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Post by coachdoug on Jan 29, 2008 21:15:57 GMT -6
I read the rule book cover-to-cover every single year (I've been coaching 15 years), so I know the rules pretty well at this point. I am amazed every year at how little many of my colleagues, and even officials, know of the rules. Here is a list of a few of my pet peeves regarding rules:
1. Pass Interference on passes thrown behind the LOS. There is no such thing. In order for there to be PI, the pass must cross the LOS. Last season we ran a smoke screen to the slot receiver (about 3 yds behind the LOS) and the X receiver took out the corner while the ball was in the air. The coaches on the other sideline were screaming for an illiegal pick. I tried to explain to them after the game that the play was perfectly legal b/c the pass was behind the LOS, and they just started to argue with me, so I walked away. Another time, a team tried to throw a screen pass against us, and one of my guys knocked the RB down while the ball was in the air. Perfectly legal, right? Not according to the official, who called PI. When I explained to him that you can't have PI behind the LOS, he said, "Oh, yeah, in that situation it's holding." No, it's not, but I lost that arguement.
2. Ineligible downfield on passes behind the LOS. Again, no such thing. The pass must cross the LOS for this penalty to be called.
3. 12 men in the huddle. Most officials do not seem to know this rule. There is no rule against 12 men in the huddle at the HS level - at the college and pro level there is, but not at this HS or youth level. Nonetheless, I have heard this penalty called at least 10 times at youth games over the years. For the record, all the NFHS rule book says on the subject (3-7-1) is that replaced players must "leave the field immediately."
4. Illegal motion. If you put a man in motion, all 11 players must be set for a full beat before than man goes in motion. If any player is still getting set or getting into his stance when the man goes in motion it should be illegal motion. Granted, most officials don't call it this closely at the youth level, but that's no excuse for the coaches to not know the rule.
5. Eligilbe Receivers. The only eligible receivers are the last man on the LOS on either side of the snapper and any players in the backfield. Just because someone who looks like a receiver is split out wide, if he's not the last man on the LOS, he is NOT eligible and cannot go downfield on a pass play. A coach once told that his covered up receiver was, in fact, eligible b/c he had a slot receiver between him and the last receiver on the LOS. What???
6. Advancing Onside Kicks. One time I was announcing a game, and the kicking team picked up an onside kick that they had recovered and advanced it to about the opponents 20. The officials held a conference and while they were discussing the play, I read the rule over the P.A. system, and they STILL allowed the play and gave the ball to the Kickers on the 20 instead of midfield. Unbelievable.
7. Maximum distance on any penalty is 1/2 the distance to the goalline. College and pros have different rules for PI and maybe some other penalties, but at the HS/youth level, the maximum distance for any penalty is 1/2 the distance to the goal. I can't tell how many times I've seen officials mark off 15 yards from the 22 to the 7 (or something similar). Just wrong.
8. Roughing the snapper. Very few coaches or officials know that in order for the snapper to be protected, the person lined up to catch the snap must be at least 7 yards behind the LOS. I've never had my guys go after the snapper for obvious safety reasons, but placing the tee on the 7 or 8 yard line instead of the 10 on PATs somehow just seems like cheating to me.
9. Clock rules. At the HS/Youth level, the clock stops until the next snap on incomplete passes, runs out of bounds, change of possesion, after any score, after the end of a period, and after a delay of game penalty. The clock stops until the ball is "chopped" if there was any other penalty or if there was an officials timeout (which include first downs, injuries, equipment issues, measurements, etc.). In one game, a ball carrier got pushed out of bounds, but was still going forward, and the official gave the signal to keep the clock running. I asked him what he was doing and he said that if the runner is touched in bounds, the clock keeps running. Wrong. Again, I lost the argument, but just can't believe that these officials really don't know the rules. I think they just want to get the games over with faster half the time. Maybe he was thinking that if the runner's progress is stopped in bounds (and, hence, the play ended in bounds), then you keep the clock running, but that was clearly not the case on that play.
10. All the NFL rules that do not apply to HS/Youth. Defensive encroachment w/o touching the offense, illegal contact by DBs after 5 yards, no intentional grounding if the QB is outside the tackles, no PI on non-catchable passes, etc.
Anyways, those are a few of my favorites. Can anybody add more?
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Post by casec11 on Jan 30, 2008 8:12:42 GMT -6
I think they just want to get the games over with faster half the time This is very true, many times they are there for 4 or more games and just want to go home. Good post Coach |
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Post by morris on Jan 30, 2008 9:12:08 GMT -6
The 12 in a huddle thing I believe is being called due to the whole "Wrong ball" rule about deceit and such. They call it to prevent the players from breaking the huddle with 12 and then one of the guys running off. Teams get use to it and then 2 guys run toward the sideline and he is uncovered. They tend to call it illegal parcipation (not sure if there is a rule by that name or not)
The other stuff I see a good deal. What is interesting is when you start getting the clip, block in the back, block below the waist deal. Where all are very different calls but most peope do not know the difference.
