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Post by davecisar on Mar 26, 2008 7:38:44 GMT -6
This is from one of Michigan Zeeland West's State Title Games. Note the coaches from the other team looking at the clock  Looks like 3 plays is all ZW is running more or less on this drive: trap, power, keep out. The classic Straight T series. www.youtube.com/watch?v= |
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 26, 2008 8:30:50 GMT -6
When executed right, the T is a very tough offense to stop. Our freshmen team got knocked out of the playoffs this year by a T team and it was the best I've ever seen it executed.
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mrigg
Junior Member
Posts: 457
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Post by mrigg on Mar 26, 2008 8:57:42 GMT -6
I love to see RBs fake and get tackled 5 yds away from the ball. I bet that defense was feeling great in the 4th.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 26, 2008 9:19:13 GMT -6
That layered handoff thing is pretty interesting stuff for me anyways.
Most of the Michigan guys know about these guys and other T teams like Haslett etc.
Some interesting stats on these guys, weird stats actuallY:
Three year record of 34-4 at ZWHS
In 13 years over 26,000 rushing yards, averaged over 9 yards a carry
Twenty-three 1,000 yard rushers in thirteen years.
Just twice have thrown for 500 yards passing in a season
Nine different Fullbacks have rushed for 1,000 yards in a season
In 1999 3,500 yards on the trap play alone…7,000 yards overall in fourteen games
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Post by knight9299 on Mar 26, 2008 9:23:48 GMT -6
That layered handoff thing is pretty interesting stuff for me anyways. Most of the Michigan guys know about these guys and other T teams like Haslett etc. Some interesting stats on these guys, weird stats actuallY: Three year record of 34-4 at ZWHS In 13 years over 26,000 rushing yards, averaged over 9 yards a carryTwenty-three 1,000 yard rushers in thirteen years. Just twice have thrown for 500 yards passing in a season Nine different Fullbacks have rushed for 1,000 yards in a season In 1999 3,500 yards on the trap play alone…7,000 yards overall in fourteen games Gotta love forced assignment football! |
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Post by casec11 on Mar 26, 2008 9:24:27 GMT -6
What Dave is speaking about "layerd Hand off" for those that do not know
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Post by davecisar on Mar 26, 2008 9:48:56 GMT -6
Many of the teams that use that method also have their kids wear long black sleeved shirts under their uniforms. Don Markham used to have his kids "tape" with white tape their long sleeved undershirts to their forearms with 2 pieces of white tape about 10 inches apart. Mind you I wouldnt ever suggest anyone do that, but of course some do |
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Post by kylem56 on Mar 26, 2008 10:55:46 GMT -6
played in this offense in highschool at Monroe SMCC in Michigan. You would think with having onl 6-7 plays that people would be able to stop this offense easily..its all about execution.
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Post by dubber on Mar 26, 2008 22:03:25 GMT -6
My three favorite offenses to watch, in no order:
1.) SW
2.) Air Raid
3.) T
I loved watching that drive, but I have a football philosophy question.
Obviously, on that drive, they were able to gradually work their way down the field and score.
How many drives do they have like that,
Versus
How many drives do they have were they have "an explosive run" that sets up the score.
I ask because I believe sustainable offensive football is about getting explosive plays.
I do not think an offense can consistently line up and get 5-yards a crack (and no more) every single time and eventually score on a consistent basis.
At some point, the burden of executing perfectly like that catches up with even the most diligently prepared of teams.
There are drives like that, but I believe they are the exception rather than the rule.
Again, I ask because it seems some guys think full house offenses are "3 yards and a cloud of dust" slowly working their way to score, when in fact they, just like every other offense, usually have an explosive run of over 15 yards to score or set-up their score.
Kinda like DW team lull you to sleep with Power Pitch and then hit a home run with counter.
Or am I way off base here?
Again, the question is: Was a drive like this the norm or the exception?
