have been successful, went to a different school and have disappeared. But we all know those coaches who have went and turned around programs. Personally I think the #1 most important aspect of turning around a program has nothing to do with the coach's football knowledge but lies in his ability to get the players to buy in to his program. I agree, that being from a losing program does not necessarily mean you are a poor coach. But, unfortunately, you are often perceived that way by those who don't know better. And unfortunately, those who don't know better often do the hiring. True, coaches from winning programs are sometimes hired based on the prestige of the program they worked for and turn out to be flops. Basically, if you aren't associated with a winning program, you may very well ever be able to get your foot in the door. Right or wrong, in hiring, perception is often more important than reality. |
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Post by coyote2 on Jul 12, 2008 20:15:25 GMT -6
I'll agree with and then add some things to what everyone has said. I work in a program with very established and good coaches, but the kids are just not interested in putting in any extra work and for some, work at all. This will constitute in a tough year next year and if you try to say that the coaches on the staff aren't good, don't work hard and don't care about winning or the kids, I would say you were wrong. Unfortunatley, it will all come down to records and winning next year, and in some instances like this one it's not always about the coaches it is most often about the character of the groups that you have at that particular time.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 12, 2008 22:09:14 GMT -6
Just something I was wondering about. If you are an assistant coach or a volunteer assistant, I was thinking it would be an enormous advantage in moving up the ladder and maybe even eventually being a head coach if you could work with WINNING programs and coaches who are proven winners. I would even go so far as to say that working in very bad programs for coaches withs reputations as poor coaches, it could actually even work as a BLACK EYE and be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for getting future jobs. Basically, you would be better off taking a year or two away from coaching (provided you can afford it) rather than having your reputation tarnished by being associated with a very bad program. At least it seems that way based on my experience. The clout of even being ASSOCIATED with a Hoover, Southlake Carroll, or DeLa Salle on your resume' carries a TON of clout, even if you played a very small role on that staff, IMO. What do you guys think about this? I would agree greatly here. As Davecisar alluded to there are certain things that successful operations universally have. If you worked with SLC or DeLaSalle,or John Curtis, or Hoover..you probably absorbed at least some of this through osmosis, and hopefully a great deal of it if you were paying attention. The football schemes are irrelevant, I bet other than differing scheemes (spread vs veer) those programs do many things the same way. THAT is the value on the resume. Being exposed to a program that does things that yields success. |
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Post by fatkicker on Jul 12, 2008 23:14:48 GMT -6
there is only one thing that matters.......who you know......
you can come from john curtis or minnesota barber college......if you know the guy you've got the job.....
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 12, 2008 23:42:04 GMT -6
there is only one thing that matters.......who you know...... you can come from john curtis or minnesota barber college......if you know the guy you've got the job..... and if no applicants "know the guy"..... Rather shortsighted statement fatkicker...not up to par with your usual quality work. |
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Post by fatkicker on Jul 13, 2008 1:04:40 GMT -6
probably not my best.....you're correct coach d.....maybe better said.....if you know somebody at one of the super powers mentioned above.....i stand corrected.....
but really, how often does an applicant go in completely "blind"......
it might be a small connection.......i worked with your college roommate's cousin back at fricasee high school 10 years ago......but there's still a connection.....
speaking for myself, i've probably been to 4 header interviews and 30 assistant interviews over the years....i think i've gone in blind 3 times....meaning, i had no connection to the header or a.d........again, i count the smallest connection as a connection......
as i talk to other coaches in our state, most everybody says close to the same thing......of course coaches in our state are many times accused of playing a giant game of musical chairs.....so after a while, we've just about worked with everybody.....ha
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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 13, 2008 12:10:48 GMT -6
there is only one thing that matters.......who you know...... you can come from john curtis or minnesota barber college......if you know the guy you've got the job..... I'll agree to a large extent. politics often play a HUGE role in hiring, especially here in Alabama. If you don't know the right people, you'd better have KICK BUTT credentials to have a chance (like that working with the winning programs we've been talking about. |
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