Fridge
Sophomore Member
Re-Building the Bocholt Rhinos (18+) in Germany for 2024.
Posts: 148
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Post by Fridge on May 14, 2008 3:57:56 GMT -6
Right. At all, it is "just a game", and you can learn and show a lot of charakter during a "game".
Of course, the desire to win must be at 100%, as in real life too. But in this baseball case... let her get what she deserved.
My football-team had a game 3 years ago (1st of division against 2nd, both undefeated ´til that day). We trailed 9-6, they dominated our OL. Early in the 3rd quarter, their best DE made a clear rib-move, but the Umpire declared it as a strike and the Referee ejected that player. Without thinking, my Tackle went to the Referee and begged him not to eject this guy, because it was a legal move, just technically bad performed, because he really hit the stomach of my Tackle.
They took back the ejection, we won the game with a late TD, and we promoted and got a chance for the national-division. Everything was fine, my guys learned, that sportsmanship is even as important as winning.
Winning a game fair, is great. Winning it, with a doubt in mind, I couldn´t enjoy it.
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Post by wingt74 on May 14, 2008 7:18:37 GMT -6
So, in highschool, tight game, HB bust a long run, is in the clear and will score, 10 yards from the endzone, he rolls his ankle. He doesn't fall to the ground, but is in so much pain that he can't make it to the endzone...
...your kids catch up to him.
What do you want your kids to do?
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mrigg
Junior Member
Posts: 457
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Post by mrigg on May 14, 2008 7:46:37 GMT -6
So, in highschool, tight game, HB bust a long run, is in the clear and will score, 10 yards from the endzone, he rolls his ankle. He doesn't fall to the ground, but is in so much pain that he can't make it to the endzone... ...your kids catch up to him. What do you want your kids to do? The ball is still in play tackle him. If you want to apply this situation to football the player would have to be in the end zone and would only get the points if he could get off the field unassisted. So it will never happen in a football game so stop trying to apply it. The point is your team let them score. The other team gets the points because they put the ball in the end zone or knocked it over the fence. We do our work between the whistles. Your kind of a pansy to take points off the board that your opponent legitimately scores after you blew a play. Why does every one look for an easy way out? Accept your screw up, take responsibility and play the rest of the game.
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 7:49:54 GMT -6
can't compare a baseball/softball homerun to a rolled ankle /football example. Again when the ball has left the playing field it is a deadball situation. In the football case the ball is still live.
And yes I would want my football players to stop the kid from scoring, but I would not want them to "hit him like a golf ball on a tee". Some of us seem to forget that these athletes are someone else's son or daughter. If it was your son or your daughter in some of the examples how would you WANT them treated?
You act as if world domination is on the line, we are talking about athletic contests (in other words we are talking about GAMES).
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Post by wingt74 on May 14, 2008 8:50:04 GMT -6
So, in highschool, tight game, HB bust a long run, is in the clear and will score, 10 yards from the endzone, he rolls his ankle. He doesn't fall to the ground, but is in so much pain that he can't make it to the endzone... ...your kids catch up to him. What do you want your kids to do? The ball is still in play tackle him. If you want to apply this situation to football the player would have to be in the end zone and would only get the points if he could get off the field unassisted. So it will never happen in a football game so stop trying to apply it. The point is your team let them score. The other team gets the points because they put the ball in the end zone or knocked it over the fence. We do our work between the whistles. Your kind of a pansy to take points off the board that your opponent legitimately scores after you blew a play. Why does every one look for an easy way out? Accept your screw up, take responsibility and play the rest of the game. Disagree...the "play" in the softball situation is still going on...it's not over till the player runs the bases...regardless of the ball. It is the same situation. The HB was in the free and clear to score...the baserunner was in the free and clear to score. And injury is preventing them from doing so. The biggest difference is, in baseball, you get to sit and think about the situation, ponder what you're going to do, and then do it. Football you don't have that luxury. I believe that as coaches, the real reason many of you agree with the sportsmanship of carrying around the player is because you have to make a decision with everyone watching. The situation I proposed above is a snap decision your player gets to make. Me personally, injuries are part of the game. Don't help the other team beat you.
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 9:29:53 GMT -6
But "the play" in the softball/baseball game IS over. The runner can't be tagged out etc. etc. because the ball has left the field of play. According to the rules, a sub CAN be put in to run the bases on a homerun for an injured player, so the point is moot. (in other words the umpires of said ballgame were not applying the rules correctly).
And okay, your players do not carry her, so now you sit and watch an injured player "crawl" around the bases and offer not to assist in any way? That makes you a jacka$$ in my book, again we are talking about a game, not world domination.
