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Post by cmow5 on May 16, 2008 8:40:37 GMT -6
I was trying to think about the NFL offenses and then I realized I dont know what team runs what. I was thinking every time I hear someone talk about the different offenses they always say "Hawaii, runs it or Georgia or LSU etc...." I never hear someone say "hey, thats what the Eagles run" So, My question is What team runs what Offense?
If you know a team and what offense they run could you post it and if you know where they got it from or anything else could you post it.
Or does the NFL run a combination a few different offense's? I can honestly say the only offense I have ever heard of in the NFL is the West Coast and I dont even know who runs that anymore.
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Post by brian94 on May 16, 2008 8:56:31 GMT -6
Denver/Indy = Zone
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Post by brophy on May 16, 2008 9:01:40 GMT -6
There is the "ale" offense.......and the "lager" offense....and the "barley hops" offense..... [gvid]-315823362634816559[/gvid][gvid]5857833218650242798[/gvid] [gvid]-753214621673850236[/gvid][gvid]2050556535557367124[/gvid] I believe it essentially comes down to whether you have a 1-back philosophy or 2-back philosophy, because the passing concepts remain very similiar as is the run game. It usually is some vague distinction based on Gilman vertical game, or Brown's short game, though most differ by philosophy alone I don't believe thera are that many 'exclusive' concepts because the dilema remains; 1) keep it consistent 2) keep it flexible / multiple 3) be able to utilize whatever talent is on hand 4) be able to assimilate what players from other teams (now on your team) already know 5) coaches change from season to season / lack of consistency to keep anything 'unique'
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Post by phantom on May 16, 2008 9:20:51 GMT -6
Green Bay-Lead Zone run and West Coast pass.
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Post by spreadattack on May 16, 2008 9:42:03 GMT -6
The NFL guys are professionals, football is 24/7, and if a guy can't learn a scheme, almost no matter how good he is, he can be on the street. The weekly prep is intense, aided by a lot of money for technology.
So the offenses amalgamate many different concepts or schemes into one. The NFL tends to chew up true believers and turn them into agnostics. Teams do tend to base 3-4 or 4-3 but that is often more for personnel reasons.
The other issue is that, at say the HS level, it pays to run a smaller, self-contained "offense," whereas in the NFL even the best constructed offense can get countered more easily thus requiring you to have more fakes and combos and team specific plays.
The reason the "West Coast Offense" is ubiquitous is because, after the initial 1980s version, the offense defined itself more by the method of preparation and attention to detail rather than a certain set of plays or a formation. If you listen to Mumme or Leach talk they always reference Bill Walsh a lot because, whatever their philosophy for formations or passing, there are certain philosophical generalities that apply. Brian Billick talks about this in his book.
Sometimes NFL teams run a particular offense in the HS or even College sense, but the technology and scouting is so good it both diffuses the information and generates more counters. If a team beat another using mesh and shallow one week, the next week (a) their next opponent is very ready for mesh and shallow, but also (b) lots of other teams will start running more and more mesh and shallow. It's not like having an Airraid team in your conference. Plus think about the impact of boards like this one - information travels much more freely these days.
Now, there are a few constraints on how variable offenses are. Some would say it is due to lack of imagination, but I generally disagree. But NFL guys don't do wholesale wild changes, the changes are incremental. A big reason for this is that there are thirty NFL teams and thousands upon thousands of HS. There's enough HS teams that one of them started running the A-11 offense. Why would an NFL team start running that (assuming the rules allowed it) all of a sudden? Also, they pay QBs so much money and they already have a huge problem keeping them healthy, but it's also clear that it's difficult to win a super bowl (or win enough games) without good QB play.
Someone like Ted Seay will respond that things like the jet sweep don't work in the NFL not because of speed, but because they don't commit to it. I find that hard to believe - there are millions of dollars, players and coaches jobs, and as much technology and facilities as they could want. And there is nothing but time.
