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Post by flexspread on May 6, 2008 12:03:30 GMT -6
I was wondering how many of you flip flop your OL? I'm seriously considering doing this with a Strong side and a Quick side, and I was wondering what some of you think the pros and cons are to doing this? Thanks.
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Post by coachnichols on May 6, 2008 13:12:52 GMT -6
Pros:
Linemen will work vs. the same (side) front, which would obviously be beneficial in cutting down the amount that has to be taught and learned. This could also keep defenses from keying on a weak link in your personnel as easily. I like it because it is it cuts down on what a kid is going to see on Friday night and gives him that many more reps vs. what he will see.
Cons:
Depending on how you number your holes and/or teach your backs, it could make more work for them. Stance too, that's a good point yellowjacketo. I have players put their dominate hand down regardless of what side they are, but if a coach had them keep the inside hand down that could be problem for some.
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Post by yellowjacketo on May 6, 2008 13:19:02 GMT -6
Coach I have done it at the college level, to me it is a personnel issue. Such as bigger, slower kids on the strongside, but it may be difficult to run counter trey with them. Advantages- they see the same looks/fronts, so their confidence level in their assignments should be greater, thus allowing them to play more aggressively; it can help your pass protection by allowing a slower T to have more time to set on the DE because he is wider or you can use your TE to help. Disadvantages- will they switch their stance when moving to the other side? How much do you use 5 step protection ( need for the outside leg back). Movement and technique must be learned in both directions(again stance may be an issue). One point on the stance, I have found that if they are in a 2 point they can change their feet more easily than with their hand down. To me these are the most important issues to consider. Good Luck
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Post by spartan74 on May 6, 2008 13:44:11 GMT -6
we used this for a few season. we did it because we had to, we were short on linemen so we flipped sides. it is nice having having a strong side, but unless you make a effort to disguise things, opponents catch on quickly. I think if done right you can utalize the stength on play and the quickness on the other, but i think my concern isa that you limit yourself witht he plays you can call. you would not run a power to your quick side. maybe others have had better success, but i do not beleive in it.
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Post by flexspread on May 6, 2008 14:15:13 GMT -6
I'm going to be running split-back veer, mostly out of a pro set. My thinking is this:
Plays are numbered with even #s to the strong side, and odd #s to the weak (quick) side. As the SG, you can get more reps against the front that you will most likely see, and it seems easier to come up with rules.
The biggest cons that I can see is that my QB will need to know which side is the strong side so he can make the appropriate audibles (If we are in pro left and the play was supposed to be outside veer and we need to change to 10 midline, he needs to remember that 10 is to the left). I'm flipping my RBs along with the line so that the FB is on the strong side.
The QB confusion could be erased by saying the even #s will be to the right and the odd #s will be to the left but: then my SG will need to know what he does on 12 and 13 Veer while on the right side of the line and also what he does on 12 and 13 veer while on the left, and it seems that he would have to remember twice as many things. Opinions?
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Post by phantom on May 6, 2008 15:23:31 GMT -6
We used to do it for the reasons mentioned. In addition, wew've recently talked to a college coach who did it because of pass pro. He said that pass pro takes so much work that they need to cut down practice reps in the run game. Having a strong side rep only certain only certain plays and the weak run only certain plays cuts down on the reps needed in the run game, he said.
We stopped doing it because of depth. We didn't have two Strong guards, two Weak guards, etc. so some guys were having to learn both sides anyway. As others have mentioned, we did felt that it limited us somewhat.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 6, 2008 16:15:36 GMT -6
Just my two cents regarding numbering.....any program that I have been associated with that flipped their OL, numbered PLAYERS and not holes. So..If you ran "36 belly", you were running behind the 6 end...If you were running the 24 counter...you were running at the 4 tackle..etc. Right or left, doesn't matter...where is that 4 tackle.
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Post by kurtbryan on May 6, 2008 18:19:28 GMT -6
When we ran predominantly Pro Style Offense and I formation stuff, we never flip-flopped the OL because we wanted to get more done in practice, keep things simple and get our OL guys comfortable vs. many fronts, etc.
We still have our I package and will use our traditional Pro Style Offense about 10- 15% if the time in 2008 with the aforementioned rules above.
KB
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Post by flexspread on May 6, 2008 20:58:05 GMT -6
Coach D, I like the idea of having a "2" Guard, and a "4" Tackle. I think I'll use this. I was kind of caught because if I run 12 inside Veer, I don't want the ball to be run between the C and SG, I wanted the ball ran up the SG's near butt cheek. I think having him be the 2 Guard could help my kids hammer this home. Thanks coach.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 6, 2008 21:12:29 GMT -6
flex---what you are describing is a matter of path and aiming points. I would never recommend having the "numbers" system ever replace coaching points on paths. I actually prefer systems without the back/hole system. Teach a kid a path/rule based on the play name..teach the OL a rule based on the play name...
Example : Half check Scat on 1 half..formation scat...play. "check" means the qb will check the direction at the line.
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Post by wildcat on May 6, 2008 22:33:42 GMT -6
We flip flopped in college. "24" was the off-strong tackle play. Didn't matter if I lined up on the right or the left side. 24 was always coming between me and the TE.
