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Post by coachsky on May 27, 2008 18:16:45 GMT -6
Need some advice and help on this challenge;
I coach with a nice group of guys. I've been on staff here two years entering my third. The vast majority on guys on this staff have coached together for 6 to 8 years.
In general most of the position coaches and coordinators do not place a high value on technique and commit very limited time to Indy time with each position group. I have to push them to give me 10 minutes daily with my position group. This works sometimes in season when we have to install some new stuff, but in general and especially in Spring Camp I want 15 to 20 minutes.
I am a teacher first and I think you have to teach and drill technique, over and over and over. I am frustrated because it gets lip service for a while then a few coaches complain and we are back to 20 minutes of inside drill and 20 minutes of team. The guys I coach with in general are "old school", there is nothing new under the sun, run over a couple of bags and then start hitting. It's very frustrating.
We spend about half of the time emphasizing technique and individual skills sets compared to the last program I coached in. They compete for state championships and this program has made the playoffs once in the last 8 years. When a kid uses terrible technique, they just right it off as the kid being not very good. It's never that he wasn't taught very well or drilled enough.
I've raised this issue with the head coach multiple times and he agrees that we have to lay a proper foundation and if we are not technically skilled all the group and team time is not profitable. So he gets on board, adds 5 to 10 minutes. A few days later the old timers complain, and we are back to the same issue. He has trouble holding ground.
What would really help me is articles, books, white papers, DVDs, or tapes on program building or practice planning that support my premise that indy time and learning technique are more valuable in the end than endless scrimmaging in group and team time.
Our HC always seems more inspired and likely to change when I hand him an article or film and ask him to take a look or consider this. It seems like he owns it more and rolls it out to other coaches saying "alright I read/or watched and I want to start doing this".
Any resources that you have in this area would be helpful.
I know our HC appreciates that I come prepared every day with a detail drill and practice plan. I'm always adding new stuff and variations. He knows I work my tail off in off season to learn new stuff and I spend a lot of time with my positing group to help their skills sets. He just needs some supporting stuff to take a strong stand with his longtime / older schools assistants.
I'm just looking for a consistent 15 to 20 minutes a day to coach my kids up. I require that there be a specific purpose in group and a very specific play script during inside drills etc.
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Post by phantom on May 27, 2008 18:32:25 GMT -6
Six to eight years together makes them old-timers? LOL. There's nothing "old school" about their approach. It's just bad coaching.
Technique is critical and teaching technique is a matter of creating habits. That requires reps and that takes time. If I had hair I'd tear it out if I had only ten minutes of fundamentals period.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 27, 2008 18:38:34 GMT -6
what size school is this?
is there not enough coaches to break the practice up into individual positions ... i.e. does every position have a coach?
are you trying to work the JV out with the Varsity (and/or also the freshmen?) ... is this why they don't want individual? drags out practice too long or can't get enough quality reps to make it worthwhile?
why do they not like individual? do you take that extra 20 minutes and tack it on to a group or team setting?
sounds, to me, like they are not being very efficient with their time, you guys have a lot of standing around (due to the long team periods) and it is 'easy' for those coaches ...
but, if you guys are winning, then i guess they don't feel the need ...
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Post by schultbear74 on May 27, 2008 19:17:08 GMT -6
That is old school Phantom. It goes back to the one or two coach program. It does seem a waste of good coaches if they are not permitted individual time. I think that it also wastes a bunch of reps that you could be getting. I knew guys, most of them dead, who used to coach that way.
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Post by fatkicker on May 27, 2008 21:12:08 GMT -6
if these coordinators aren't using a super fast calling system you may have to teach technique during team time......