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Post by jcarbon2 on Mar 26, 2008 22:54:38 GMT -6
Here is Canton
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Post by ghscoach on Mar 27, 2008 13:21:30 GMT -6
My three favorite offenses to watch, in no order: 1.) SW 2.) Air Raid 3.) T I loved watching that drive, but I have a football philosophy question. Obviously, on that drive, they were able to gradually work their way down the field and score. How many drives do they have like that, Versus How many drives do they have were they have "an explosive run" that sets up the score. I ask because I believe sustainable offensive football is about getting explosive plays. I do not think an offense can consistently line up and get 5-yards a crack (and no more) every single time and eventually score on a consistent basis. At some point, the burden of executing perfectly like that catches up with even the most diligently prepared of teams. There are drives like that, but I believe they are the exception rather than the rule. Again, I ask because it seems some guys think full house offenses are "3 yards and a cloud of dust" slowly working their way to score, when in fact they, just like every other offense, usually have an explosive run of over 15 yards to score or set-up their score. Kinda like DW team lull you to sleep with Power Pitch and then hit a home run with counter. Or am I way off base here? Again, the question is: Was a drive like this the norm or the exception? I live in Southwest Michigan and there are a number of T teams in this area I have seen play including Zeeland West. Coach Shillito is a master of the T. He preaches execution and perfection. I would say this drive is a very typical game opening drive for most good T teams. Things become more fast brake as the game wears on. I watched very good T team late last season and it took them 10 minutes on the game clock to score their first touchdown. But at half time it was 35-0. I really think the offense gets in the D’s head and the more trouble they have stopping them things start to snowball. Kids start trying to make plays in areas they are not responsible for or get lulled asleep as you say. Then the defense starts trying to do too much and boom a fifty yard gainer on a inside counter trap or your safety sucks up on PA and the QB hits the TE for a 40 yard TD pass. After watching the drive again Coopersville’s OLB or DE’s (what ever you want to call them depending on their front) killed them due to lack of out side contain they sucked down on nearly every play when there was already 6 or 7 kids inside the tackles. Classic case of not trusting your buddy to make his play and trying to do to much. It appeared as though they had the counter trap and power under reasonable control but let the QB burn them to the outside 3 or 4 times for good gains including the TD. This is classic Shillito he just takes what the D gives him and keeps taking it until they adjust. He just mixed in a few powers and traps on this drive to keep the D honest. |
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Post by kkennedy on Mar 27, 2008 15:54:31 GMT -6
That game (z west against coopersville) was pretty much like that the whole time. I think the final score was 21-0 with Z west just grinding out 5 yards at a time for the most part. Some of the T teams up here can be pretty explosive though. Coach Shillito had a team in 1999 (Muskegon Orchard View) that scored 774 points which is still a state record. Climax Scotts in 2004 had a QB that went 93 yards and 2 tds on 3 carrires all on the keep out. When you get a coach like John Shillito, Irv Sigler, Tim Bachelor, or Kevin Langs this offense is fun to watch.
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Post by khalfie on Mar 27, 2008 18:41:55 GMT -6
My three favorite offenses to watch, in no order: 1.) SW 2.) Air Raid 3.) T I loved watching that drive, but I have a football philosophy question. Obviously, on that drive, they were able to gradually work their way down the field and score. How many drives do they have like that, Versus How many drives do they have were they have "an explosive run" that sets up the score. I ask because I believe sustainable offensive football is about getting explosive plays. I do not think an offense can consistently line up and get 5-yards a crack (and no more) every single time and eventually score on a consistent basis. At some point, the burden of executing perfectly like that catches up with even the most diligently prepared of teams. There are drives like that, but I believe they are the exception rather than the rule. Again, I ask because it seems some guys think full house offenses are "3 yards and a cloud of dust" slowly working their way to score, when in fact they, just like every other offense, usually have an explosive run of over 15 yards to score or set-up their score. Kinda like DW team lull you to sleep with Power Pitch and then hit a home run with counter. Or am I way off base here? Again, the question is: Was a drive like this the norm or the exception? I think you are way off base... I think that was a state championship game... hence the other team was tough, and Z had to settle for the slow grind... Against less talented teams, a tackle is missed, an assignment is dropped, and big plays happen more often. I think it is exemplary of a great team, that they can pound it out against other great teams, but against a lesser squad, it gets ugly quick. Its only 3 yds and a cloud of dust if the other team is good... if they are superior, sure, they will probably stop you... but when that team is comprable or of lesser quality... the smashmouth becomes a test of wills, that lesser teams are not prepared to deal with. |
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Post by dubber on Mar 27, 2008 19:32:27 GMT -6
I just don't think you can do it.
Getting those 14+ play drives that end in touchdowns are R A R E
I think EVERY OFFENSE relies on explosive plays to score
If I team gains 3-5 yards every play, they must:
*avoid any penalties
*avoid any 1 yard gains or less
To go long drives without any of this happening is unrealistic for the most disciplined and fundamentally sound of teams.
I played in the T-tight (Barta bone style), and although we had more drives like Z's opening drive than the average team, MOST of our scores were set up by an explosive play.
I am fairly convinenced that is the way it is..........
Now, teams go about their explosives different ways.
Teams that are Sigler power/trap/keep series are going to keep pounding the rock, and eventually they wear you down and the big plays come. Also, they make you play assignment football for 4 quarters.
In summation, they get their big plays by:
A) Capitalizing on mistakes
B) Wearing the D down
Throw option teams and other full housers/direct snap guys in here too
Compare this with the spread offenses, who want to get the ball in space to people who can score. They want big plays too, they just get it by throwing the ball short or opening running lanes by spreading the defense.
