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Post by groundchuck on Apr 9, 2006 7:57:54 GMT -6
I know this has been brought up indirectly in other posts on the board, and maybe has been brought up for discussion already but...
There seems to be some discussion about power football vs the 1-back passing systems and the ease of selling them to kids. The wing-t, bone, power I, DW etc seem to be tougher to sell to kids today b/c of what they watch on Saturdays and Sundays with the passing game. How do you get that "basketball player" who could help you out on the football field to play if you are running the power football variety of offenses?
I don't think you have to sell power football to linemen, but to the "golden boys" it seems like a tougher sell according to many coaches.
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moose18
Junior Member
"If it didn't matter who won or lost, they wouldn't keep score"
Posts: 284
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Post by moose18 on Apr 9, 2006 8:04:02 GMT -6
I agree that you don't have to sell power football to the linemen, but those big guys are playing football no matter what. They don't have many other options with their body types. The skill guys are the ones you must sell because they have other options with their athleticism
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Post by saintrad on Apr 9, 2006 8:26:04 GMT -6
we dont call them "golden boys" we call them "twinkies" because when you hit them hard enough, the stuffing comes out of them.
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Post by seagull73 on Apr 9, 2006 8:30:26 GMT -6
I had the opposite reaction. I went to a school and installed a shotgun passing offense and got a lot of resistance from the kids because they were comfortable depending on one guy to carry the ball 30+ times a game. When to spread it out it does get more kids involved but you have to take into consideration that those kids may not have the confidence in themselves to contribute. The 1st year was rough but the second was what I had expected all along.
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Post by lochness on Apr 9, 2006 10:26:17 GMT -6
I think it is a misconception that you have to run a glitzy pass offense to satisfy the athletes in your school. I think it is also a misconception that "power football" relies on your giving the same kid the ball 30+ times per game. I don't think "spreading it out" is any more INVOLVING than running any other offense (in fact, I have found that it usually OVEREMPHASIZES the QB more than any other offense emphasizes any other position, including power running "I" formation teams).
It depends on how many athletes you have that you can involve. I've seen straight-t teams that involve all 3 RB's and both TE's very well in their offensive attack (so well, they beat the snot out of us in a semi-final game), and get over 100 kids out every year in their program. They don't seem to have any problem selling anything to anyone.
Chuck, I think the key to "selling" any type of offensive football is installing the selfless mindset, and making it fun. Some people think "fun" is slinging the ball around 40 times per game. But, really I think "fun" is creating the team mindset and watching it be successful no matter how you do it. As long as each athlete understands their worth and their role in your system, you can sell it to them. It has very little to do with the "shotgun vs. 2 backs / 2 TE's" debate and has everything to do with HOW you go about practicing and executing your offense.
We are primarily a 2 RB, 1 TE team so we are certainly not a glitzy "fad" offense. But, we involve as many athletes as we can each season. In 2003, we had 4 different backs carry for nearly identical yardage on nearly identical number of carries, and we had 3-4 different receivers who had 10-20 receptions each. We had a lot of talent, so we got those guys involved. In 2004, we had an outstanding RB, but a fairly average FB and some fairly average or even under-average receivers. Rather than try to force the ball into people who were not gifted enough to make plays, we rode our stud TB and got the ball to other people as needed. Nobody complained, and nobody whined, because they were too busy cheering at our RB as he racked up yardage and TD's. It's all about "doing what it takes to get the ball in the endzone." If you sell your kids on THAT concept, you could run anything and it doesn't matter; They'll go out and play and give it their best. It's that "New England Patriots" formula that it doesn't matter how you get it done, but our whole roster contributes to the win, and everyone knows their role and understands how they contribute AND takes pride in that. If they can do it with a bunch of PRO athletes, it can't be that hard to do with high school kids.
