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Post by Coach JR on Jul 1, 2008 9:52:03 GMT -6
I've read here, I think, that these offensive concepts started or were maybe put in to place as a "playbook" or "philosophy" by Norm Chow at BYU. That Mumme and Leach are "disciples" maybe, and that Franklin is "the next generation" maybe?
So, my questions are...is this a "playbook" or a "philosophy"? What do each of the coaches I mentioned do alike, and what does each do differently, if anything? Or is it just how each individual calls plays and manages a game within the playbook/philosophy?
Obviously I'm particularly interested in learning about Franklin, and would appreciate any particular insite there.
I know I've read here about what Franklin charges, and I hope not to get in to that debate. I'd really just love to learn more about the offense I'm going to see on the field this fall at Auburn.
Thanks.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 1, 2008 16:03:48 GMT -6
Without divulging too much info. I think Franklin's formation system is not intuitive and makes little to no sense; however, the concepts and series of plays, not just playbook, are extraordinary.
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 1, 2008 16:38:20 GMT -6
Ive watched 7 Troy games from last year this off season,not impressed. He wanders to far from the initial Air Raid.
Leach and Texas Tech system is way more simple and very effective.
MY OPINION
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 1, 2008 17:07:41 GMT -6
I've read here, I think, that these offensive concepts started or were maybe put in to place as a "playbook" or "philosophy" by Norm Chow at BYU. That Mumme and Leach are "disciples" maybe, and that Franklin is "the next generation" maybe? So, my questions are...is this a "playbook" or a "philosophy"? What do each of the coaches I mentioned do alike, and what does each do differently, if anything? Or is it just how each individual calls plays and manages a game within the playbook/philosophy? Obviously I'm particularly interested in learning about Franklin, and would appreciate any particular insite there. I know I've read here about what Franklin charges, and I hope not to get in to that debate. I'd really just love to learn more about the offense I'm going to see on the field this fall at Auburn. Thanks. I wrote about this in another thread but can't seem to find it. The "offense" came from BYU, and the original setup (including mesh, all-curl, Y-cross, etc) was really developed by Doug Scovil which he brought with him from the Pros. The philosophy was throwing the ball short, using your skill players, and putting your kids in position to score. This was the early 80s. Chow didn't really invent the system, but he eventually took over as OC and became an excellent OC and, really his strength has been developing QBs, as shown by how many of them have gone on to the Pros and won Heisman trophies. Leach was a graduate assistant at BYU, Mumme a follower/fan. They took the plays but more importantly took the philosophy - throw the ball. The term "philosophy" is thrown around a lot, and I think most "spread" coaches say their philosophy is about spreading the D, creating matchups, creating lanes, etc. But I think the Airraid guys are telling the truth when they say their philosophy is to "throw the ball short to people who score." To them throwing the ball is an end of itself. For other spread coaches they don't care whether it is runs or passes. Not these guys. So is it a playbook or a philosophy? It's both. The plays have actually developed over time: I'm not sure when Y-stick or Y-corner came into the offense, and I really don't think "shallow" came into being until that squad was already at Kentucky. I had a lot of film of the 1997 team and I can't say i ever saw them run it. They got the concept from Mike Shanahan. It is probably the play they call the most. I'd say Franklin is less a true believer but he coaches what he learned from those guys, has been around the system now for over 10 years, and through his clinics/etc he has benefited from a two-way dialogue with his disciples, who go back and forth with him on what works and what can be developed. Insofar as it is a playbook it is like the R&S or wing-t is that the playbook, in this mature phase for the offense, manifests what the Airraid guys hope to do: which is spread the ball around to lots of skill guys and throw it a ton. To get weird about it, one could imagine a parallel universe where a different set of plays made up the airraid offense, but what would be the same would be how they practice is, along with the philosophy of throwing the ball lots.
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Post by Coach JR on Jul 1, 2008 17:35:54 GMT -6
Ive watched 7 Troy games from last year this off season,not impressed. He wanders to far from the initial Air Raid. Leach and Texas Tech system is way more simple and very effective. MY OPINION I saw where you wrote that in another thread. Can you elaborate on how he gets too far afield?
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Post by Coach JR on Jul 1, 2008 17:36:57 GMT -6
Without divulging too much info. I think Franklin's formation system is not intuitive and makes little to no sense; however, the concepts and series of plays, not just playbook, are extraordinary. Are you referring to the terminology?
