|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 12, 2008 10:23:00 GMT -6
When I first started coaching, I hated how head coaches would just practice in the middle of the field all week when the ball is on the hash mark over 80% of the time during a game.
After a few years, I became the Offensive coordinator and realized how different a high school field is from College and Pros.
In high school, the hash mark is 18yds from the sideline. Take away 3 of those yards for the area the lineman take up and now you have 15 yds to the shortside and 35 yds to the wideside.
I realized that it's a waist to put two receivers into that short side because I'm not really spreading the defense out. Through out seasons I started using spread I (3wr), trips, and quads more than doubles and 5 wide.
How many of you take hash marks into consideration when selecting formations and plays? Do you think it makes a difference?
|
|
|
|
Post by cqmiller on May 12, 2008 12:21:32 GMT -6
If makes a big deal in HS, less in college, and almost none in Pro...
Every level places the ball closer and closer to the middle of the field so the defense has to cover both sides, which leads to more scoring...
Being a DC, I have many rules where we default "wide-side" as the strength, because OC's at the HS level tend to run/throw there A HUGE % of the time. I will leave no force to the short-side, because even if they do run a running play that direction, the RB cannot bounce outside too far because the sideline keeps him from being able to outrun my defense down the sideline because he doesn't have enough room.
I think it makes a huge difference at the HS level!
|
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 12, 2008 18:11:23 GMT -6
I take hash mark into consideration. I do put 2 into the boundry and 3 to to the wide side. i split my rec into the boundry 6 yds from the side line and 3 yards from the tackle. we can run just about anything we want from this formation.
I personally like this for a few reasons. we get to bait the defense. most want to bring 4 weak from a noback set. they know they do not have far to so they like to bring pressure from that side.
so we like the option route to that side.
I also like to put the bunch into the boundry and run the passes we like.
you can do it. I realize it would be nice to have college hash marks and get an extra two yards but that is up to the feds to change it.
The run and shoot was developed for the high school field by mouse davis and then to college which had the same hash marks back in the day of neal lomax at portland state.
you could be in trips and the defense has to play you balanced to both sides. to the single side you can run choice but you have great backside(trips routes),or y cross or option route to the back or a two man scat game. to the field you have numerous routes go, slide, georgia and a bunch more.
to the single rec side a nice route is smash vs cover 2. single rec inside releases, back runs a shoot or swing, to the trips side number one(outside in) runs a hitch, number 2 runs a corner number 3 splits the cover 2 safeties with a post.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on May 13, 2008 5:38:15 GMT -6
I love throwing the ball to the short side - esp. a fast screen. Shorter throw for the quarterback and the defense usually calls the strength to the wide side. You get great match ups over there and can really play some numbers games.
|
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 13, 2008 14:44:53 GMT -6
I understand throwing short is effective. The only thing is you don't really spread defenses out to the short side. They are still in the box.
|
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 13, 2008 14:55:11 GMT -6
define in the box? you split a guy 3 yards from the tackle they still have to cover him or you can exploite that area.
now is it like in the middle of the field, no. It just is a different look.
there are other methods you can do to put 2 wr into the boundry.
you can stack them, you can creat a two man bunch.
backside routes the switch, switch corner, drive concept work very nicely.
I still love the option your by the slot into the boundry.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on May 14, 2008 5:48:07 GMT -6
great stuff airman!
another great thing about passing into the boundary is that if they do start rolling coverage over there (seen it) then you can really exploit them to the wide side and it opens up a ton of things.
|
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 14, 2008 11:43:27 GMT -6
__________________-__________F______-__________________
_______________W _-__M _____________-__SS______________
__________________-_________________-_S___C____________
__ C_________E__T___T__E____________-__________________
___X__________T_G_C_G_T ____________-___Y______________
__________________-_________________-__F_Z_____________
__________________Q_H______________-__________________
VS.
__________________-__________F______-__________________
__________W____ M -____S_______SS___-__________________
__________________-_________________-____C____________
__ C_________E__T___T__E____________-__________________
___X__________T_G_C_G_T ____________-___Y______________
_________F________-___________Z_____-_________________
__________________Q_H______________-__________________
I'm not talking about passes or runs. I'm talking about spreading people out at the high school level.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on May 15, 2008 3:41:40 GMT -6
so am I.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on May 15, 2008 3:45:26 GMT -6
That is spreading people out. Look at the other side!!! But, for people to really get thin on the field side, then you have to do something that warrents them to overcompensate to the weak side. Now you have spread people really thin - that is the whole point on offense for me. Make the defensive coordinator think that he has to overcome a weakness in one area (in this case field/boundary) so that you can exploit his weakness in another area when he tries to adjust.
