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Post by davecisar on Jun 11, 2008 11:42:59 GMT -6
Evangels varsity roster BTW has 9 kids that are Frosh or Sophs that are over 200, so that would mean 11 kids over 200 as Juniors or Seniors. similar to your numbers. My guess is in many HS programs a good number of those underclassmen dont see the field or suit for varsity, they play JV, Reserve or Frosh ball at 5A-4A level ( A and B here). Obviously you are closer to the situation than most, but obviously they seem to be doing a lot of things right. I think the main difference is.. Evangel being a private school has mostly kids who are there as football players because they want to be there to play football.. where as my bigger kids.. they are just like.. "sure, I'll play".. their kids work hard and they RARELY have the big heavy's that are just playing to play.. their kids put in the work year round and are very much in shape.. Most of the other inner city schools around here have those 6'2 300lb'ers.. sloppy.. but big.. we dont.. have 2 kids who I would consider sloppy.. the other "big" kids.. are maybe a little pudgy.. but they are still good looking kids.. would I want some bigger kids?? Sure, even if they were sloppy.. I wouldnt have them on the Oline.. but would be nice to play some bigger D-linemen.. Most teams around here rely on these big boys to lean on you while their little scat backs run by you.. We are trying to bring a new style of football to the area.. mainly because we have to.. we have NO one to lean on people.. lol There may be something to some of that. For the Millard schools, all 3 are PUBLIC and have boundaries etc so some of that can be tossed out the window. BUT the demographic is very suburban and for the most part ( exceptions to every rule) are upper middle class to well off to very well off. All 3 Millard Schools field huge numbers and huge kids. While this may not be PC, the demographic may have a lot to do with it. As is the case with your area, the inner-city schools here by and large have smaller numbers and much smaller kids. One Class A inner city school I know very well suits up just 25 on Varsity and 14 at the frosh level. They would be overjoyed to have 11 kids at 200 or bigger. Why? Ive coached kids in both areas and lived in both areas, one area for 5 years, the other area for 9 years, this is my personal hands on experience, not a wild guess. The suburban kids by and large have great support systems, are well fed and often see role models on an every day basis sacrificing, working hard and making good decisions. They get fed well too, lots of meat and good protein. While there may be some of that with the inner-city kids, we see much more Single Parent families, parents that NEVER come to games, poor role modeling, poor decision making, and kids that come home to meals of tortillas and margarine, cereal and chips etc Im not sure it has much to do with "pushing" as it may be due to immediate surroundings and immediate influences. Much easier to coach in the suburban areas, in the inner-city we are as much social worker as we are coaches. We see it at the youth level as well. While there are freak year abberations, we play Millard teams that often have 5 "striped" players ( players over the 170 lb running back weight) accross their lines while we may have none, 1 or sometimes 2. We have kids that drop because the only day they can visit their dads in prison is same day we play games etc. While the suburban teams you may have to play social worker to 2-3 kids, in the inner city, you may have 2-3 kids you ARENT playing social worker to. So yes we understand the dilema first hand. Not sure how those guys in the inner city have done great turnarounds but anxious to learn. An Omaha innercity team played in the state title game for the first time in nearly 30 years this last season and they were loaded with some DI talent at the skill positions. NEw coach, new attitude etc and a huge school, but an abberation, not the rule.
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Post by coachhortman on Jun 11, 2008 16:26:46 GMT -6
To give you a little background, unforunately my son has chosen not to play at the school where I coach at, he has been tied to his friends for years and I am not about to strip him of that. He got to go to our weight workouts today as I took him to work with me to practice his kicking. He was amazed at how we took kids that are in the seventh and eighth grade though their workouts. The older kids had already finished for they have a different time slot. We do a lot of hands on instruction with these kids in our middle school or jr high. They learn good form and after they learn the form then we let them start actual lifting and gaining strength after they learn the basics. Every varsity coach particpates with our middle school/freshmen weight workouts. We let the 10th though the 12th work out together and the 7th though the 9th work out together. During the summer when we practice 7 on 7 and get ready for games with our opposing teams, we even let our middle school practice at the same time as our varsity with their own qb and receivers. They learn the same offense with the same routes with our varsity coaches and our middle school coaches are there to learn from our varsity coaches. It is a big advantage to us for everyone to be on the same page. Our baseball program is ran pretty much the same way. Our twos are as good as many schools in district that we play in district. They will score as many points against some of our teams that we play that the first teamers do. So they get valuable experience. Noone I know of around here practices their middle schoolers the way that we have done this year to get ready for August. Calvary might. You don't have to weight 300 lbs if you are in shape and been in the weightroom. So ariraider is right that most of our upper classes are solid 200 pounders if they weight that much because of the workouts they do since Jan.
