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Post by airraider on May 24, 2008 10:10:26 GMT -6
I had a HC who used to create an excel document with EVERY play the other team ran in a 2 or 3 game sequence..
we then used all the data to see this and see that..
but then.. we went from the most recent game.. and ran every play verbatim just like they did.. down/distance/hash
They could have ran the dog tick pick reverse once and lost 40 yards on it.. and WE would run that against our defense in practice..
Do you feel that this is a waste of time?
I know some people.. maybe Brophy.. feel that its best to take their 5 or so best plays and work on how to stop those.. and the rest.. just play football..
I too and leaning towards that school of thought..
And further.. really.. how many "plays" are there in football.. you stop the lead, trap, coutner, power, and sweep.. you have tackled over 70% of everything you probably will see in a season in terms of the running game..
Sure you will still have option football.. the jet..
But if you can stop those base plays.. you can now work on the "other" things..
I guess my question is.. how many of you work hard on getting your defense to stop the trap week in and week out.. or the lead.. even if that team doesnt run it very much?
And how many of you simply show them EVERYTHING that this week's team runs?
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Post by coachbdud on May 24, 2008 10:14:06 GMT -6
i do all the scouting work for our Defense and run our Scout O. I always run mostly their base plays and counters- but i feel it is important for the kids to see everything else they do, any trick plays or tings they do differently
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Post by coachd5085 on May 24, 2008 10:45:27 GMT -6
I think you can break those type of plays into two categories : 1) situations where only 1 or 2 players need to be wary 2) situations where the entire team needs to adjust.
Examples of the first situation would be double passes, halfback passes, reverses/reverse pass, hook and lateral etc. These are designed to take advantage of a SPECIFIC one or two players, and as such, these plays don't need to be repped in a normal team setting. A 5 minute period on Wed, and another on thursday should suffice.
Examples of the second situation might be Unbalanced lines, tackle over sets, tackle "out" sets (tackle split wide from the line, much like the SUPER INNOVATIVE all eleven type sets) swinging gates, lonely polecat, hurry up quick counts, the hidden ball carrier play etc. These should be mixed up in the regular team script, to ensure that the TEAM is prepared for them, since they are designed to take advantage of ANY one or two players who aren't ready to play.
As far as working on stopping base blocking schemes during a week when a team might not run them much, I would say that a well coordinated defense would have things to stop that in their "Every day or every week drills" during the individual periods. So maybe you don't rep a trap in any inside or team setting, but Maybe tuesdays the DL and LB always do a trap/gap exchange period for 10 minutes as part of your core defensive play, or in preparation for someone down the road .
(for example, if you are a serious contender in 5A, you know that you will have to stop the I option or veer offenses, because chances are you will see it in the playoffs (west monroe, acadiana). Last year, if you were a well coached team with aspirations to get to the dome, a spread pass period would have helped you weekly, since you might have had to face Mandeville, or Destrehan)
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Post by brophy on May 24, 2008 11:21:54 GMT -6
this has to be fed (IMO) off what you've already delivered to your kids in chalk talk scout. THIS is their offense... THIS is why they do it.... THIS is what gives them fits.... THIS is how we can screw this up..... It starts with compartmentalizing the looks you'll see out of base formation. The alternative sets (what still is applicable and what ISN'T). Then work the areas of the field, what they'll do and where (on the field). The scripted scout sessions are like; 2nd & 7+ inside the 40's
1st & 10 on their 20 - 35....
All the while keeping a consistent teaching method. Call the defense to run Call out the D & D. Make the defense align properly to the formation With the formation presented, you can have the players call & response the threats on that D&D and formation. [i.e.; Backed up in their 10, Power-I...."Strong Power!" or "Weak Counter!"]
It is conditioning your kids to say, "okay, X,Y, & Z....so P,D, & Q are irrelevant "(don't have to worry about Dig / Cross inside the 10 yd line......don't have to worry about speed option inside their 15)
This is best emphasized in understanding what, specifically teams run out of Pro, Twins, and Trips looks to the strong/weak side of your defense.
For example, by formation, the WLB should always be expecting Lead Iso versus I formation or I-weak split.....but not at all versus I-strong split or ace formation. Without having to worry about weak Iso, that WLB should progress his thinking to look for the expected primary threat (based on formation)
It is about teaching (pattern) recognition...when you SEE this, in THIS situation, EXPECT thisThis is how you do it at the college level. Look at the NFL Scouting report PDFs floating around - that is how they do it. When you take your game log / scouting reports and put them in a pivot table, you can see the trends based the various factors. If you can plot / predict the trend, you have a good feel for that coordinator's fingerprint. Kids already do this extremely well intuitively......it is the basis of video games. You can use the week of practice to get ready for your opponent OR you can use the week of practice as a "football camp" where you defend every offense and block reaction..... Which one will better prepare you for Friday night? You can teach your kids everything in football, but if they don't know how to apply it (when they will see it and how it relates) then it is worthless.