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 1, 2008 19:58:17 GMT -6
Ive watched 7 Troy games from last year this off season,not impressed. He wanders to far from the initial Air Raid. Leach and Texas Tech system is way more simple and very effective. MY OPINION I saw where you wrote that in another thread. Can you elaborate on how he gets too far afield? He tries to get cute with the formations and various tags. QB often looks confused and the precision in not there like Mumme and the Leach coached teams. Franklin almost never run the basic AR concepts, a ton of empty,empty Y-cross with a ton of tags(none work)quick screens not nearly as effective . Leach runs Y-stick,Shallow,H-Wheel,Mesh ,All Curls,Jailbreak the entire game. I may be that Leach is a better playcaller and does a better job of breaking down film. Or better overall staff?
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Post by Coach JR on Jul 2, 2008 5:15:02 GMT -6
I saw where you wrote that in another thread. Can you elaborate on how he gets too far afield? He tries to get cute with the formations and various tags. QB often looks confused and the precision in not there like Mumme and the Leach coached teams. Franklin almost never run the basic AR concepts, a ton of empty,empty Y-cross with a ton of tags(none work)quick screens not nearly as effective . Leach runs Y-stick,Shallow,H-Wheel,Mesh ,All Curls,Jailbreak the entire game. I may be that Leach is a better playcaller and does a better job of breaking down film. Or better overall staff? Ok, thanks. Any comment on the run game part of the offense?
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 2, 2008 10:08:18 GMT -6
Texas Tech runs the ball pretty solid. 1 back dives with the OL fold blocking. Lead draw/Iso is a good play for them. Leach more a Z-Quick man from under center also.
Troy runs more QB power from UF/Tebow like formations. They also run Speed Sweeps more often. 1 Back run game was avg at best,but the played 3 SEC teams on the films
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Post by coachorr on Jul 2, 2008 11:42:48 GMT -6
How would I go about getting more info on Leach and Mumme?
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Post by brophy on Jul 2, 2008 12:07:36 GMT -6
correct me if I'm mistaken, but the whole "air raid" lineage is based on basic particular concepts and packaged with philosophy. It is funny how these same people have had varying personnel, and the offense "suddenly becomes something else". BYU-NCSTATE-USC-TEXAS TECH-TROY-VALDOSTA STATE-GEORGIA SOUTHERN-KENTUCKY-etc....
If you want a good crash-course the '99 Oklahoma faux playbook thats available in the download section is a great indoctrination.
If you want a LOT of information, SEARCH for "Franklin" in the passing section and set the date for 1200 days (video,diagrams, explanations,articles). You may very well break the Internet doing that.
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 2, 2008 12:24:05 GMT -6
brophy,
I agree, but don't you think it is interesting that the Airraid guys going back to when they were at Valdosta and UK, didn't even have shallow - one of the most central concepts - in the playbook? They didn't start running that until later, when they got it from Shanahan. Remember Mumme was basically a straight 2-back guy. It was Leach who was all about going to 4-wides all the time, and shallow is a 2x2 combo.
Mumme did it for protection reasons (among others), and when Leach went to OU and his first couple years at TTech they struggled at times with so much 4-wide. They had a bowl game vs. Iowa where the blitzes caused them problems. They slowly evolved the wide-splits over that time period.
If you watch cutups of the 99 OU team they ran a lot of 4-wide but a lot of the wrinkles and things hadn't really developed, and they did not do the wide splits. Teams that blitzed them creatively they struggled with at times, though others like A&M who thought they could man blitz got decimated.
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 2, 2008 12:49:08 GMT -6
I have 1998 UK cut-ups and they ran the shallow
I dont think shallow is a central concept for all air raid coaches.
Troy & Texas Tech may only call in 3 times in a entire game.
Texas Tech call Y-Stick and 63 Scissors at least twice EVERY series
Crabtree gets his yards on 91 Z-Post,96 All Curls,Backside Slants (Away from Stick ) and Jailbreaks
I feel shallow is a T. Franklin/High School thing.
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 2, 2008 12:56:43 GMT -6
Tech runs shallow plenty. It's a go to route of theirs (along with mesh) when they aren't getting good defensive keys. (By the way how can it be a T. Franklin thing if you say Troy only runs it 3 times a game?)