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 7:47:37 GMT -6
perspective (ht/wt) of the type of athletes we're talking about...... [gvid]-3802258989694287627[/gvid]
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 8:14:38 GMT -6
Thanks Matt, great hit at about the 2:05 mark. Seems like a pretty competitive game, enjoyed watching both teams. Ive never seen a defense bop around presnap as much as ECAs opponent on this one.
Looks like the Shreveport kid headed for NU probably wont make it here, he got drafted in the 5th round for baseball last week.
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 8:22:38 GMT -6
If it is the video I'm thinking it is...
that was a 1A Championship game against St.James in 2006.
In 2007, Evangel competed at the 2A level and lost in the finals against John Curtis. I don't believe I've uploaded that game. Evangel (and Curtis) have the size and athleticism of most DIII schools, mainly because their kids work and have the resources. God bless them.
Evangel has won championships at the 1A,3A, & 5A levels.....point being, they are the best of the best in the state, and many would argue in the region / nation.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 9:15:00 GMT -6
If it is the video I'm thinking it is... that was a 1A Championship game against St.James in 2006. In 2007, Evangel competed at the 2A level and lost in the finals against John Curtis. I don't believe I've uploaded that game. Evangel (and Curtis) have the size and athleticism of most DIII schools, mainly because their kids work and have the resources. God bless them. Evangel has won championships at the 1A,3A, & 5A levels.....point being, they are the best of the best in the state, and many would argue in the region / nation. Ive not seen a DIII game, but even the NAIA teams around here have way more than 3 kids above 260 pounds. Maybe not the degree of athleticism of the skill kids, but they really arent very big IMHO looking at their roster:
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 9:30:02 GMT -6
Ive not seen a DIII game, but even the NAIA teams around here have way more than 3 kids above 250 pounds. Maybe not th edegree of athleticism of the skill kids, but they really arent very big IMHO looking at their roster: what exactly is your point?
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 9:42:15 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 10:06:22 GMT -6
high-quality DIII program www.augustana.edu/x1505.xml[gvid]-801558439560843772[/gvid] basing your entire opinion of a program based soley off a ht/wt roster really doesn't add anything to the discussion. If we were quantifying FOOTBALL statements about the program based off of what we've SEEN or EXPERIENCED, it might be worth noting.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 12, 2008 10:43:31 GMT -6
brophy...I have to disagree here. I don't you and Dave are communicating on the same wavelength.
All Coach Cisar is saying is that based on the roster he linked too, ECA is playing a VERY daunting schedule. Thats it. That they are NO LONGER a football program with 7 NFL players over a 3 or 4 year span, yet they are still playing that type of schedule.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 10:48:17 GMT -6
Thanks, I guess size doesnt matter in football. Funny then how so many guys list the sizes of their kids or complain about lack of size so much or the size of their competition etc. Was just correcting an inaccurate statement made by you that ECA has the Size of most DIII teams. As I stated they dont even have the size of most of the Bigger Class A Highschool teams around here from the roster I posted; 32 kids over 200 lbs and 6 over 280 etc. let alone DIII teams. mustangbooster.com/team.htmWith the roster ages and sizes they have now, the schedule they play is impressive to say the least.
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 11:50:31 GMT -6
brophy...I have to disagree here. I don't you and Dave are communicating on the same wavelength. All Coach Cisar is saying is that based on the roster he linked too, ECA is playing a VERY daunting schedule. Thats it. That they are NO LONGER a football program with 7 NFL players over a 3 or 4 year span, yet they are still playing that type of schedule. looks like we are all saying the same thing, then. DIII comment relates to the size/makeup/quality of the athlete. I don't know that anyone was implying that Evangel wins because they are bigger than anyone else. The size they DO have is USDA select, compared to the typical cut of comparable beef. They win because of the quality of their program, and the quality they have (athletes,coaches,facilities) would rival that of DIII colleges, was what was implied. The congruency of the statements made by myself and airraider is only saying that Evangel has some quality athletes with size/build. The comparison is then being made with other rosters (?) that have kids who weigh more. I don't think anyone is debating that, which is why I asked why the comparison was relevant (how many kids weigh more than ____)
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 12:08:03 GMT -6
Evangel (and Curtis) have the size and athleticism of most DIII schools Atheticism probably, size probably not My guess is they dont have the size, numbers or average age of any of the teams they play out of conference, certainly a tribute to their program.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 13:01:31 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 13:15:51 GMT -6
you win the pissing contest, Dave. It is clear I have no clue what I'm talking about
....now we can get back to better things today.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 13:35:54 GMT -6
Your very own words Matt, your mistake. Like many I dont know much about DIII football and your statement said these schools had the SIZE and athleticism of most good DIII schools. When factually examining the rosters, we find that is not true by any stretch or spin on the size issue. The facts kind of got in the way of that one.