Air Raid, Run and Shoot, Urban Meyeresque stuff.
I mean every DW coach has the waggle off Power with the WB running a corner route.......even they know they need big plays to be a successful offense.
I think 3 yards and a cloud of dust every play is a myth.
I think some teams take a more conservative approach where they wait for big plays to happen, and others push the issue.
Either way, you need runs over 10 and passes over 15 on a consistent basis to be a good offense.
respectfully submitted,
Dubby
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Post by khalfie on Mar 27, 2008 19:44:19 GMT -6
I just don't think you can do it. Getting those 14+ play drives that end in touchdowns are R A R E I think EVERY OFFENSE relies on explosive plays to score If I team gains 3-5 yards every play, they must: *avoid any penalties *avoid any 1 yard gains or less To go long drives without any of this happening is unrealistic for the most disciplined and fundamentally sound of teams. I played in the T-tight (Barta bone style), and although we had more drives like Z's opening drive than the average team, MOST of our scores were set up by an explosive play. I am fairly convinenced that is the way it is.......... Now, teams go about their explosives different ways. Teams that are Sigler power/trap/keep series are going to keep pounding the rock, and eventually they wear you down and the big plays come. Also, they make you play assignment football for 4 quarters. In summation, they get their big plays by: A) Capitalizing on mistakes B) Wearing the D down Throw option teams and other full housers/direct snap guys in here too Compare this with the spread offenses, who want to get the ball in space to people who can score. They want big plays too, they just get it by throwing the ball short or opening running lanes by spreading the defense. Air Raid, Run and Shoot, Urban Meyeresque stuff. I mean every DW coach has the waggle off Power with the WB running a corner route.......even they know they need big plays to be a successful offense. I think 3 yards and a cloud of dust every play is a myth. I think some teams take a more conservative approach where they wait for big plays to happen, and others push the issue. Either way, you need runs over 10 and passes over 15 on a consistent basis to be a good offense. respectfully submitted, Dubby I disrespectfully disagree... ;D Sounds to me that you have a "chicken / egg" conflict... By that, I mean, which came first? The chicken or the egg? The Big plays or the good offense? Let me see if I understand you correctly... if you don't get explosive plays... then you aren't a good offense? All offenses RELY on the big play? Getting big plays does not identify your offense as good... it identifies the opponents defense as not being good. Offenses are created for execution, said execution is designed to move the chains, big plays are the results of defenses not executing, small plays executed becoming big plays. The brilliance of an offense is when you CAN continually ink out 3 to 4 yards, even when a defense is executing and NOT allowing the big play. It happens every year, everywhere. Exceptional teams blow out less than exceptional teams, until they run into a similarly superior defense, and then it becomes about who can consistently execute, even when they aren't getting the Big Play... the misssed tackel... the missed assignment... the blown coverage. I beg to differ, if you are coaching for the big play, you might as well be playing the lottery... If you are coaching for execution... its like that baseball movie... "if you build it, they will come!" The big play.... that is... More so. Defense is usually ahead of offense... offenses, usually don't score all the time... many times they are stopped, and its something to celebrate when they do score. So again, its offense vs defense... whomever executes better wins... poor execution leads to big plays... and though it equates to poor defense or a better offense, it doesn't mean that the absence of big plays, is due to poor offense. |
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billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
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Post by billyn on Mar 27, 2008 19:44:31 GMT -6
Dubber, you are right on. I'll go one further though. Field position makes more of a difference than anything. I played Smith Center one time, and getting them to punt is an accomplishment. I've never seen anyone go for more fourth downs. Ground it out teams are really tough when they have four downs to work with.
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Post by morris on Mar 27, 2008 20:30:56 GMT -6
I do not think dubber is saying you coach for the big play. What he is saying is that some where in those drives big play shappen and if big plays do nto happen the chances of you getting points is a good deal less.
I have to agree with him and so does Billick in his book about game planning. One of the factors in winning is generating more big plays. He breaksdown run and pass as to what falls into a big play group. He goes on to talk about if you are not getting big plays you should have a plan to generate a big play. This is what dubber is refering to when he talks about the PA, reverse, waggle an dcounter criss cross.