And like I said, when they FIRST got to UK, in 1997. I broke down several of their games that year, and shallow was not in the package. Whether or not that was because they didn't trust Couch to be ready (unlikely) or they didn't feel they had the receivers, I'm not sure. Yes it was in the 1998 book, they got it that offseason. Remember too, shallow was unequivocally not in the BYU/old-Chow playbooks.
My point is that the Airraid is both a philosophy and a playbook. The plays are the tools by which the picture gets painted. But there are other tools they could have chosen. There's only so much of what you can do on a football field.
And there's nothing magic about the plays. What makes Leach good if not that he calls stick a lot. If it wasn't stick it'd be something else. It's the practices, the repetition, the commitment to throwing the ball, the freedom he gives the QB. The places are the final piece of a rather comprehensive puzzle.
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Post by raiderpirates on Jul 2, 2008 13:49:11 GMT -6
Seems lkike the shallow became an answer to the bail tech as teams went 1/4s or to the 1/4,1/4,1/2.
Early into its use the form dominated coverage and as the defense caught up you needed a new series tag. A shallow has longer development time, can be a hot conversion, can work to or from the front of a play.
The timing is the issue, if someone is going to declare on the shallow they've got a long wait for where it is headed, and few can chase across the field that well to cover from its initial point.
You either go quarters or the hybrid to stop the trips and NCAA on top of the routes. That means something else is coming open underneath and the shallow takes it over.
As for the run, Tech has not run as well into bowl games. Teams get more time to ready for it, and Tech does all runs off checkdowns. By then teams are armed with the keys to determine what the QB is using for checks, and the extra time for calling a check lets them arm the tech and extra rotation to attack the gaps and spacing employed in the system.
Which team turns the spacing into a weakness instead of a strength in terms of line play is who will win. Take away freebie runs for short yardage, etc. and suddenly the Tech pass game loses some of its balance as the conversion demands increase. Now the LB know when to think run and when to jam the mesh, etc.
The zone blitz probably works better on the Leach series too for the mesh. They're going to settle the WR vs. big tacklers and the blitz isn't giving the same time for the route to develop on that look.
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 2, 2008 15:17:15 GMT -6
Tech runs shallow plenty. It's a go to route of theirs (along with mesh) when they aren't getting good defensive keys. (By the way how can it be a T. Franklin thing if you say Troy only runs it 3 times a game?) And like I said, when they FIRST got to UK, in 1997. I broke down several of their games that year, and shallow was not in the package. Whether or not that was because they didn't trust Couch to be ready (unlikely) or they didn't feel they had the receivers, I'm not sure. Yes it was in the 1998 book, they got it that offseason. Remember too, shallow was unequivocally not in the BYU/old-Chow playbooks. I just watched 9 Texas Tech and 8 Troy games from last season. Tech doesn't run the shallow concept alot, they tags guys on the shallow routes alot. I dont go by philosophy,clinics or hearsay. I get the film and watch for myself.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 2, 2008 16:17:15 GMT -6
Seems lkike the shallow became an answer to the bail tech as teams went 1/4s or to the 1/4,1/4,1/2. Early into its use the form dominated coverage and as the defense caught up you needed a new series tag. A shallow has longer development time, can be a hot conversion, can work to or from the front of a play. The timing is the issue, if someone is going to declare on the shallow they've got a long wait for where it is headed, and few can chase across the field that well to cover from its initial point. You either go quarters or the hybrid to stop the trips and NCAA on top of the routes. That means something else is coming open underneath and the shallow takes it over. As for the run, Tech has not run as well into bowl games. Teams get more time to ready for it, and Tech does all runs off checkdowns. By then teams are armed with the keys to determine what the QB is using for checks, and the extra time for calling a check lets them arm the tech and extra rotation to attack the gaps and spacing employed in the system. Which team turns the spacing into a weakness instead of a strength in terms of line play is who will win. Take away freebie runs for short yardage, etc. and suddenly the Tech pass game loses some of its balance as the conversion demands increase. Now the LB know when to think run and when to jam the mesh, etc. The zone blitz probably works better on the Leach series too for the mesh. They're going to settle the WR vs. big tacklers and the blitz isn't giving the same time for the route to develop on that look. seriously, dude ... is this how you actually talk?