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 9:18:53 GMT -6
another thing to consider when formulating your hash game plan is how a defense plays coverage/force into the boundary and to the field. some teams may NEVER invert a safety into the boundary vs 1 or 2 receivers. for these teams, see how the safety is aligned -- i.e. halves, quarters, etc. so, is the corner the force player or can the safety still be a force player. this may allow you to run into the boundary or even place 2 receivers into the boundary and get a numbers advantage in run game.
won't get into all the what if's ... just throwing out that you should consider how they prefer to play the boundary in determining what you choose to do over there.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 15, 2008 9:24:17 GMT -6
another thing to consider when formulating your hash game plan is how a defense plays coverage/force into the boundary and to the field. some teams may NEVER invert a safety into the boundary vs 1 or 2 receivers. for these teams, see how the safety is aligned -- i.e. halves, quarters, etc. so, is the corner the force player or can the safety still be a force player. this may allow you to run into the boundary or even place 2 receivers into the boundary and get a numbers advantage in run game. won't get into all the what if's ... just throwing out that you should consider how they prefer to play the boundary in determining what you choose to do over there. Good thoughts here...bump |
|
iso
Freshmen Member
Posts: 78
|
Post by iso on May 15, 2008 9:41:34 GMT -6
A balanced formation run from the hash can "spread" the defense more than trips to the field.
If the defense remains balanced versus 2x2, the receivers to the field will have more space to operate in than they would if another defender was pulled over to handle trips to the field.
If the defense rolls to the wide side to handle two receivers, they are rolling away from the two on the boundary side.
|
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 15, 2008 10:08:46 GMT -6
__________________-__________F______-__________________
_______________W _-__M _____________-__SS______________
__________________-_________________-_S___C____________
__ C_________E__T___T__E____________-__________________
___X__________T_G_C_G_T ____________-___Y______________
__________________-_________________-__F_Z_____________
__________________Q_H______________-__________________
VS.
__________________-__________F______-__________________
__________W____ M -____S_______SS___-__________________
__________________-_________________-____C____________
__ C_________E__T___T__E____________-__________________
___X__________T_G_C_G_T ____________-___Y______________
_________F________-___________Z_____-_________________
__________________Q_H______________-__________________
When spreading into the short side of the field, defenses can keep seven people in the box, still account for every receiver, and still have a safety.
When spreading to the wide side, defenses are forced to only leave 6 in the box if they want to account for every receiver, unless they get rid of their safety.
This is where high school hash marks make a difference in spreading out defenses.
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 10:13:19 GMT -6
i'm not following, reno ... in both examples drawn up you can get a run advantage into the boundary ESPECIALLY if you are running the QB.
are you saying one should never worry about putting 2 receivers into the boundary? or, are you saying that if they play certain defenses that 2 receivers into the boundary can be good?
|
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 15, 2008 10:19:15 GMT -6
Like I said previously, I'm not talking about run or pass advantages. If you have tools to get the job done, you can run what ever you want. I'm saying certain formations help clear people out of the box better than others because of how wide one side of the field is and how short the other side is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 10:27:12 GMT -6
Like I said previously, I'm not talking about run or pass advantages. If you have tools to get the job done, you can run what ever you want. I'm saying certain formations help clear people out of the box better than others because of how wide one side of the field is and how short the other side is. that much is obvious ... but, at the same time how they choose to defend your "lack of spacing" on the boundary side can be beneficial to you. how do they declare force into the boundary? is there safety support into the boundary? regardless of the cliche "box" numbers, how is the defense aligned to defend a short side run? how does this affect their wide side support? i thought you were initially saying a spread team (or any formation, really) should not try to use a spread formation AND attack the boundary or, at the very least, should not attempt to put 2 receivers into the boundary. |
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 15, 2008 10:34:28 GMT -6
6 in the cliche "box" or 7 your choice.
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 10:38:42 GMT -6
6 in the cliche "box" or 7 your choice. how those players are aligned is more important than how many. what are their responsiblities within the defensive scheme/coverage is important. total numbers within a front are merely a small part of determining where to attack and how to attack it. |
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 15, 2008 11:17:31 GMT -6
Read the alignment of 6 or 7 your choice.