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Post by airraider on May 24, 2008 11:51:30 GMT -6
Thanks for the the wealth of info guys.. it really helps me out..
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Post by groundchuck on May 24, 2008 13:38:54 GMT -6
I think you also have to decide when watching scout video of your opponent WHY they ran certain plays in those games. They they run off tackle 25x b/c of a personnel mismatch in thier favor, or not run the trap b/c the other team completely took it away by alignment?
You can't stop everything. I also try to teach players via the scouting report an film to get a feel for when they come with thier counters and play actions. For example a DE who doesn't play the boot in practice is going to get "coached up" when we call the bootleg pass and he gets beat. We try the make sure the scout O takes advantage of that in practice just like the other team would in a game. I also think knowing D&D tendencies and personnel tendencies is key and we try and make sure we deal with that in practice.
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Post by phantom on May 24, 2008 17:33:52 GMT -6
I had a HC who used to create an excel document with EVERY play the other team ran in a 2 or 3 game sequence.. we then used all the data to see this and see that.. but then.. we went from the most recent game.. and ran every play verbatim just like they did.. down/distance/hash They could have ran the dog tick pick reverse once and lost 40 yards on it.. and WE would run that against our defense in practice.. Do you feel that this is a waste of time? I know some people.. maybe Brophy.. feel that its best to take their 5 or so best plays and work on how to stop those.. and the rest.. just play football.. I too and leaning towards that school of thought.. And further.. really.. how many "plays" are there in football.. you stop the lead, trap, coutner, power, and sweep.. you have tackled over 70% of everything you probably will see in a season in terms of the running game.. Sure you will still have option football.. the jet.. But if you can stop those base plays.. you can now work on the "other" things.. I guess my question is.. how many of you work hard on getting your defense to stop the trap week in and week out.. or the lead.. even if that team doesnt run it very much? And how many of you simply show them EVERYTHING that this week's team runs? We certainly would not waste time practicing stuff that the opponents don't run. I'm from the school that says figure out the five or so top runs and passes then add in a few that they don't run often but could be dangerous to you. You mention reverse. They may not have run it often and they have not run it well but they have run it. Defending reverse is just a core part of playing defense, though, so we'd have a reverse in our script. As a DC I feel that drawing scout cards and writing the practice script is the hardest job that I have to do. You don't want to play "Gotcha" either way. By that I mean that I don't want to hurt the defense's confidence by running a play that they're very unlikely to run in a certain situation against a defense designed to stop something that they've shown in that situation. I also don't want to waste a rep and throw a scout teamer into a meatgrinder by scripting an offensive play into a stunt that gives the O no chance. There is a finite number of practice reps. Getting the down, distance, hash, and formation tendencies right, matching them up with the play cards, and throwing in a couple of things that can hurt us in that limited number of practice reps is hard work.
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Post by airraider on May 24, 2008 17:50:03 GMT -6
Another school of thought.. such as on the HB passes.. reverses.. Like CoachD said.. those are things that certain players can take away.. Coach those certain kids on playing their assignment in ALL plays.. that way if that trick ever comes their way.. they wont bite..
In our cover 3.. our corners NEVER come up on run until the ball has passed the LOS.. FS runs the alley.. but Corners stay back..
Also.. like he said.. during indo time.. you can teach your 3 techs to read and react to the trap.. same thing with ends and counter..
The reason I am really wanting to know is this will be my first year in dealing with every aspect of the defense.. as apposed to just the offense..
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Post by brophy on May 24, 2008 18:44:32 GMT -6
this will be my first year in dealing with every aspect of the defense.. as apposed to just the offense.. don't be intimidated - a retarded monkey could be a DC for a year and do well. especially, if you're going to live in man-coverage"wing it" all you want on Friday night, but the reps in practice should accomplish something specific...the kids should walk away with something that made them better (for the current opponent) by the end of practice, so when Friday does come it will be déjà vu (the experience, not the club). Defensive Coordinators?" They're darksided, tainted......THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS!!!"
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Post by coachweav88 on May 25, 2008 16:03:11 GMT -6
I'm more of the school that you want to take their top plays away. However, if you've taught your players how to read their keys correctly, then there really shouldn't be any "surprises" Friday night.
I've never been at a place where we script our team defense time.
How I run our scout O is this:
I make sure I show their best plays and run them a lot. I make sure that I run a lot of formations, so that we don't have any problems lining up. I also look for defenders not reading their keys correctly and call plays to exploit them. If I have a play that works well, then I will come back to it again in a few plays. If we still don't defend it, I keep beating them over the head with it until we get it right. Anything that the offense does that will give us trouble scheme wise, I make sure I run so that we get that fixed through the week. (e.g. Scheme wise, we had trouble defending the backside post on a waggle. I will throw it several times in practice just to show that we need to make sure we have that taken care of.)
I'm a competitive person and I try to make team defensive period competitive (within the framework of the opposing offense).