Taking the step further on the receiver. He also has to have both a legal number and linedup correctly. I believe you also must have 5 players with 50-79 unless in a scrimage kick formation.
Where did you get a copy of the rulebook? I would love to get a hardcopy
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Post by davecisar on Jan 30, 2008 9:21:08 GMT -6
The 12 in a huddle thing I believe is being called due to the whole "Wrong ball" rule about deceit and such. They call it to prevent the players from breaking the huddle with 12 and then one of the guys running off. Teams get use to it and then 2 guys run toward the sideline and he is uncovered. They tend to call it illegal parcipation (not sure if there is a rule by that name or not) The other stuff I see a good deal. What is interesting is when you start getting the clip, block in the back, block below the waist deal. Where all are very different calls but most peope do not know the difference. Taking the step further on the receiver. He also has to have both a legal number and linedup correctly. I believe you also must have 5 players with 50-79 unless in a scrimage kick formation. Where did you get a copy of the rulebook? I would love to get a hardcopy All youth leagues Ive been a part of give exemption to that rule. In HS rules here there is no such thing as a ball being "Uncatchable" which waives any pass interference calls at upper levels but does not at the High School and Youth Levels. The original post was quite good. |
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Post by casec11 on Jan 30, 2008 11:08:30 GMT -6
Our league does not waive the 50-79 rule and eligible #s recievers, and the refs are told to stricktly inforce it... wish they would waive it, only if it is a blow out will they...
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 30, 2008 12:16:18 GMT -6
To answer the question about getting the rule book, just call NFHS at 800–776–3462 or go to www.nfhs.org and click on "Online Publications" and then "Order Online." Better yet, join NFHS (click on "Sign Up" under the Members Only heading). For about $30, you will get their quarterly magazine and an insurance policy (I think it's $1 million, but they may have raised it to $2 million - I don't recall) to protect you from being sued by an injured player, and all of their publications (including rules books) are then available to you online. |
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 30, 2008 12:25:36 GMT -6
Regarding the 12 men in the huddle, Morris is correct about the rationale for the rule. However, I have seen a substitute arrive at the huddle just as they are breaking the huddle and the resplaced player immediately begins to leave the field after the huddle breaks and that still drew a penalty. According to the rules that should not be a penalty - as long as the resplaced player leaves immediatley (which is not defined - although the NCAA rule book defines it as within 3 seconds, so I would think that would be a good guideline) there should be no penalty regardless of how many players are present at the instant the huddle breaks.
The penalty in question - if a replaced player does not leave the field immediately in an effort to confuse the other team - is illegal substition. It is a deadball foul prior to the snap and is a 5-yard penalty. In one of the more stupid rules, if the officials don't see that there are 12 men on the field until after the snap, then it is illegal participation and it is a 15-yard penalty.
The main difference between the two penalties (besides 10 yards) is that illegal substitution is a dead ball foul and illegal participation is a live ball foul.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 30, 2008 18:22:32 GMT -6
Just thought of another one - Cut Blocking vs. Chop Blocking. Most officials know the difference but a lot of youth coaches do not. A properly executed cut block is perfectly legal and perfectly safe. A chop block, which is when a defensive player is engaged high with an offensive player and a second offensive player hits the defensive player low, is illegal (15-yd penalty) and extremely dangerous. I'm always amused when I hear coaches screaming about chop blocks when it's really legal cut blocking going on.
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Post by morris on Jan 30, 2008 19:19:17 GMT -6
Well cut blocking is legal within certain guidelines. This also comes down to league/conference/states in some cases. I know some crews will allow cut blocks while in the gun and some will not.
now I have to disagree a little saying a cut block is perfectly safe. anything an offense or a defense is taught to do yet is not allowed to do to their own players in practice is not exactly safe. DW guys cut the snot out of people yet I have not heard one of them say they cut in practice without protection. While yes it is the NFL there is a reason why people hated Alex Gibbs Oline is because the cut on the backside. It is legal.
Now the chop block is something people do screwup in that it is legal to engage low first then hit high but not the other way around I believe. Most places it does not matter because they are going to call it either way no matter what.