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Post by groundchuck on May 14, 2008 9:31:11 GMT -6
I want the first guy there to tackle him and the next 2-3 to strip the ball.
The ball is still in play. In the softball/baseball situation the ball was out of play. Yes the runner still has to touch all the bases but the ball is already out of play.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 14, 2008 9:46:51 GMT -6
It's a homer regardless...why not help the kid? So they pinch run and the run scores anyway- at least you don't have to watch the little turd drag herself around the bases...
Comparing this to football is difficult- I really can't see a good comparison.
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Post by wingt74 on May 14, 2008 10:26:20 GMT -6
But "the play" in the softball/baseball game IS over. The runner can't be tagged out etc. etc. because the ball has left the field of play. According to the rules, a sub CAN be put in to run the bases on a homerun for an injured player, so the point is moot. (in other words the umpires of said ballgame were not applying the rules correctly). And okay, your players do not carry her, so now you sit and watch an injured player "crawl" around the bases and offer not to assist in any way? That makes you a jacka$$ in my book, again we are talking about a game, not world domination. Well...ok, if the rules are the play is "over" and a sub can be used to run the bases, then this is what should have happened or her own teammates should have carried her around the bases. If the ump is ignorant to the rules, then like Huey said, the story is false. Run had already scored...the batter being the one to run around the bases isn't part of the play, it's just tradition.
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Post by coachbdud on May 14, 2008 10:34:04 GMT -6
she still hit the homer, the hard part was done.
She could have crawled around the bases to eventually score, the other team just sped up the game
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Post by ajreaper on May 14, 2008 10:51:43 GMT -6
Wow it appears as a society we've gone from justifying things that are clearly wrong to now critizing things that are clearly right. Who cares if it was boys or girls or what sport it was- it was a selfless act to aid another when few would have offered up critism if you chose not to. How about we thank God there's still people out there like that and if we personally have a problem with what was done then take a good hard look at yourself and ask why?
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 11:20:09 GMT -6
I am very proud of what the assisting players did, and I do not even know them. They are an example of what is RIGHT in athletics (even at the college level). I stand by my opinion and really do not care what others think of me because of it. We need to teach athletes what is right, and in my book it was right.
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 11:27:06 GMT -6
We tell our kids to do what is right, even when no one is looking. Yet when everyone is looking and they do something right, they take criticism for it....what message does that send. Again if you were the parent of the homerun hitter, how would you have wanted the situation to be handled? Not sure I could have controlled my emotions watching her be carried around the bases by opposing players in such a great display of selflessness. I get a little welled even not knowing them at all. The coaches and parents, and the entire university of the "assisters" should be VERY proud of them (and I am sure they are). Reminds me a little of the guy who came from the stands to help his son finish a race in the Olympics....he didn't win (in fact he was DQ'ed), but the moment is priceless in my book.
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Post by poweriguy on May 14, 2008 11:27:37 GMT -6
Batter hits home run. Rounding first blows knee out.
Now coach of batting team asks for sub. Umps say it's not allowed by the rules. Coach protests the call immediately.
Ump calls batter out.
Now if the team that called the protest wins the game, then that's it, no harm no foul.
Now if the other team wins, the league commissioner holds a protest meeting on the ruling, and if the umps decision(on the rule) was found wrong, then they come back and play the game from point where the protest was made, with the rule applied correctly.
The thing is, there are rules and procedures to deal with situations like these.
The problem is that the both teams coaches didn't know the rules or procedures to deal with this play.
Now I can totally understand where the girls of the opposing would carry the batter around the bases. And I believe it does show class and should be commended.
But if the coach told his girls not to help the runner, knowing the rules, would that be seen as unsportsmanlike?
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 11:39:50 GMT -6
poweriguy
great question....would like to think no coach would do that BUT if he in fact knows the rules point is moot, he points out that in fact they can sub a runner and it doesn't have to happen (her being carried). if he does not know the rules, and thinks he does, and does not let them carry her (knowing it will be protested) still not unsportsmanlike, maybe not the greatest show of class either,
kind of a no win situation for him...be branded a jacka$$ for not allowing them to help (because he wants to win) or get blasted by peers because he "helped" the other team to win (which in reality he did not BECAUSE the girl DID hit the ball out of the park).
I guess in my view it would be like winning a boxing match/wrestling match because the other guy did not make weight....would I really know if I was better than him? I do not "want" to win like that.