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Post by coache67 on May 7, 2008 7:08:51 GMT -6
We did this for two years out of neccessity, but we don't anymore. One thing I would add is that you need to have a call that puts the TE on the weak side occasionally. We just made a flip call and this allowed us to become less predictable.
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javid
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by javid on May 7, 2008 7:31:32 GMT -6
My problem is i have big slow tackles. I have put guards in there at practice but give up a lot of size when we run the power plays. What drills do you use to get them faster on the veer release. We preach 100 yard dash but get sun dial speed.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 7, 2008 8:45:10 GMT -6
I think there are two main reasons to flip your OL
1) to simplify blocking rules. The "Strong Tackle" only has to learn one set of rules, as certain plays are run to him, and certain plays run away. (For example, Buck sweep run to him, and Belly weak run away in the wing-t)
2) to take advantge of player match-ups. You might be inclined to run the ball 60-65% behind certain lineman. Flipping the OL negates the disadvantage you might have doing this into the boundary.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on May 8, 2008 10:43:44 GMT -6
I was wondering how many of you flip flop your OL? I'm seriously considering doing this with a Strong side and a Quick side, and I was wondering what some of you think the pros and cons are to doing this? Thanks. Coach: I think it's a no-brainer that cuts teaching in half for your linemen. I also think it works best with a hole numbering system that starts with 1 out wide to the strong side and goes to 9 out wide on the quick side -- but that may just be me...  |
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Post by dhooper on May 8, 2008 11:52:57 GMT -6
When I coach at a school who ran the wing-t we flip the line and they carry there whole number with them. I'm so glad I don't have to run it any more.
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Post by packcoach on May 9, 2008 13:01:04 GMT -6
I played and coached for years in systems that did not flip and all even plays were to the right and odds to the left. I took over a program as an OC about 10 years ago and laid the blueprint for what we were going to do. I worked with an ex-HC who was an OL coach forever and he was flip-flop guy. I was skeptical at first but now swear by it. We name the lineman--strong tackle and speed guard are the quick side, power guard, power tackle on the strong side. Aiming points are taken care of by naming running plays and teaching the concept of each play. For example a 36 Ice is an outside zone play that is not necessarily run at a '6' hole and can be run to the right or the left depending on formation.
The speed guard is exactly that. He's the puller on the quick side while the power tackle is the puller on the strong side. To run ctr trey, we make a call to put them on the same side. This way you fit your OL based on what they do best. Our quickest was the speed guard, the guy that was huge but didn't move well was the power guard, and so on.
I guess the big thing that scared me was, being in a small school, if, for example, the speed guard was hurt what do you do? So we use rule blocking and have 5 different schemes. Then we make sure that guys are interchangeable so that an S-guard can also be a P-Tackle, for example.
Like anything, when you start teaching it (and doing so early--we start at the 7th grade level), over time everyone learns it and is comfortable with it.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 9, 2008 13:21:14 GMT -6
I played and coached for years in systems that did not flip and all even plays were to the right and odds to the left. I took over a program as an OC about 10 years ago and laid the blueprint for what we were going to do. I worked with an ex-HC who was an OL coach forever and he was flip-flop guy. I was skeptical at first but now swear by it. We name the lineman--strong tackle and speed guard are the quick side, power guard, power tackle on the strong side. Aiming points are taken care of by naming running plays and teaching the concept of each play. For example a 36 Ice is an outside zone play that is not necessarily run at a '6' hole and can be run to the right or the left depending on formation.
The speed guard is exactly that. He's the puller on the quick side while the power tackle is the puller on the strong side. To run ctr trey, we make a call to put them on the same side. This way you fit your OL based on what they do best. Our quickest was the speed guard, the guy that was huge but didn't move well was the power guard, and so on.
I guess the big thing that scared me was, being in a small school, if, for example, the speed guard was hurt what do you do? So we use rule blocking and have 5 different schemes. Then we make sure that guys are interchangeable so that an S-guard can also be a P-Tackle, for example.
Like anything, when you start teaching it (and doing so early--we start at the 7th grade level), over time everyone learns it and is comfortable with it.
We are very similar to this... small school, same thing from 7th grade on... we are also predominantly unbalanced (90-%+), so we have a strong and weak side (one guard does most of the pulling... we false pull a lot as well).
Unlike some, we've kept our numbering system even right, odd left. While that is probably not the best way, we haven't changed it because we are balanced some (where our line aligns left, except the Tight Guard goes right), and we numbered that way before we flip-flopped the line, so we just kept it in place. Our kids understand it...so we've just left it alone.
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kdcoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 194
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Post by kdcoach on May 9, 2008 15:38:33 GMT -6
Flexspread, we are also going to flip our line this year and we are also a veer team. (although we run out of I and flex) We feel like we can teach all of the kids our pro side rules because we are going to scoop/cut on the backside on every play. So to us once you learn your positions rules on the pro side the quick side should be easy. Also, we are teaching the play name and number so 14/15 is our outside veer. Even to the right odd to the left but for our linemen it's just the osv so that's what they are blocking for. We designate formation and strenth in the play call so our call would be Pro Right 14 if we're running it out of the I to the right or Flex Left 15 if we're running it out of the Flex to the left. And like the good Senator our kids understand it that way because the 4 hole has always been the b gap on the right side and so on.
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