Fair catch is something players screw up. Some do not realize when the ball hits the ground the fair catch is off.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 30, 2008 20:53:51 GMT -6
Well cut blocking is legal within certain guidelines. This also comes down to league/conference/states in some cases. I know some crews will allow cut blocks while in the gun and some will not. now I have to disagree a little saying a cut block is perfectly safe. anything an offense or a defense is taught to do yet is not allowed to do to their own players in practice is not exactly safe. DW guys cut the snot out of people yet I have not heard one of them say they cut in practice without protection. While yes it is the NFL there is a reason why people hated Alex Gibbs Oline is because the cut on the backside. It is legal. Now the chop block is something people do screwup in that it is legal to engage low first then hit high but not the other way around I believe. Most places it does not matter because they are going to call it either way no matter what. Fair catch is something players screw up. Some do not realize when the ball hits the ground the fair catch is off. What I said is that a PROPERLY EXECUTED cut block is perfectly legal and perfectly safe, and I stand by that. I agree that it has to be within certain guidelines - the rules state that blocking below the waist is only legal within the box and by and on players that are on the LOS and in the box at the snap, so that much is a given. Now, maybe I teach it a little differently, but without going into too much detail, contact originates in the midsection with blocker simultaneously lowering one shoulder and rolling into the defender's legs. It is highly effective and in 15 years I've never seen an injury (even a minor one) related to this. And, yes, when we go fully live in practice, the players are free to use it on each other. If you have blockers that are blindsiding defenders with cut blocks where they lead with their shoulder or helmet directly into the defender's knee, obviously that's dangerous, but that's not what I'm talking about. On the fair catch, I would like to offer a clarification. If the ball hits the ground, perhaps the protection granted to the player making the fair catch signal ends (although I do not see any reference to this in the rules), but neither he nor any teammate can advance the ball. Rule 6-5-5 states, "No receiver may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal has been given by any member of the receiving team." |
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coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
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Post by coachbigelow on Jan 30, 2008 23:43:03 GMT -6
Quick question about that cut blocking. Right tackle crashes down below the waist on a defensive tackle at the same time as the right guard who is engaging the defensive tackle. Is that a legal block? Saw it in a youth game and the ref said it was ok if the two players were doing it at the same time on the defensive player at the snap.
BTW I do know how to properly cut block but I keep getting mixed answers by people on whether it was a legal block.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 31, 2008 0:03:00 GMT -6
Quick question about that cut blocking. Right tackle crashes down below the waist on a defensive tackle at the same time as the right guard who is engaging the defensive tackle. Is that a legal block? Saw it in a youth game and the ref said it was ok if the two players were doing it at the same time on the defensive player at the snap. BTW I do know how to properly cut block but I keep getting mixed answers by people on whether it was a legal block. That's a really good question. The rule book says in Rule 9-3-6 that a simultaneous block where blocker 1 is high and blocker 2 is low is, in fact, legal. If the first block is high and the second is low, then it is an illegal chop block. So, I guess the real question is was the block really simultaneous. Based on your description - "right tackle crashes down" and "right guard who is engaging the defensive tackle," I would think not. If the def tackle is lined up over the guard and the guard engages him high first, even by a fraction of a second, and then the tackle comes in low, then it is clearly an illegal chop block. In any event, at the youth level I would hope the refs would err on the side of caution and throw a flag on any block like this that could clearly cause an injury. At the very least, I would hope that the refs would give the blocking team and its coaches a warning that any further borderline chop blocking will draw a flag. There is no reason that I can see why both blockers cannot and should not come in high on this block. JMHO. |
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Post by morris on Jan 31, 2008 9:14:47 GMT -6
The way you describe your cut block I can see as fine. When you get into teams that use the "shoeshine" block one example or a version where contact is between the waist and knee.
The issue we run into is with gun teams and when the ball leaves the FBZ. I could be wrong but I was under the impression that cut blocks, clips and the such were legal in the FBZ as long as the ball remained in the FBZ but once it left the zone the FBZ disappeared.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 31, 2008 9:36:09 GMT -6
The way you describe your cut block I can see as fine. When you get into teams that use the "shoeshine" block one example or a version where contact is between the waist and knee. The issue we run into is with gun teams and when the ball leaves the FBZ. I could be wrong but I was under the impression that cut blocks, clips and the such were legal in the FBZ as long as the ball remained in the FBZ but once it left the zone the FBZ disappeared. That is correct. Rule 2-17-5 states, "The free-blocking zone disintegrates and the exception for a player to block below the waist and/or the exception for an offensive lineman to clip and/or block in the back is not to continue after the ball has left the zone." |
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coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
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Post by coachbigelow on Feb 3, 2008 2:01:21 GMT -6
As I understand it, the only way you can cut in shotgun is if you do it immediately at the snap.
