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Post by davecisar on Apr 19, 2008 15:11:05 GMT -6
This scenario sounds real familiar "Casec11", lol.....I mean, if you think about it......how does one learn a job skill in anything? #1-Either get a formal education = schools, clinics, whatever........#2-On the job training by someone who already knows what they're doing = apprentice or asst.......or....#3- just get thrown into the frying pan and learn by trial and error.....I'd wager, that most youth coach's are the two latter cases, many being the third choice? I agree with Dave in that......"most" folks don't go into an endeavor, with the idea of "doing the worst possible job they can".......it just looks that way at times, cause = inexperience.......sometimes all the dvd's....books....theory...studying.....etc...(while very important).....aren't as valuable a teaching tool, as good old fashioned, getting out there, messing up and getting your a$$ beat ! Sure, but going to clinics to hear a College or HS coach go on about Zone Blocking or a Typical Coaches Choice DVD isnt going to help these kinds of guys one iota. They have to learn how to break down things to teach to kids and how to present it, they need to know:what you need to teach, what not to teach, priorities, YOUTH football training , techniques, schemes, practice methodology, how to manage games etc. I dont even want to think about how sorry the game day was for these kids. I think most guys just dont know they arent good football coaches. the American Idol example. They blame the kids for the teams poor performance, when most of the time it is them. They just dont understand what is possible, what a great practice looks like, what it takes to get great execution or even what it looks like. BTW in the first league I coached in a former very successful DII HC ( he was also a former DI asst) was the HC of his grandsons team. They were TERRIBLE, this in a draft league where the talent levels are REAL even. He didnt know what they could and couldnt do and how to cummunicate/teach to little kids. It's a different game in many ways. Just because you played HS or College football or even have coached HS ball doesnt always mean you will be an effective and efficient youth coach.
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Post by casec11 on Apr 19, 2008 16:46:09 GMT -6
Dave, there were other circomstances contributing to the 0-10 (only 4 kids on the team who have everplayed before, only 8 kids a week befor our first game vs. teams with 35 kids and cuts...one of our 8 was a cut from another program). I am not talking about just our team I am talking about the 7 others
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Post by davecisar on Apr 19, 2008 17:13:07 GMT -6
Coach,
So few players so close to the begining date is the symptom of something big wrong somewhere.
Ive never heard of a team of 11 players playing in a Select league. Most "select" leagues are just that, "selecting" from many with the remainder either not playing for that team or moving to "B" or the IN-house teams. The Select teams Ive seen carry anywhere from 25-52 players.
I like the "select" then B format to match equals etc and get everyone on a team comensurate with their abilities.
With 8 kids a week before the first game your team would have went 0-10 up here as well.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2008 5:31:13 GMT -6
This one is REALLY bad. Hear the coaches laughing, they have no clue this is a bad drill.
Injury/lawsuit waiting to happen. Poor kids.
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Post by casec11 on Apr 20, 2008 7:04:51 GMT -6
Coach, There was something big wrong, the first year of the program they had many bad/terrible coaches, they drove kids away. The board asked those coaches not to come back, kept the ones they believed were teaching football and tried to find new ones. This is when I volunteered, I was placed as HC of the 12-13yr old team this team was in the worst situation of them all. Only 1 kid came back to play from the year before because the coach was that bad, I convinced two more to come back, and give me a chance as a coach. Our first couple games we were not competitive but as the season progressed we got much better and were in a few games at the end. Kids who had never played were becoming studs. At the end of the season we had 18 kids on the roster because the kids would tell there friends, but only 12 to 14 kids a game. But even though we went 0-10 we had improved so much that many coaches came up and telling us what a good job we had done. The best part is the kids and parents told us what a good time they had how much they learned and that they will be back next year (this was the goal. We stressed fundementals) This went for the whole program… out of 7 teams 1 had a winning record(went to playoffs) another had 3 wins and 1 had 1… But the change in the program is evident. The directors are doing a good job building it up but when coaches are hard to come by some times you have to take what is there. The league was impressed by the turn around and voted us in as permanent members
This is the first May we might have enough kids to have spring practice like the other teams we play and our goal is making the playoffs.
I did not mean to take this tread in another direction, but thought it was pertinent to “terrible coaching”, because it is an example that teams or programs can recover, with experience and weeding out, hopefully we are headed in this direction. Stories I heard from kids about the year before include, coaches feeding the kids redbulls before the game, coaches not showing up, or leaving practice in the middle of it, coach getting knocked out by a player, coaches fighting ect…
We had a coach last year on one of the teams(he was asked not to come back) come late or not show up and his players would be loafing around on the fields, what do I do in a situation like this? I felt bad for the kids so had them be our scout team, but I was fuming mad at the coach.