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Post by coachd5085 on May 25, 2008 18:01:49 GMT -6
I've never been at a place where we script our team defense time. This shocks me. Piggybacking on the whole "INNOVATIVE" thread that banged around here for a while, THESE are the things that I think coaches should be exploring to be "innovative". The fact that you have an opportunity to control a situation and make it the most advantageous to you and it is not done in that manner...just baffles me. However, I know it is not unique. The last H.S coordinators I worked with did not do this either...as it was not how they did things 30 years ago when they started coaching.
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Post by bluboy on May 25, 2008 18:08:42 GMT -6
We focus on what the opponenet runs the most. We look for the top 5 formations used and the top 5 plays run. If the opponent runs 2TE wishbone 40% of the time, 40% of our script will have it in. As far as "trick plays or formations," we will take the time to show our kids this stuff, but not spend too much time on it unless it's run a lot.
Our philosophy is "don't defend ghosts," meaning that we want to take away what the offense has shown they do most and force them to do things they don't like or normally do.
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ramsoc
Junior Member
Posts: 431
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Post by ramsoc on May 26, 2008 14:13:42 GMT -6
We show them everything once, but we pound their top 3 run and top 3 pass plays by frequency and by avg gain. So 12 plays we focus on, but most times, some of those plays overlap, so were focusing on 9-10 plays.
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Post by carookie on May 26, 2008 22:27:40 GMT -6
I think groundchuck hit on it, but I think it needs to be restated; you have to look at WHY a team ran it.
If your opposition was playing against a defense with weak DBs but a great run D the week before they play you theyll pass all day; but does that mean theyll do that against you? What if you are solid against the pass and weak on the run, does it make sense to run all of their passing plays when they may not do that?
Work on what they do best/most; make sure your keys are solid and then look at your own team and figure out how they'll take their weapons to attack you.
I can't imagine how much time you'd spend on team defense to run all their plays; especially with the coaching you should be doing between the plays.
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Post by jrarick on May 27, 2008 5:47:01 GMT -6
Two additional keys to building your defensive practice plan and scripts for the week:
#1) If your opponent's coach/coordinator is the same from last year, what did they do to you last year that was successful?
#2) What did you struggle with last week or the week before? If last week's opponent found a "hole" - next week's opponent is likely to try to exploit it as well.
Jack Rarick Holt Football Braintree Athletic Systems
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Post by coachd5085 on May 27, 2008 9:09:40 GMT -6
If you stop and think about it, as you stand on the field before the snap, there isn't a single play they can run that you are not already in position to defend. All you have to do is not F it up once the ball is snapped. I agree with this 100%. I have never understood it when I heard/read coaches saying "Well, you can't defend everything" . Why the hell not?
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Post by Coach Huey on May 27, 2008 11:32:25 GMT -6
If you stop and think about it, as you stand on the field before the snap, there isn't a single play they can run that you are not already in position to defend. All you have to do is not F it up once the ball is snapped. I agree with this 100%. I have never understood it when I heard/read coaches saying "Well, you can't defend everything" . Why the hell not? Agree somewhat ... in that you should have players aligned to make most plays. While I won't go so far as to say you "can't defend everything" or you should be able to "defend everything" some defense are more vulnerable to certain things while having an advantage against other plays. For a small example ... cover 3 would make the defense more vulnerable to the hitch (double hitch from 2x2) but be much stronger vs the fade. cover 2 would be stronger vs double hitch but perhaps more vulnerable to the fade. Same thing applies to the offensive side as well. Sure, by rule you should be able to block every defense, or have routes that can be executed vs every coverage. However, some runs are better suited for certain fronts while tougher to execute vs others, same with pass plays. The key then is not to go "hard-rock mining" ... i.e. running plays against fronts that are harder to block when you could call a play where things go a little more in your favor. Likewise, if you wish to stop certain types of plays then be in those defenses that may be better suited for such. It all comes down to execution ... nothing shocking about that statement.... so, to help our chances with the execution part we want to be in defenses or offensive plays that can be executed more efficiently (i.e. easier blocks, easier reads, etc.) vs what the opponent is giving us or we expect them to give us.
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Post by raiderpirates on May 29, 2008 5:28:25 GMT -6
Scripting a defense is where you go to tactics vs. certain looks or situations when they line up as anticipated.
Sometimes you might call the dogs off at certain times so you can save what it is that tactic will accomplish for a better siuation.
They might have a form your stunt or blitz would get to, but doing it on third and twenty instead of third and eight would limit the chance that it would help you the most before the other team makes its adjustment.
Field position is what it is, but there's a need to increase the yield from your game planning. Ideally you could use that look many times, it's probably best to use it when you anticipate they use it and expect the most from it.
Finding a way to kill their major plays would play to a sense of mastery for the game. If you are killing the core with how you line up, that should be enough. A team evenly matched may try and get the better of a situation, that's where the coaching calls and player execution count most.
Finding ways to bail or get into safer looks from the forms they use best is as important, or more so, than blitzes or stunts.
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