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Post by coachcalande on Feb 3, 2008 10:07:47 GMT -6
Well cut blocking is legal within certain guidelines. This also comes down to league/conference/states in some cases. I know some crews will allow cut blocks while in the gun and some will not. now I have to disagree a little saying a cut block is perfectly safe. anything an offense or a defense is taught to do yet is not allowed to do to their own players in practice is not exactly safe. DW guys cut the snot out of people yet I have not heard one of them say they cut in practice without protection. While yes it is the NFL there is a reason why people hated Alex Gibbs Oline is because the cut on the backside. It is legal. Now the chop block is something people do screwup in that it is legal to engage low first then hit high but not the other way around I believe. Most places it does not matter because they are going to call it either way no matter what. Fair catch is something players screw up. Some do not realize when the ball hits the ground the fair catch is off. "DW guys cut the snot out of people yet I have not heard one of them say they cut in practice without protection. While yes it is the NFL there is a reason why people hated Alex Gibbs Oline is because the cut on the backside" well, we do cut our own kids in practice.(we are an I formation team btw) So now you have heard it. ;DThere are times when we back off and do not cut (usually when we are going thud for example)- tackling is far more dangerous than cut blocking, being tackled is more dangerous that being cut in my opinion and experience. Nobody likes to be cut, its embarassing and frustrating in so many ways. I will not lie and say I have never seen a player injured from cut blocking because I have, our own kid got a broken leg from it, however it was a recurring injury, he did it the year prior and again the year after... I have never had one of my kids injure another player in a game and we probably cut block on 99% of our snaps. (no cuts on wedge) back to the point...cut blocking has to happen in the fbz, both the cuttee and cutter must be in teh fbz and also had to be on the los at the snap of the ball and the ball must also be in the zone at the time of the block. our refs around here allow select teams to cut block backs and linebackers...its a shame. |
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Post by morris on Feb 4, 2008 8:10:09 GMT -6
As I understand it, the only way you can cut in shotgun is if you do it immediately at the snap. This partof what I am talking about. It all comes down to when the refs believe the ball has left the FBZ. A guy can argue the ball leaves the FBZ (which is 3yrds back from the ball?) before the cut occurs. Take that on top of the fact most QB depth in a gun is 4.5-5 yrds and the Oline is as far off the ball as they can get. |
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coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
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Post by coachbigelow on Feb 5, 2008 19:52:09 GMT -6
Well the refs here let you do it as long as you do it as soon as the ball snaps. They even go over that before the games.
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Post by casec11 on Jul 30, 2008 6:28:25 GMT -6
I thought this would be a good "bump" since many are starting now or soon...
Once again an excellent post Coach Doug
Also is there anything new in the rules this season?
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Post by str8outtajerzy on Jul 30, 2008 7:29:44 GMT -6
I thought this would be a good "bump" since many are starting now or soon... Once again an excellent post Coach Doug Also is there anything new in the rules this season? Good bump!! |
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Post by justryn2 on Jul 30, 2008 16:01:11 GMT -6
The one that bothers me the most is lack of enforcement of the rules pertaining to leading with the head or face mask and grasping "any helmet opening." A couple of years ago one my my players was pulled to the ground by a tackler that grabbed the back of the helmet. When I asked the officials about it they told me just what I had seen, the tackler grabbed by back of the helmet BUT; they said that it wasn't the face mask so it wasn't illegal. Rule 9-4-3-h, No player or nonplayer shall: Grasp an opponents face mask or any edge of a helmet opening. I've also had officials that would not through a flag on a player who hit with his helmet because a) it wasn't intentional (that doesn't matter) or b) it wasn't helmet-to-helmet contact (also doesn't matter).
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Post by pwillden on Jul 30, 2008 16:30:40 GMT -6
Very helpful for a first year assistant youth coach.
Thank you,
Paul
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Post by joboo59 on Jul 30, 2008 20:43:57 GMT -6
Another goofy call is blocking below the waist called on the defense. This is an actual call despite the "blocking" by the defense. No player, offensive or defensive, is allowed to contact another player below the waist. We had a long discussion with an official regarding this call one night...we did not see the penalty happen he just told us our LB "blocked" below the waist...you can understand our confusion.
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Post by eickst on Jul 30, 2008 23:05:26 GMT -6
Another goofy call is blocking below the waist called on the defense. This is an actual call despite the "blocking" by the defense. No player, offensive or defensive, is allowed to contact another player below the waist. We had a long discussion with an official regarding this call one night...we did not see the penalty happen he just told us our LB "blocked" below the waist...you can understand our confusion. In our league (fed rules) it is definitely legal to make contact and block below the waist. But they have to be in the FBZ at the snap (both the blocker and blockee). |
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Post by justryn2 on Jul 31, 2008 10:19:44 GMT -6
joboo59, the official was absolutely correct. Under Federation rules it is illegal for any defensive player to contact an offensive player below the waist except for the contact allowed in the Free Blocking Zone. In other words, if your linebacker, while attempting to make a tackle, made initial contact with a lead blocker below the waist, the penalty would be an illegal block on the defense.
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