it's not as good as indy period, but it may be all the time you get
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Post by coachsky on May 27, 2008 23:31:26 GMT -6
Six to eight years together makes them old-timers? LOL. There's nothing "old school" about their approach. It's just bad coaching. Technique is critical and teaching technique is a matter of creating habits. That requires reps and that takes time. If I had hair I'd tear it out if I had only ten minutes of fundamentals period. I guess old school wasn't a good term. They coach probably how they were taught when they first started and don't update their skill sets. I try and stay away from calling them " bad coaches" they love the kids and camaraderie. They just haven't done it any other way and aren't really interested. They firmly believe that it's all about getting "good kids". " you can only coach what you got". I'm trying to convince them that we can teach these kids techniques and drills that they can apply on the field that will increase their individual performance by 20-25%. Collectively we will be a more fundamentally sound team. I have coached in two other HS programs that were much more successful than this program. The current HC has been great about taking suggestions and incorporating new ideas, like a new dynamic warm up program, update the S&C program, installed a new defense. I feel very fortunate to have been able to contribute with that type of input. But I can't get a lot of traction in this area. It's primarily because about three or four of the long time coaches don't want to do anything different. Our Ber Coach does the same 4 bag over drills, angle tackling, and pass drops every practice. He's done with Indies in less than 5 minutes and wants to hit in group. He sends his guy for water and they stand around for 5 to 7 minutes Whining to start group early. I've asked him about block destruction drills, or read progressions drills, he looks at me like I'm speaking Greek. Our HC admits they need to sharpen the saw and update their skills sets but he struggles with holding them accountable and simply says they are pretty stuck in their ways, "what are you going to do". I suggested he "inspire them or fire them" and that didn't go over real well. The HC doesn't like conflict. My only real chance is to change their thinking. Hoping I can find a resource that will spark a new way of looking at things. |
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Post by coachbdud on May 28, 2008 0:17:25 GMT -6
it is invaluable, i dont know if you can ever have enough indy time
it doesnt matter if your OL knows the blocking scheme for a trap if they dont know how to get off the ball, hand placement, footwork etc.
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
Posts: 228
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Post by kr7263 on May 28, 2008 6:31:45 GMT -6
Visit any successful NFL or DIA practice and you will see basic fundamentals being taught every day. (Go to the nearest training camp or spring practice and invite them with) Speak to any consistently successful coach at any level with any amount of experience and you will find a commitment to sound drills and fundamentals. "Its not what you know, it's what the kids can execute in critical situations"
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Post by coachd5085 on May 28, 2008 9:34:07 GMT -6
I think it is time to fish or cutbait after reading this one. Be point blank with everyone in the room. Ask them direct questions. such as "How do you think the kids LEARN to get off a block, or learn to wrong arm a trap, or learn proper pursuit angles, or LEARN to tackle for that matter. In fact, the tackling issue...how do you guys teach tackling?
Sounds like the Lb coach you describe doesn't truly realize the core skill competencies necessary for playing a LB. Call him out on it.
NOW, all of that said, before you put any advice into play, I think u need to consider some of Huey's questions. WHY aren't these guys used to doing INDY. Why haven't they done it before? Is it simply because they don't recognize what could be taught there? Is it because they are the quintessential "HIT SOMEBODY" coach, or is it that they don't have enough players to come up with realistic drills, and therefore try to teach in group settings. Do they try to teach in the group settings?
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Post by coachorr on May 28, 2008 9:57:09 GMT -6
I was in a similar situation two years ago. No one wanted to do more than ten minutes of indy time with their groups, there were enough coaches to do this by they were not interested. I just did what you are doing. Worked with my peers in a respectable manner, we visited a D1A program. And slowly they came around. I had to give a little as well, but I could give some of my desire for more Indy time, because by the second year, the kids knew what I expected and their was less installation and description of technique and more polishing of what they already knew. The big one for me was "vocabulary" so that I could coach kids on the fly during team times and in games. If the kids had the same vocab as I did, then they could understand quickly what I wanted.
The best resource in my opinion, is this website right here. I find it odd that some many coaches in the world of coaching are really not interested in spending time on a site like this, but would rather just show up on August 12th and start coaching.
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Post by cqmiller on May 28, 2008 10:03:55 GMT -6
Being the DC and LB coach, we go with about 20-25 minutes of individual every day! How can I expect my DE's to squeeze and wrongarm correctly in team if they haven't had the individual practice time to learn it?
I spend the first 5 minutes of individual period on footwork and wrapping up (bag drills with a heavy bag that they must tackle every time through).
Then we spend 5 mintues (or 10 if I feel we need the work) on their FIRST STEP at the snap. Some of the kids complain that it gets "boring" to do the same steps every day, but I just respond with, "If we did it right 100% of the time in team then we can skip it"... usually makes them be quiet.
The next 5 minutes we work on taking on blocks with the correct shoulder (inside) I have them stand 8-10 yards apart and we do 2 reps each shoulder at different angles (Iso-straight ahead, Power-45 degrees, Sweep-90 degreees)
The last 10 minutes changes depending on the day... If we want to work pass for that day, then we go with pass drop technique and landmarks with a football to work on hands. If we want to work run some more, then we will go with form-tackling or some sort of block-shedding drill.