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2008 15:06:06 GMT -6
Your very own words Matt, your mistake. Like many I dont know much about DIII football and your statement said these schools had the SIZE and athleticism of most good DIII schools. When factually examining the rosters, we find that is not true by any stretch or spin on the size issue. The facts kind of got in the way of that one. for the sake of argument you are misrepresenting subject and debating semantics. How many Evangel games have you subjectively witnessed in person? The roster numbers are not impressive. The depth of roster quality IS. We are talking about the quality of that "size" on the roster. I have seen rosters filled with tons of 6'5" 300lb HS fat-bodies, we are talking the difference between a SOLID 200lbs and a soft 200lbs .....the volume of quality athletes is what is being discussed in this thread, that is a credit to what Evangel has built through the youth program that there, that develop their kids and nuture them into extremely competitive athletes that fight to the end. Playing teams like Longview and Lufkin, who would honestly give some college programs fits....programs that are Nationally ranked, and Evangel hangs in there with them. That cannot be said about some of the better HS teams in the region. Substitute "size" for "caliber" of athletes on the roster and maybe you will see what we're getting at. We're not talking about the measureables of what the program says, we're talking about the quality of athlete (size+strength+speed+explosiveness). We don't have to argue straws here - because we're not arguing weight / height quantity. TO THE POINT: The "size" difference is akin to a 8oz filet mignon and 2lbs of meatloaf. One would argue that there is more 'size' in the meatloaf because it is 2 POUNDS and dwarfs the prime cut. You are actually getting more "beef" with the filet because it is 100% pure Grade A, while the meatloaf is full of filler and really isn't all that great.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 12, 2008 18:49:05 GMT -6
Matt,
As you have said a number of times you dont communicate well, this is another one of those times. Ive been very consistent on this thread ECA does not have big kids, ( compared to other Big High Schools and OBVIOUSLY not anywhere near the size of DIII Colleges per your contention) ECA plays a great schedule and seems to do quite a bit with what they have. Tiny roster, very average or even below size ( compared to top teams in the country) and average age much lower than their competition.
You used the words size and athleticism, so when someone says size and athleticism thats what most think they mean LOL. Size meaning height and weight and athletcism which meaning speed, quickness, body control, strength and athletic power.
Ive consistently said on this thread those that would criticize them are the jealous types that poke at anyones success to bring them down to their level. But I guess those that want to go on tangents and fly off the handle will do so regardless of the words, even if they for the most part agree with you.
The next time someone whines about not having any size or cant compete because they are tiny or they are getting outmuscled by someone that has size please trot all that back out for them.
I havent watched any ECA games live, but is that really the measuring stick, you arent going to comment on a College Football team like NU this year because you havent seen them live? OK I did see the Game where Evangel was soundly beaten by a very talented De LaSalle team a few years back, but other than that just the internet clips and following them here etc. great kids, well coached.
Im and ECA fan, I support their greater mission and can empathize with the unfair rock throwing they have to endure.
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Post by coachhortman on Jun 12, 2008 21:57:32 GMT -6
Hello Coaches, I understood where both of you were coming from. While we may not weigh a ton, we are stout strength wise. Like I heard my dad say growing up that dynamite comes in small packages. For instance Cederrick Tyson is our dynamite whom is our slot receiver/running back. They really are put though the ringer during workouts. I wish I had been with ECA during the BIG days when they had Byron Dawson, Stevie Lee, Cole Pittman on the defensive line. I came along a little too late Matt Merry (before he went to Calvary) and Byron Dawson are two of the better strength coaches that we have had at ECA. Cpuple that with a defensive coordinator like Ronnie Alexander and a offensive genius in Denny Duron we have been able to compete against larger opponents. The only part that has changed is the defensive coordinator job that has Byron Dawson as the DC now. Coach Dave, if you are ever in the area, please come by for a game if you are not coaching. I know that Airraider, Brophy, and CoachD5085 has witnessed some games live. Be glad to have you, matter of fact that goes for any coach on this board.
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