I go in to every game hoping the other team is at full strength so they have no excuses if we beat them (if Joe Blow our all state qb had not been injured the week before and had to sit out, we would have beaten you). I like things to be decided on the field, who has the better team on any given night....
I am strange I know...
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 14, 2008 12:37:35 GMT -6
But if the coach told his girls not to help the runner, knowing the rules, would that be seen as unsportsmanlike? Absolutely. Who cares if they sub or your team helps her around the bags...Let's just speed up the process and get the damned play over with Kid needs help- you help her- regardless of what team she's on. Who cares- she's someone's daughter, albeit a stranger, but be human and help.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 14, 2008 12:51:41 GMT -6
poweriguy I guess in my view it would be like winning a boxing match/wrestling match because the other guy did not make weight....would I really know if I was better than him? I do not "want" to win like that. I go in to every game hoping the other team is at full strength so they have no excuses if we beat them (if Joe Blow our all state qb had not been injured the week before and had to sit out, we would have beaten you). I like things to be decided on the field, who has the better team on any given night.... I am strange I know... Not that strange bro...this is your character showing. I'm the same way- I'd rather lose fairly than win cheaply. Line up, whoop my a$$, and you deserve the win...I'd do the exact same to you. No excuses will be made. Again, this is what sets football apart from other sports- there's honor and integrity structured into the history of the game. Truly deceptive plays are banned by rule (fumblerooski), all of the "stupid" eligibility rules keeps teams from scoring cheap TDs, and illegal substitution penalties keep us from running 10 on the field and lining up, and hiding an 11th guy on the sideline to throw uncovered to. I may have been the dirtiest player on the field- leg whipping, holding, cutting people downfield, blindsiding people around piles...but all before the whistle. I've matured along with my age. Even so if a CB intercepted the ball, ran it back for 6 and then went down in pain, you best believe my dirty a$$ would have been there to help him up-
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Post by cmow5 on May 14, 2008 12:55:01 GMT -6
OK thanks to some research by Coach Huey and a few others we now know that the situation was not what the media made it out to be. Now, the question I have is Does it matter what the situation is.
Lets say the situation is what the media made it out to be and if your players help her you lose the game and a playoff spot. Yes, the girl could still crawl around the bases, but you do not know the character of the girl and maybe she cant make it. Knee is hurt and the last time I checked when you crawl you use your knees. Do you stop your players or encourage them?
Now lets say it was a meaningless game and the HR had no effect on the game or a playoff spot do you feel the same way?
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 13:13:06 GMT -6
i want my players to help...regardless what is right, is always right
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Post by wingt74 on May 14, 2008 14:01:07 GMT -6
i want my players to help...regardless what is right, is always right So if you're the coach of that team...no matter what the scenerio, if the loss means you miss the playoffs, if the loss means you potentially loose your job...would you actually ask your players to do something like this? I'm not saying I disagree with you or anyone else. I am saying that I can see both sides of the argument...meaning, if the opposing coach and players sat by and did nothing to help that girl round the bases...I can't fault them. On the same token, if I was their coach, and saw my players do something like that, I wouldn't stop them...but I don't think I would ask them to do it either. Lot of hypotheticals here now because they won the game, the run would have counted no matter what, and a loss would not have been as critical as I am making it...just food for thought.
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Post by knighter on May 14, 2008 14:16:08 GMT -6
If I get fired for doing what is right, so be it. I am guessing that I would have suitors lined up to hire me. When it comes right down to it I will not, ever, compromise my belief on what is right to win a game, to make the playoffs, etc. If they fire me for dooing the right thing, I didn't want to work there anyway.
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Post by airman on May 14, 2008 14:45:57 GMT -6
I think these things are so rare in today world that this is why they get so hyped up.
We live in a hyper individual world. We always here about individual rights but never iindividual responsibilities.
I compare this to stopping by the side of the road to fix a flat tire. most people just keep on driving by in there little own world. some people would like to stop but they are affraid they might get attacked or injured. then there are those who stop regradless.
I think if you stop to help change a tire, you will most likely help carry an injured person around the bases.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on May 14, 2008 14:55:41 GMT -6
If I get fired for doing what is right, so be it. I am guessing that I would have suitors lined up to hire me. When it comes right down to it I will not, ever, compromise my belief on what is right to win a game, to make the playoffs, etc. If they fire me for dooing the right thing, I didn't want to work there anyway. Knighter, i am trying to decide which is more rare. The act of sportsmanship showed by these girls, or a former D-lineman who has morals. ;D
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Post by lochness on May 15, 2008 6:19:52 GMT -6
I think anything that shows the good side of sports to the public (with the constant, overwhelming media focus on anything and everything negative) these days is a welcome change.