If we don't go over the correct way to do these things in individual, then going team just allows the kids to develop BAD HABITS... Don't want bad habits, because OC's can use those habits they see on film against us. If my WLB is bad at his first step coming forward and staying square, then the OC will run Iso-weak all day because there is no way the LB will be able to close the hole correctly if he doesn't take his correct step. If my MLB is lazy and takes on blockers with the outside shoulder instead of his inside shoulder, then the OC won't waste a blocker on the strongside coming down to seal the MLB, because he will seal himself by using the wrong shoulder, so they can outnumber us on the strongside on counter/iso/power. If we do it incorrectly, then we will get burned... so we practice these things EVERY DAY in indy period.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 28, 2008 11:27:21 GMT -6
'What we put on the field is ours"
Unless that position coach can squat down and crap out a better player, they have 2 choices: go recruit the halls for better players, or teach up the ones they have.
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Post by coachorr on Jun 1, 2008 10:19:40 GMT -6
CQ, good post. I think investing in Indy time and doing the EDD's is an investment that has one of the highest returns throughout the season.
I would add to some of your comments and just say, " Quality Reps, not quantity of reps". I would rather have a guy do two good reps of learning to take on a block for example, than 15 bad ones.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 1, 2008 11:25:44 GMT -6
coachsky-
Obviously, you understand the overwhelming importance of fundamentals and repping them. In terms of resources, I would do two things:
1.Search this board for clinic notes and power points on the subject. Find primary sources from top college coaches pertaining to program building, schemes, etc... They will all include an emphasis on being fundamentally sound.
2. Get as many guys out to clinics as possible. The coaches will be inundated with good coaches preaching fundamentals. This may not change some of their minds, but it will open up your HCs eyes more and give you a leg to stand on when the subject comes up.
To be honest with you, if you do the above and still can't fix things, I'd find a new job... I coached on a staff just like yours several years ago. I was in the same spot you are in; pleading for more individual time for the kids and fighting about it the whole way. \
It got to the point where they started taking indy time away from me when I brought it up. We started out with 15 minutes, I finished up the season with NONE. I resigned after the season was over; everyone else on the staff was fired.
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Post by 1bignasty on Jun 1, 2008 19:42:46 GMT -6
I would have to ask if this program two platoons or do the players play O and D? Do you guys practicd O and D every day? If so 20-25 minutes of Indy would be impossible. If you do both each day and assuming you do the following:
O Indy
Group Run
Skelly
Team O
Special Teams
D Indy
Interior D
Skelly D
Team D
Getting 10 minutes would be a great thing. You have to spend all spring and pre season shoring up technique and then hit it for tthe 10 mins you get daily in season. Two platooning is great, but not possible or feasible in many programs. I think you emphasize and coach fundies on the run in every period.
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Post by joe83843 on Jun 2, 2008 2:21:03 GMT -6
If we don't go over the correct way to do these things in individual, then going team just allows the kids to develop BAD HABITS... Don't want bad habits, because OC's can use those habits they see on film against us. If my WLB is bad at his first step coming forward and staying square, then the OC will run Iso-weak all day because there is no way the LB will be able to close the hole correctly if he doesn't take his correct step. If my MLB is lazy and takes on blockers with the outside shoulder instead of his inside shoulder, then the OC won't waste a blocker on the strongside coming down to seal the MLB, because he will seal himself by using the wrong shoulder, so they can outnumber us on the strongside on counter/iso/power. If we do it incorrectly, then we will get burned... so we practice these things EVERY DAY in indy period. Amen Cqmiller!! Amen!! This is why teams that aren't fundamentally sound usually stink...and coaches that know how to work film usually have a HUGE advantage come game day. Coachsky, If you're looking for literature that might help, "Play Football the NFL Way" by Tom Bass could be useful. I haven't read it, so I'm not sure how much it will help persuade your HC. I can, however, say I've heard great things about how it explains and teaches technique, and the articles from it I've read (some are online) have been REALLY helpful in my mind. Someone earlier mentioned linebackers, and I can agree 100% after reading a bunch of his articles on how linebackers shed specific blocks that if they don't know what they're doing, an offensive blocker with really good technique will beat him pretty much every time (even if he has somewhat of a size advantage!). Maybe if you can talk your HC into reading it he'll discover what a huge advantage your team will have if they learn the techniques. Hope that helps! |
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Post by kcbazooka on Jun 2, 2008 5:19:13 GMT -6
I would be interested to know how St. John's breaks up practice. Is Kuenzel still here??? From reading Gagliardi's book I assume that that most of his (shorter) practices are team oriented.
If the coaches are teaching during team time I think things can get done - but often, some coaches become spectators during that time.
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