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Post by dlsmith99320 on Jul 2, 2008 16:24:49 GMT -6
The running plays are simple lead, traps and draws what formation and what you teach is up to you. The pass plays mesh,y-stick,y-cross, all curl quick outs and screens are able to be put into any formation as well. The names of the formations have some meaning to a point otherwise you could rename them as well and do whatever you want. It is a guideline not a complete stick it in and everything works program.
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 2, 2008 17:27:01 GMT -6
I just watched 9 Texas Tech and 8 Troy games from last season. Tech doesn't run the shallow concept alot, they tags guys on the shallow routes alot. I dont go by philosophy,clinics or hearsay. I get the film and watch for myself. Roll your eyes all you want, I note that you don't bother to rebut my main argument, which is that for these guys the actual plays are secondary to what they actually do. And if Leach isn't using it as much - that just reinforces my point! But I guess the problem is you, as usual, have no point at all. Unlike you, apparently, I'm not here with any axes to grind or pet theories to propound. I'm just trying to understand what makes teams tick. I don't even particularly like what Franklin and his disciples do either, but I think it's silly to try to argue that the shallow is not a rather ubiquitous part of the Airraid package. Label it "HS" all you want, they all use it. My point was that, despite its use, it is a fairly new concept when compared to some of the other packages, such as mesh. So one doesn't become Airraid just by running stick, y-corner, shallow, and mesh. You either get what I'm saying or you don't. And I've seen plenty of film. If you think anything I've said is based on mere hearsay, then I'd suggest watching some more. Enough.
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Post by brophy on Jul 2, 2008 17:32:43 GMT -6
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Post by coachgreen05 on Jul 2, 2008 17:46:45 GMT -6
Roll your eyes all you want, I note that you don't bother to rebut my main argument, which is that for these guys the actual plays are secondary to what they actually do. And if Leach isn't using it as much - that just reinforces my point! But I guess the problem is you, as usual, have no point at all. Unlike you, apparently, I'm not here with any axes to grind or pet theories to propound. I'm just trying to understand what makes teams tick. I don't even particularly like what Franklin and his disciples do either, but I think it's silly to try to argue that the shallow is not a rather ubiquitous part of the Airraid package. Label it "HS" all you want, they all use it. My point was that, despite its use, it is a fairly new concept when compared to some of the other packages, such as mesh. So one doesn't become Airraid just by running stick, y-corner, shallow, and mesh. You either get what I'm saying or you don't. And I've seen plenty of film. If you think anything I've said is based on mere hearsay, then I'd suggest watching some more. Enough. And I said Ive watched over 15 games from this past season. They don't run shallow concept very much. They usually tag a guy on a shallow route sometimes. Hatcher runs the shallow more than any of them combined. You dont become AirRaid by running stick,mesh,y-corner and shallow,then how do you become AR,whats your interpretation?
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Post by tog on Jul 2, 2008 17:53:51 GMT -6
Roll your eyes all you want, I note that you don't bother to rebut my main argument, which is that for these guys the actual plays are secondary to what they actually do. And if Leach isn't using it as much - that just reinforces my point! But I guess the problem is you, as usual, have no point at all. Unlike you, apparently, I'm not here with any axes to grind or pet theories to propound. I'm just trying to understand what makes teams tick. I don't even particularly like what Franklin and his disciples do either, but I think it's silly to try to argue that the shallow is not a rather ubiquitous part of the Airraid package. Label it "HS" all you want, they all use it. My point was that, despite its use, it is a fairly new concept when compared to some of the other packages, such as mesh. So one doesn't become Airraid just by running stick, y-corner, shallow, and mesh. You either get what I'm saying or you don't. And I've seen plenty of film. If you think anything I've said is based on mere hearsay, then I'd suggest watching some more. Enough. And I said Ive watched over 15 games from this past season. They don't run shallow concept very much. They usually tag a guy on a shallow route sometimes. Hatcher runs the shallow more than any of them combined. You dont become AirRaid by running stick,mesh,y-corner and shallow,then how do you become AR,whats your interpretation? who cares what it takes to be called AR? if you like the concepts---use them if not-don't studying how the different coaches of this ilk evolve is one thing being able to or even trying to peg one or another as "this" or "that? who cares? sounds about like the east coast rapper vs the west coast rapper crap
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