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 11:28:18 GMT -6
Read the alignment of 6 or 7 your choice. thanks for the advice? |
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 15, 2008 11:50:39 GMT -6
__________________-__________F______-__________________ _______________W _-__M _____________-__SS______________ __________________-_________________-_S___C____________ __ C_________E__T___T__E____________-__________________ ___X__________T_G_C_G_T ____________-___Y______________ __________________-_________________-__F_Z_____________ __________________Q_H______________-__________________ VS. __________________-__________F______-__________________ __________W____ M -____S_______SS___-__________________ __________________-_________________-____C____________ __ C_________E__T___T__E____________-__________________ ___X__________T_G_C_G_T ____________-___Y______________ _________F________-___________Z_____-_________________ __________________Q_H______________-__________________ When spreading into the short side of the field, defenses can keep seven people in the box, still account for every receiver, and still have a safety. When spreading to the wide side, defenses are forced to only leave 6 in the box if they want to account for every receiver, unless they get rid of their safety. This is where high school hash marks make a difference in spreading out defenses. in both instances, there is no safety help into the boundary -- he's aligned in the mof. how good is the corner vs your receiver? how good is will in coverage? go-out or smash could be good (depending on how corner is playing). in the run game you now have an extra blocker for the perimeter even though sam was added to the box he is on the wide side - away from where you are going so of little factor -- not so much a factor in that you couldn't run boundary side here. but, without safety support the receiver is now free to block back inside to seal perimeter - trying to create the alley (edge of formation to X on the cornerback). so, in this instance - by how the defense aligned, not necessarily by the numbers in the box this formation is ok for runs or passes into the boundary. is it always good to do something like this? no, nothing is always good (well ... ;D -- that's another story). but, by just looking at "hey, we didn't spread them to get 6 in the box" without looking at support and alignment then you may overlook a chance to get a decent play... solid plays into the boundary from this set may force them to adjust safety alignment or go to a different coverage (support structure) which then creates other things to the wide side. all i'm saying is don't discount the value of a) running into the boundary and b) placing 2 receivers into the boundary. |
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 15, 2008 14:35:19 GMT -6
We would walk one LB out vs shotgun passers and keep him shaded enough to help on run support. You can't put guys in no man's land at higher levels but these were our best cover players, quite gifted. The boundary side it basically secured us seven in the box.
He could help on runs to his side without being blocked by the slot from spacing inside of that player and being shaded to the formation.
|
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 15, 2008 14:46:35 GMT -6
Thanks raider.
Once again, When spreading into the short side of the field, defenses can keep seven people in the box, still account for every receiver, and still have a safety.
When spreading to the wide side, defenses are forced to only leave 6 in the box if they want to account for every receiver, unless they get rid of their safety.
This is where high school hash marks make a difference in spreading out defenses.
6 or 7 your choice.
|
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 15, 2008 14:54:53 GMT -6
As for play calling, throws to the boundary side can become a ball control item, you have the sideline to spill plays into for a throwaway, to keep runners fresher, to save time with.
When mercy rules are into effect it can take longer to spot the ball off a good run out of bounds with the clock going than a tackle inbounds that would spot closer to the middle.
All of these reasons apply directly to game management for good QB.
There's less space to make the plays or throw people open, but it can be done because usually the defense has shifted to deny the wide side. If you are a speed team you could bait them into trying to go east-west to wide field and match it with speed, but a slower team will have little choice than try to overload to field side so you stay contained to the boundary.
|
|
|
|
Post by RENO6 on May 16, 2008 9:23:22 GMT -6
We all want to dublicate what the NFL and College teams do but in High school, using formations that pull defenses to the wide side is the best way to spread out defenses.
|
|
iso
Freshmen Member
Posts: 78
|
Post by iso on May 16, 2008 9:50:30 GMT -6
I don't want to duplicate what NFL and College teams do. I want to coach high school football because the kids are as important as the schemes . . .
|
|
|
|
Post by briangilbert on May 16, 2008 10:12:11 GMT -6
I'm a little late getting into this but
What reno created as an example is 8 man front football. I don't care if you're 3x1 or 2x2 8 man front football IMO is not something you want to be playing against the spread. Hence no ally player to the boundary in his example and the corner as a force player.
Now If I were playing a team with 2 high safeties playing 7 man front football I think that running 3x1 on the hash can help you for a couple of reasons.
A) It can take the ally player out of the game to the field
B) You will get 6 in the box
C) Most HS teams run only 1 or 2 coverage's against 3x1 so you can run beaters in space.
|
|