I for one think this is awesome, and I would have been proud if my team had acted this way.
Trying to compare this to a football situation is not going to happen. There's no valid comparison that can be made.
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Post by NC1974 on May 15, 2008 8:02:17 GMT -6
I think this is one of those "letter of the law vs intent of the law". Yes, the team would have been perfectly within their rights to not help her....but if I was the coach and I TOLD my kids NOT to help her...I can tell you this...I would not sleep well that night...my gut would tell me that even though I followed the rules, something would not have been right.
Incidentally, here are a couple of similar - not the exact same - cases from the past.
• In a state championship basketball game in Colorado, Agate was playing Stratton. Agate because of mix-up over keys could not dress in time. The referees called a technical foul, allowing Stratton to begin the game with two free throws. The Stratton coach, however, told his player to miss the shots.
• Consider the case of a basketball team in Alabama a few years ago that won the state championship -- the first ever for the school. A month or so later, the coach found that he had unknowingly used an ineligible player. No one else knew of the problem. Moreover, the player in question was in the game only a minute or two and had not scored. The coach notified the state high school activities association and, as a result, the only state championship in the school’s history was forfeited.
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Post by lionhart on May 15, 2008 17:51:58 GMT -6
my two cents... for what its worth. i UNDERSTAND why the girls did it, and i also understand why its considered the "right" thing. that being said, i dont think i would have done it, nor would i have encouraged my team to either. let me defend my position, because im sure to getg ripped to shreds here : #1, this isnt rec league softball guys, its D II scholarship softball. the issue istn about the "spirit" of the game , or playing fair etc.... these girls are having their tuition played for in return for them performing well in athletics. i know it sounds brutal and harsh (which isnt the kind of man i am), its just the REALITY of the situation. #2 I would never, EVER expect the opposing team to do this for me, my team or even my own son or daughter. if athletics teaches us anything, its to pick YOURSELF up when you get knocked down, dont wait for the charity of others. (especially not an opponent!) again, im not some cold-hearted animal, but this is just the reality as i see it. #3 the key to me here is whether or no the play is really "dead" as some of oyu claim when the ball lands over the fence. i truly dont believe that it is. the player has to round the bases and touch home plate in order for the play to be over. if not, then why on earth would there be an "appeal" rule in the rulebook? the best analogy i could think of was .... if the girl continued rounding the bases after missing first base, then before the pitcher delivers to the next batter, she turns, steps off the mound and throws to first and the umpo declares the runner out - is this playing "cheap"? after all, she DID hit it over the fence, right? someone said the defense has no input on the play once the ball clears the fence, but htis clearly isnt the case... she has to touch the bases in order for the play to be over. if not, then the defense wouldnt be able to appeal to a bas that she may have missed. anyway, my view may not be as popular among the masses here, but im just being honest. and i know one thing, i would rather drag myself around those bases with every fiber of strength i oculd muster, than to have anyone else help me. again, just my view
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Post by easye17 on May 15, 2008 19:31:25 GMT -6
I can't really believe this is actually being discussed. Ball was hit over the fence. Bottom line. FB example is not close.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 16, 2008 5:58:01 GMT -6
for all you baddasses that feel this is not a good thing for a team to do ....
if you were the AD (or supt., or school board, etc. ... position of power) of this school, would you FIRE the coach because they lost and didn't make the playoffs because of an incident like this?
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Post by coachd5085 on May 16, 2008 6:55:17 GMT -6
for all you baddasses that feel this is not a good thing for a team to do .... if you were the AD (or supt., or school board, etc. ... position of power) of this school, would you FIRE the coach because they lost and didn't make the playoffs because of an incident like this? Haha...badasses is a great word. I personally I don't think the uber macho coaches here are as much badass as they are simply: 1) a little out of touch with reality, and 2) enjoying fantasizing about their own toughness while they are in a nice quiet serene setting (sitting infront of their PC typing). For those who think that they could, through sheer toughness gut out a crawl round the basepaths....I invite you to complete a 10-15 minute metabolic circuit/superset simply consisting of 8 squats followed by 8 pushups. No rest between sets. No stopping to catch your breath... just go ahead and gut it out with all of your toughness.
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Post by knighter on May 19, 2008 9:34:11 GMT -6
I am the AD. I would not fire the coach because of this, in fact this would solidify that I made the correct choice in hiring/retaining this person in the first place. This is the type of person I look for when I hire coaches to begin with, as his/her philosophy of the way things "SHOULD" be done is directly in line with my own.
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