Dave it is definitely a good Idea to show those clips of what not to do, because some coaches just may not know.
-Case
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2008 8:44:43 GMT -6
Sounds like you guys are heading in the right direction, but the whole group definitely needs some YOUTH coach training. As you have seen it is very difficult to compete when attrition is so high from poor coaching and consistent losing, it is a downward spiral. Starting from scratch is easier to do than the situation you landed in. You can carve out your little enclave and stick with the age group, but eventually you end up getting players from the kids that move up from other coaches teams, that hurts you. Those that havent coached youth football, just don't "get" that part of the equation. Thats why so many great looking athletes are roaming the HS halls today and NOT playing HS football, they had a poor youth experience. But that's haw it is up here, the well coached teams conistently win and retain player, the others dont. I couldnt imagine coaching a "select" team with 12-14 showing up on game day, thats would be a bloodbath up here Why didnt all 18 show up? Ive never seen a coach just not show up, where were his assistants? If I had enough coaches on my team, I would incorporate them into the non team portion of my practices. We dont do a bunch of team stuff in the first 45 minutes of practice or the last 10 minutes so it wouldnt hurt much. I guess scouts would make sense too. Best of luck to you coach my guess is much better season next year if you are able to stay with the same group as they age up.
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Post by casec11 on Apr 20, 2008 10:45:06 GMT -6
Why didnt all 18 show up? Different reasons, ranging from Injuries, parents being late to bring them and missing weigh ins (I would ask them to be there 1.5hrs before), vacations, death in the family, and a 3 kids were from very religous jewish families and their parents would not let them play on certain Jewish holidays. When your dealing with low numbers you cant do much about it.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2008 12:05:25 GMT -6
Coach,
Thats a tough one. In the last 8 seasons I can think of maybe 4-5 games where we didnt have every kid there, not counting 1 that broke his arm ( he was there running the chains)
When you start out with so low a number you dont have much leverage, understand the deal.
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trojan
Junior Member
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Posts: 494
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Post by trojan on Apr 21, 2008 6:56:21 GMT -6
Going one step further, it sounds like if a local youth organization doesn't supply it, it would be in the best interest of the game, for the local Varsity Head Coaches to invest in the youth football coaching enrichment, by bringing any of those guys along to clinics and / or ensure that ALL those working with the kids are indoctrinated with a Best Practices of coaching. I think this is the key. I would bet that many youth coaches would like to be coaching under the lights on Friday night. If that is correct, then they may want to hear what the varsity coach has to say. If the HC puts on a free clinic with some grub, it would give him an opportunity to motivate the coaches. He and his staff could properly instruct them on techniques (with position coaches teaching position coaches), and maybe even convince them that his offense is good for them. Varsity guys are pretty good at managing a practice, and would be a great help. Did I mention the free food?
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Post by brophy on Apr 21, 2008 7:40:04 GMT -6
Although there is no immediate benefit to the Varsity program, the slightest bone a HC could throw to the youth's way makes a world of difference.
Just being acknowledged is a major show of appreciation, let alone calling a youth coach up personally and inviting him to a clinic FOR him.
We've done this at other places (requiring Varsity players / coaches to officiate the youth games) and holding a Saturday afternoon hands-on clinic (no grub....bummer).
I think the most under-valued compensation is being included (youth players being acknowledged during Varsity halftime).
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Post by davecisar on Apr 21, 2008 15:58:30 GMT -6
Going one step further, it sounds like if a local youth organization doesn't supply it, it would be in the best interest of the game, for the local Varsity Head Coaches to invest in the youth football coaching enrichment, by bringing any of those guys along to clinics and / or ensure that ALL those working with the kids are indoctrinated with a Best Practices of coaching. I think this is the key. I would bet that many youth coaches would like to be coaching under the lights on Friday night. If that is correct, then they may want to hear what the varsity coach has to say. If the HC puts on a free clinic with some grub, it would give him an opportunity to motivate the coaches. He and his staff could properly instruct them on techniques (with position coaches teaching position coaches), and maybe even convince them that his offense is good for them. Varsity guys are pretty good at managing a practice, and would be a great help. Did I mention the free food? Coach, While I agree it makes a lot of sense for the HS guys to do youth clinics, the reason the youth coach would go for most wouldnt have anything to do with wanting to coach on Fridays. Food is good, demos are good, practice planning good, basics blockng tackling, ball security, throwing motion, pass catching, are good, learning the intracies of the offense and defense, not good. Most youth coaches are coaching their kids, the others non dads are usually pretty good and like the freedom they have to run their own programs. Most have normal jobs that dont allow for them to have afternoons off to coach. Ive had a number of offers to HC JH ball and assist at the HS level and have zero interest. Same goes for 99% of the youth coaches I know and talk to. Just an FYI, always good to know your target audience. But make it a great clinic, not like one HS did for us with 40 kids per line running 40 yard bombs.