So the upshot to answer your question is that most NFL teams run everything you see your favorite high school and college teams, and by that I mean that most NFL teams, by themselves, run everything that ALL of your favorite teams run, putting them all together. Look at Mike Martz's Rams playbook: You will see zone running game (inside and outside zone), the major sweeps and man blocking plays, ISO, power, counter trey, and all kinds of traps to different backs and from various sets; you will see all manner of pass plays, all the major quicks, every set and motion imaginable; a robust dropback game, and an equally diverse play action game. You will find every single one of the Airraid concepts in there, from more sets, with more backside combos, with more options, and QB coaching points up and down. You will find all the main play action combos, plus some others you haven't seen as much. You will see a broad and diverse screen game, read screens, double screens, etc. You'll even find plenty of R&S derivative stuff.
I think if you study the pro books and pro films, you'll find that the easy labels that might work at some levels don't work there. The reason is simply that the pressure is to use almost everything at one's disposal.
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Post by revtaz on May 16, 2008 10:08:33 GMT -6
The NFL in terms of Offense is actually a boring mess.
You have either two back running game or one back running game. Those can either be zone or power (angles). Passing game it is my firm belief that no matter what everyone is going to have a slant in their plans. They may not try to hit it, but they have it.
Other than that, it's all pretty much the same.
Taz
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
Posts: 228
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Post by kr7263 on May 16, 2008 10:18:09 GMT -6
There are no "secrets" in the NFL - coaches & players move from team to team - everything is filmed from multiple angles ( I know each team has access to every game played from 3 angles every week - side / behind / above) - everything is broken down & analyzed.
If a team is successful other teams not only copy but cherry pick players and coaches from that system. I've had several pro coaches tell me "my guys will do anything I tell them - as long as it makes them more money".
The name of the game for the player is guaranteed money - you cant tell your 50mil QB to run gun read option with 6'6 280 4.6 coming off the end and expect him to say "OK coach". You cant expect Chad Johnson to stay "happy" if they run FB Belly 6-10 times a game even if it gains 8 yds per.
The coaches Ive talked to - football schemes are the least of their problems - most of the players are genetic mutants and can do anything they want to on the football field.
Also, you have owner - front office people - pr people who are trying to sell a product. I myself would have a hard time paying several $1000 for good season tickets to watch a Wing-T belly/down/buck sweep offense and I love that offense. I want to see spectacular catches and bone crunching sacks.
IMO it has little to do with X & Os and more to do with "the business" of pro football.
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Post by tvt50 on May 16, 2008 11:30:30 GMT -6
I guess you could call them pro style offenses.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on May 17, 2008 10:20:22 GMT -6
Someone like Ted Seay will respond that things like the jet sweep don't work in the NFL not because of speed, but because they don't commit to it. I find that hard to believe - there are millions of dollars, players and coaches jobs, and as much technology and facilities as they could want. And there is nothing but time. ...and the fear that, if you fail while doing something original, you will be fired and laughed at. Big NFL bucks = big NFL pressure = big NFL lemmings The teams that have innovated in the past have tended to be bottom-dwellers who felt they had little or nothing to lose. There have been exceptions to this rule, but not many -- and not recently.
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Post by wingtol on May 17, 2008 10:41:46 GMT -6
So a bit off the subject but watching some of the cuts brophy posted was just wondering...... If you could watch a live game from the team film angles would you rather that or watch the tv style angles where they focus on the ball and not the field. I think I would rather watch a game from the team film angles.
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Post by Yash on May 17, 2008 13:46:10 GMT -6
You cant expect Chad Johnson to stay "happy" if they run FB Belly 6-10 times a game even if it gains 8 yds per. I disagree, if it got 8 yards a play, they'd run it. 8 yards a play wins, and winning= money. They run the offenses they do because they are the most multiple offeneses to allow the use of the most talent at once.