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Post by dubber on Mar 28, 2008 0:26:36 GMT -6
I just don't think you can do it. Getting those 14+ play drives that end in touchdowns are R A R E I think EVERY OFFENSE relies on explosive plays to score If I team gains 3-5 yards every play, they must: *avoid any penalties *avoid any 1 yard gains or less To go long drives without any of this happening is unrealistic for the most disciplined and fundamentally sound of teams. I played in the T-tight (Barta bone style), and although we had more drives like Z's opening drive than the average team, MOST of our scores were set up by an explosive play. I am fairly convinenced that is the way it is.......... Now, teams go about their explosives different ways. Teams that are Sigler power/trap/keep series are going to keep pounding the rock, and eventually they wear you down and the big plays come. Also, they make you play assignment football for 4 quarters. In summation, they get their big plays by: A) Capitalizing on mistakes B) Wearing the D down Throw option teams and other full housers/direct snap guys in here too Compare this with the spread offenses, who want to get the ball in space to people who can score. They want big plays too, they just get it by throwing the ball short or opening running lanes by spreading the defense. Air Raid, Run and Shoot, Urban Meyeresque stuff. I mean every DW coach has the waggle off Power with the WB running a corner route.......even they know they need big plays to be a successful offense. I think 3 yards and a cloud of dust every play is a myth. I think some teams take a more conservative approach where they wait for big plays to happen, and others push the issue. Either way, you need runs over 10 and passes over 15 on a consistent basis to be a good offense. respectfully submitted, Dubby I disrespectfully disagree... ;D Sounds to me that you have a "chicken / egg" conflict... By that, I mean, which came first? The chicken or the egg? The Big plays or the good offense? Let me see if I understand you correctly... if you don't get explosive plays... then you aren't a good offense? All offenses RELY on the big play? Getting big plays does not identify your offense as good... it identifies the opponents defense as not being good. Offenses are created for execution, said execution is designed to move the chains, big plays are the results of defenses not executing, small plays executed becoming big plays. The brilliance of an offense is when you CAN continually ink out 3 to 4 yards, even when a defense is executing and NOT allowing the big play. It happens every year, everywhere. Exceptional teams blow out less than exceptional teams, until they run into a similarly superior defense, and then it becomes about who can consistently execute, even when they aren't getting the Big Play... the misssed tackel... the missed assignment... the blown coverage. I beg to differ, if you are coaching for the big play, you might as well be playing the lottery... If you are coaching for execution... its like that baseball movie... "if you build it, they will come!" The big play.... that is... More so. Defense is usually ahead of offense... offenses, usually don't score all the time... many times they are stopped, and its something to celebrate when they do score. So again, its offense vs defense... whomever executes better wins... poor execution leads to big plays... and though it equates to poor defense or a better offense, it doesn't mean that the absence of big plays, is due to poor offense. Incorrect. It identifies your ability to execute beyond the measure of your opponent. Offensive touchdowns are not scored with baby steps alone, but with consistently making the distance for 1st downs and explosive plays. I beg to differ, if you are coaching for the big play, you might as well be playing the lottery... If you are coaching for execution... its like that baseball movie... "if you build it, they will come!"Again, there is not the distinction between big plays and execution. They are one in the same. My question to you would be: What offense do you run? AND....What are the common natures of your offensive drives that end in scores? I'd be willing to bet more than not, they included an explosive play.....just look at the stats. I am going to start another thread to the tune of this subject because Coach Cisar started this thread on the marvels of the T-tight offense, and it should stay as such. |
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Post by dubber on Mar 28, 2008 0:41:43 GMT -6
HERE is my new thread on this subject. Please ignore my inadverted hijacking of this thread and post comments on this "big play" theory on this thread. In the meantime, is not the Power-T great?
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Post by morris on Mar 28, 2008 5:25:26 GMT -6
It took me a while to get use to it looking like the QB was getting his arm ripped off. Is that because of the layered handoff?
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Post by coachmac99 on Apr 8, 2008 6:53:52 GMT -6
(not wanting to ignore your request concerning this comment)
I agree with you but the funny thing was this game was full of long drives. After Zeeland scored on their 1st drive then Cooperville drove the ball down field and turned it over on downs at the Zeeland 5.
Zeeland had two possessions in the 1st half and Cooperville had 3 with the last being 30 seconds.
Below is a link to the Zeeland West 2nd drive:
Steve
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Post by coachmac99 on Apr 8, 2008 6:57:52 GMT -6
When is came to T football Irv Sigler was the man. Irv was the coach that made the T famous in MI. He was the coach that taught the offense to John Shillito of Zeeland West.
Irv brought the T to Olivet College and proved it could be successful at the college level.
Below are some links to Irv's Olivet team running the T.
Steve
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Post by dubber on Apr 8, 2008 11:09:21 GMT -6
When is came to T football Irv Sigler was the man. Irv was the coach that made the T famous in MI. He was the coach that taught the offense to John Shillito of Zeeland West. Irv brought the T to Olivet College and proved it could be successful at the college level. Below are some links to Irv's Olivet team running the T. Steve I was on a run and shoot team that played Irv's Olivet team (his best one....think they went 8-4 or something) 63-62 Olivet win. We went for 2 and didn't get it. BTW, that was in regulation... |
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