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Post by brophy on Apr 21, 2008 16:30:17 GMT -6
not so fast, my friend.
Now, I am not a youth coach guru....but I don't buy that explanation for one minute. It may not be feasible for youth coaches to coach HS/college, but I would bet a good majority would WANT to be coaching at that level. I know that is not the case for you, but most of those youth coaches would love to test their competitiveness to go against high-caliber competition and be on the sidelines on Friday night.
I don't know who suggested Varsity trying to teach scheme to youth coaches (nobody did), but fundamentals are fundamentals. Dismissing youth coaches attending a Varsity-hosted clinic is absurd unless you think they should only listen to a youth master coach (gee, I wonder when we'll hear the pitch).
That is why HS coaches go to clinics to listen to COLLEGE & Pro coaches, because it is the pinnacle of talent utilization. They don't all go to hear about scheme.
The Dallas Cowboys host a free youth clinic at Texas Stadium every July, getting 100-200 coaches in attendance. The clinic is taught by the current staff of the Cowboys. It is all about organization and fundamentals, because it is the only constant you can control.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 21, 2008 18:24:47 GMT -6
Do youth coches attend pro clinics thinking they should.could be coaching on Sundays? How about the HS guys that attend pro clinics is their main motivation going because they think they could/should be coaching on Sundays? No they go to gain knowledge. Maybe some youth gusy think they should/could but I wouldnt want most of them coaching for me. I think a number of youth coaches have chimed in that they have no interest in coaching any level other than where they were at. Every year with my org, I would put out a questioneer to my 70-90 coahes asking them why they want to coach for us and what they expected to get out of it, what were their coaching goals in the next 5 years,. Only one guy ever said anything about coaching HS ball and we fired him for being abusive to the kids. 1 in 100's wanted to be a HS coach. I dont think it is a big an attraction as you may think. Think about all the daddy coaches in your league do they really want to be coaching HS ball? I had 2 ex HS coaches on my staff my last year in Omaha etc They knew the deal the hours, lack of freedom/control, red tape, etc etc I had another coach for me here locally, It's great if that is your profession but Im not sure most youth coaches want to be there or actually think they have the skills or want to lose the family time. Biggest complaint from the 100s of youth coaches at the youth clinics I do, not enough youth topics, taught by guys that understand youth football. There are plenty out there that can provide that hands on help other than me. A HS guy that has coached it and understands what MMP means etc is right on, a guy that has actually coached all of the age groups, 6-14 and knows what kids in those age groupings can and cant do. But for most of the guys that attend these, they dont get a lot from how to run the veer option correctly etc or many of the other topics presented.
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trojan
Junior Member
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Post by trojan on Apr 21, 2008 19:26:43 GMT -6
davecisar
I don't disagree with you. I think the varsity guys should gear the instruction to their audience, the youth coaches. I coach 7th grade, so I'm right in the middle.
If I had my way, I'd just want to help coach up the guys you mentioned that are really there for their kids. I think it is great that they are there, and understand that it might not be a job for the next two decades. I'd want them to be prepared for the next few months, though. I'm sure that they want to do their best, right?
My comment about running the varsity offense was selfishness. ;D I prep our kids for the varsity's Wing-T, but nobody preps them for me!
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Post by davecisar on Apr 21, 2008 20:02:42 GMT -6
Coach Trojan,
I promise you if the HS coach offered, it would be great and most of the open minded and commited coaches would attend. Just make sure it is very well organized, on point, short and the topics relate 100% to the subject at hand.
I was only disagreeing with the motivation of the audience and when you're presenting, always important to understand that. For most of the youth coaches it's "How do I make this a great experience for the kids in as simple a way as possible." Trying in most cases just trying not to screw it up too much. They want concrete answers, methods, plans they can use right out of the chute, not a bunch of elaborate debates. Coach: " This is why X makes sense in this age group and this is how you do it in the simplest and most efficient way possible". Lots of hands on demos and film/power points if you have it. Hand outs, golly so many guys come in without any note taking materials, pens, lots of them. Free iced caffienated drinks and food.
As to scheme maybe something along the following from the HC: A Good Scheme has x,y,z Has to be able to do A<B<C Better have 1,2,3 Doesnt make sense if 8,9,10
the same on offense and defense
Areas that need the most improvement: Offensive Line Practice Organization (Most could shave a complete day from their weekly practice schedule if their priorities, pace, and practice methods were optimized and never miss a beat, be better in fact)
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coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
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Post by coachbigelow on Apr 22, 2008 22:41:04 GMT -6
Last year the coaching staff at the high school I am put on a youth clinic for the players to show what we teach our players. It was obviously geared down for the kids, but they had a good time and some of the coaches in the league showed up to watch us work.