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Post by brophy on May 17, 2008 16:05:11 GMT -6
With NFL offenses, because it is so organic, it is almost like a living time capsule.
Little things on each down, no matter what team, you see the evolution and traces of various influences like Clark Shaunessy, Paul Brown, George Allen, Sid Gilman, Bill Walsh, Ernie Zampese, Sam Wyche, etc.......
litle nuances, that if you are like Chris spreadattack Brown, represent something bigger than what is actually taking place on the field.
It is interesting from that perspective - but boring in the sense that very little differentiates each offense in the pro ranks.
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Post by levydisciple on May 18, 2008 1:03:29 GMT -6
So a bit off the subject but watching some of the cuts brophy posted was just wondering...... If you could watch a live game from the team film angles would you rather that or watch the tv style angles where they focus on the ball and not the field. I think I would rather watch a game from the team film angles. TV cams really piss me off. I don't want to watch the rush- I want to watch the defense as a whole. Also, I'm interested in learning about route combinations at the moment, so I'd rather watch that then the possibility of a sack. Which, all in all, doesn't happen as often at the pro level, what with so many "dump-off" passes. Just my humble opinion. Granted, for run plays the TV cams are decent. But when the offense is in shotgun, 5-wide, or other "obvious" passing formations could the cameramen at least watch the WRs/coverages? Is that too much to ask?
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Post by phantom on May 18, 2008 5:39:06 GMT -6
So a bit off the subject but watching some of the cuts brophy posted was just wondering...... If you could watch a live game from the team film angles would you rather that or watch the tv style angles where they focus on the ball and not the field. I think I would rather watch a game from the team film angles. TV cams really {censored} me off. I don't want to watch the rush- I want to watch the defense as a whole. Also, I'm interested in learning about route combinations at the moment, so I'd rather watch that then the possibility of a sack. Which, all in all, doesn't happen as often at the pro level, what with so many "dump-off" passes. Just my humble opinion. Granted, for run plays the TV cams are decent. But when the offense is in shotgun, 5-wide, or other "obvious" passing formations could the cameramen at least watch the WRs/coverages? Is that too much to ask? What really annoys me is the replays. Instead of using a wide shot, which could show us something, they invariably show a tight shot of the QB. Useless.
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Post by brophy on May 18, 2008 6:14:01 GMT -6
I really enjoy the behind the offense fly-by-wire camera that ESPN uses. That is a great vantage point to get a quality perspective of spacing and speed, and is a great tool to help players recognize coverage/front recognition.
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Post by spreadattack on May 18, 2008 9:39:52 GMT -6
Someone like Ted Seay will respond that things like the jet sweep don't work in the NFL not because of speed, but because they don't commit to it. I find that hard to believe - there are millions of dollars, players and coaches jobs, and as much technology and facilities as they could want. And there is nothing but time. ...and the fear that, if you fail while doing something original, you will be fired and laughed at. Big NFL bucks = big NFL pressure = big NFL lemmings The teams that have innovated in the past have tended to be bottom-dwellers who felt they had little or nothing to lose. There have been exceptions to this rule, but not many -- and not recently. Well I agree with this. I look at a lot of NFL offenses as encyclopedic examples of mainstream football. If you're looking for bread and butter stuff, it's all there and in spades. But it's no surprise that to develop one of those interesting "side-orders" of football, those are more likely to come from one of the thousands of HS or small college teams who have little to lose, rather than one of the 32 NFL teams which is realistically one pass rusher and a decent WR away from the playoffs. And there is a ton of minute strategy, it's all detail work. Getting this matchup or that alignment. It's a matter of inches. That's why I say I think it is incorrect to say it is boring. Yet I agree that you will not see the big, dramatic changes or developments there. Things like unbalanced sets or funky motions and certain unique series and whatever are going to come from the bottom up, not the top down. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is lemming behavior, but the pressures and the details are different. I mean if you are a 9-7 team, and you could install some whole new series - take up a bunch of time doing it - and it *might* work or it might blow up in your face, would you do it? What if you were HS coach at a losing program? Why not? What do you have to lose there? The incentives are way different. I don't see anything wrong with that per se, but I do understand why people look at different things and find that interesting.
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Post by knight9299 on May 18, 2008 9:52:13 GMT -6
If the NFL loses its cap (which looks very likely) I'd like to believe small market teams would bring much needed diversity to the game. Not being able to run with the big markets in terms of pay roll, they will have to out-scheme them. The Run and shoot would make a come back. Five wide would see even more use than it does today. And they could do it without breaking the bank. It would take a special GM and HC but it could be done.
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Post by knight9299 on May 18, 2008 10:29:47 GMT -6
If the NFL loses its cap? Its popularity and its attendance will take a nosedive. It would be the worse mistake in the history of sports. No argument here. Just thoughts based on this articleI know it's posturing and I'd hope both sides would see the huge catastrophe they are heading for but it could add some flavor to the league.
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Post by brophy on May 18, 2008 11:02:17 GMT -6
. and that means NO TELEVISION deals. YIKES! which is why tom benson bought up the local FOX station.....to temporarily side-step the CBA by collecting ad revenue from Gulf Coast Casinos without sharing it with the rest of the league. However, I would agree with the assessment made above that the removal of the cap would give way to circumstance, that would usher in a situation where a competitive edge is required. However, this ISN'T what Pete Rozelle envisioned. 32 (equal division / conference) teams with an equal shot at winning makes good business sense for the LEAGUE.
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Post by adw30 on May 18, 2008 22:50:25 GMT -6
I think NFL offenses are very creative with formationing, motion, personnel groupings, and with what the teams do in the passing game. If I had to put money on it I'd venture to say that there's not a single passing concept being used in high school or college (even the spread 4 and 5 wide teams) that isn't being used to some degree in the NFL.
The run game is where it seems every team is basically the same since the run game in the pros is primarily made up of inside and outside zone, power, counter, draw, and toss. That's the nuts and bolts of it at least.
There are some noticeable differences from team to team if you know what you're looking for. The Packers in their Thanksgiving Day game at Detroit last season opened the second half by going to the gun on 11 consecutive snaps and six of those snaps were from an empty five wide set. The Browns use a lot of unbalanced tackle over alignments (same types of sets as Ohio State), and of course there's the Pats, Mike Martz's offense, and the Buccanners who themselves are unique in what they do with the various bunch/condensed aligments.
Even the Steelers can no longer be considered a boring offense as they're primarily a one back three receiver multiple offense that likes to air it out.
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Post by tog on May 19, 2008 6:05:46 GMT -6
I don't watch the nfl for the x and o's. I watch it more as a fan to just see amazing athletes do amazing things.
I watch high school and college for ideas on x and o's. The larger talent gaps in high school and college force some divergent thinking. These same talent gaps are what we have to deal with as HS coaches on a team by team basis and a position by position basis.
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Post by levydisciple on May 19, 2008 15:16:10 GMT -6
I really enjoy the behind the offense fly-by-wire camera that ESPN uses. That is a great vantage point to get a quality perspective of spacing and speed, and is a great tool to help players recognize coverage/front recognition. Agreed, coach. There's some games where I wish they had that cam on all the time.
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Post by midsfan on May 19, 2008 15:24:55 GMT -6
SUNDAY NFL Ticket has it if you have Direct TV. You have the option of what your view is. However, I think it is only on games that are on FOX and ESPN. Watched the Packers/Giants at a buddies house and he had it. It cuts to other cameras, but all live game action was from the wire. This is actually the one thing that the XFL was good for. It was pretty neat, pricey but do what he and I did. Marry or Get married to a woman in the medical field and makes more than you do (sorry nurses). My advice marry a pharmacist, good hours and make a lot. LOL!!!
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