I wonder how many youth coaches have ever attended the practice of one of the dominant high school teams. I coached at the 4a state champion school here in Utah and I also helped out a youth team. One day the head coach was sick so I was in charge of practice. I ran it just like we did the high school practice. We were efficient with the players and explained why we ran the drill we did.
BTW Dave when you come to Utah you gonna have time to do some fishing? I recommend doing it and getting up in the mountains while out here.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 23, 2008 6:00:22 GMT -6
Coach,
Watching the practices of any very successful and even horrificly bad teams are always helpful. To gather a few tips on what to do and what NOT to do. When I did my 2 year study, I went to watch dozens of teams practice, I tried to always pick the very best and worst teams to study, interesting experience.
I know Utah is beautiful and has a lot to offer, but we won't have the time to do much of anything other than the clinic this time out. Next time out I think I will bring one of the kids along to do some skiing maybe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 9:43:35 GMT -6
I told ya....Bad coaches do exist
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Post by raiderpirates on Jun 20, 2008 20:35:05 GMT -6
It would be nice to coach other levels for depth of planning needed, playbook expansion, rivalry weeks, etc.
The beginning level is the foundation, things they learn here are carried forward for life. That's what's so unique about it. It's a privilege.
There's improvements to make, new drills and ways of teaching, how we implement skills and line, special teams, etc.
Our HC's main issue with me at the time is my tendency to help other teams with their schemes and instruction on our off days. He doesn't want me helping the team made from players I once coached because they beat us in a scrimmage and lost by six to us in the post season. The rest of the league feared that team because they improved so much. We beat them by well over forty points the time I called plays against them, but I told them they were better than the scoreboard and that their coach had a good plan(he was the best play caller in the league) and those kids rearranged the seeding for all but the top two teams by beating four other league teams after that.
To me, it made our win over them mean more. It also gave my former players on the other team confidence to take with them to new levels. The league is a feeder program to our HS, I think helping teams get better is the goal, because the individual players will all be on a team we root for every Friday in coming years.
He just likes it when we have an edge, but I think you should endeavor to arm the other coaches with additional knowledge so they can find ways to help these players get things done and accomplish goals as a team. Every team that played improved in major aspects of game play. Final scores got closer every week as teams learned to meet the challenge of situations.
Things I'd like to see us do this year that we did poorly last year as drills and in games: 1)angle tackles(the fundamental item in games) 2)improve defensive gaps awareness for 45 and 54 alignments where the ends go 5 to the field and 3 or 4 tech to the short side 3)improved pocket passing from protection and delivery/timing standpoints 4)improved route running, using the MOFO read consistently(one player read it right last year and he can't play this year for new age limits, so the MS gets all the seventh graders)
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sin86
Sophomore Member
Posts: 111
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Post by sin86 on Jul 1, 2008 22:25:28 GMT -6
I have been coaching midle school ball for 10 years and I have never had the pleasure to work with a good coach, but I have learned a lot from the bad coaches I have had the mispleasure to work with. Actually, I think it was because of them that I was encouraged to go out and seek the information. When the head coach I am now working with decided it would be a good thing to do full contact drills on the first day of practice last year and we lost three kids I decided right then and there that I would do what was best for the kids. I am going to take the kids out two weeks earl and work on blocking and tackling progressions.
I agree that one of the problems is that most don't think they have the time or think they know everything (which is what I deal with most often). In public I am loyal to the coach and never say anything negative about him, but I have let him know that I don't agree with his methods. Teaching tackling to him is having them take off running at full speed and put their face mask in the numbers. I teach it to my group using Hugh Wyatt's method. He gets mad at me then reteaches his method when we are in team. He blames my methods for missed tackles in the game. I know this is confusing to the kids but I refuse to teach an unsafe method. Doesn't really matter as the coach went out and found a coach to take my place anyway.
Sorry for venting.
Coach Wyatt was the first source of coaching material I found (nothing much on the net back in those days) ande without a doubt I have learned more from him than any material since. Until the net came along it was difficult to find information on anything other than high school, but the net has really opened up resources and I don't think their are any excuses to not at least be a competent coach. If nothing else get on the boards and ask questions.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2008 11:36:58 GMT -6
SIN86
I suggest you IMMEDIATELY report the unsafe tackling techniques to his supervisors, and DOCUMENT it. Principal, Athletic Director, school district members, and school board attorney.
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