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 9, 2006 10:45:05 GMT -6
I think it is a misconception that you have to run a glitzy pass offense to satisfy the athletes in your school. I think it is also a misconception that "power football" relies on your giving the same kid the ball 30+ times per game. I don't think "spreading it out" is any more INVOLVING than running any other offense (in fact, I have found that it usually OVEREMPHASIZES the QB more than any other offense emphasizes any other position, including power running "I" formation teams). It depends on how many athletes you have that you can involve. I've seen straight-t teams that involve all 3 RB's and both TE's very well in their offensive attack (so well, they beat the snot out of us in a semi-final game), and get over 100 kids out every year in their program. They don't seem to have any problem selling anything to anyone. Chuck, I think the key to "selling" any type of offensive football is installing the selfless mindset, and making it fun. Some people think "fun" is slinging the ball around 40 times per game. But, really I think "fun" is creating the team mindset and watching it be successful no matter how you do it. As long as each athlete understands their worth and their role in your system, you can sell it to them. It has very little to do with the "shotgun vs. 2 backs / 2 TE's" debate and has everything to do with HOW you go about practicing and executing your offense. We are primarily a 2 RB, 1 TE team so we are certainly not a glitzy "fad" offense. But, we involve as many athletes as we can each season. In 2003, we had 4 different backs carry for nearly identical yardage on nearly identical number of carries, and we had 3-4 different receivers who had 10-20 receptions each. We had a lot of talent, so we got those guys involved. In 2004, we had an outstanding RB, but a fairly average FB and some fairly average or even under-average receivers. Rather than try to force the ball into people who were not gifted enough to make plays, we rode our stud TB and got the ball to other people as needed. Nobody complained, and nobody whined, because they were too busy cheering at our RB as he racked up yardage and TD's. It's all about "doing what it takes to get the ball in the endzone." If you sell your kids on THAT concept, you could run anything and it doesn't matter; They'll go out and play and give it their best. It's that "New England Patriots" formula that it doesn't matter how you get it done, but our whole roster contributes to the win, and everyone knows their role and understands how they contribute AND takes pride in that. If they can do it with a bunch of PRO athletes, it can't be that hard to do with high school kids. That the type of answer I was looking for. For me I can sell the smashmouth stuff because that is what I believe in. I don't think you have to cater to the finesse hoops player who won't play unless you throw him the ball. The kids I have always gotten out for football like football regardless of what offense we ran. Kids who did not play didn't b/c they don't like football (or me lol). It is about creating a team mindset that everyone whether you touch the ball 30 times or line up at WR and catch 3 passes everyone knows thier role in important. I agree the fun is in the team mindset. |
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Post by coachjd on Apr 9, 2006 13:59:32 GMT -6
I think you can play smashmouth in oneback formations. We run the ball 30+ times a game when we can, but we can throw the ball when we need to. IMO, I think it is easier to sell the kids on an offense that #1 coach knows like the back of his hand and shows enthusiasm about it. #2 Puts the ball in the playmakers hands and #3 running offenses that they see on TV on Saturday or Sundays can help reinforce what your doing if it happens to be that style of offense you put in.
At the school I am at now, if we lined up double TE and ran bone, we would have 20 kids quit on day 1. Our kids are tall and skinny basketball and baseball type kids. We have two neighboring schools who has been double tight bone and stacked I for years and one of the schools is one of the winningest teams in state history and they are starting to see the same thing. Kids don't want to line up toe to toe and play smashmouth every down of every practice and game for an entire year. Our neighboring school installed some flexbone last year and now they have told us they will also use trips and doubles next fall to help keep the kids excited about what they are doing.
The offense does not have to be throwing the ball 40+ times a game. If you watch Northwestern or Bowling Green, they are a run first offense. You look at Navy and Air Force. Are they lined up toe to toe and playing smash mouth? not really. Flexbone, unbalanced trips etc and running the option game to perfection. Do kids see it on TV, yes they do.
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Post by sls on Apr 9, 2006 14:57:16 GMT -6
I think you can play smashmouth in oneback formations. We run the ball 30+ times a game when we can, but we can throw the ball when we need to. IMO, I think it is easier to sell the kids on an offense that #1 coach knows like the back of his hand and shows enthusiasm about it. #2 Puts the ball in the playmakers hands and #3 running offenses that they see on TV on Saturday or Sundays can help reinforce what your doing if it happens to be that style of offense you put in. At the school I am at now, if we lined up double TE and ran bone, we would have 20 kids quit on day 1. Our kids are tall and skinny basketball and baseball type kids. We have two neighboring schools who has been double tight bone and stacked I for years and one of the schools is one of the winningest teams in state history and they are starting to see the same thing. Kids don't want to line up toe to toe and play smashmouth every down of every practice and game for an entire year. Our neighboring school installed some flexbone last year and now they have told us they will also use trips and doubles next fall to help keep the kids excited about what they are doing. The offense does not have to be throwing the ball 40+ times a game. If you watch Northwestern or Bowling Green, they are a run first offense. You look at Navy and Air Force. Are they lined up toe to toe and playing smash mouth? not really. Flexbone, unbalanced trips etc and running the option game to perfection. Do kids see it on TV, yes they do. This is exactly my situation. |
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Post by brophy on Apr 10, 2006 9:51:25 GMT -6
I believe SELLING an offense / defense / special teams package....is best done through showing them video of other successful teams that run it.
All you have to do, is call that college / program up and tell them you are running their stuff, and they are happy to throw cutups your way.
1) it shows the kids a bunch of explosive big plays (that the system is capable of)
2) Gives them a visual reference of how plays are supposed to look
3) Makes the WHY WE ARE RUNNING IT self-explanatory.
4) The fact that another program runs it, kind of gives it a stamp of "acceptance" (or legitimacy).
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Post by coachjd on Apr 10, 2006 9:57:10 GMT -6
great points brophy.
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Post by superpower on Apr 10, 2006 13:32:05 GMT -6
I use highlight videos from my previous teams as well as other teams to show what our offense (DW) will do when it is run correctly. I have never had a prima donna (sp?) type who didn't fall in love with the 50+ yard runs that we frequently produce; qbs see that we will pass to wide open receivers; and the hard-nosed kids love the physical nature of the offense. My experience is that kids want to be in a system that leads to success, so showing them your system having success will sell it to most.
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Post by jhanawa on Apr 10, 2006 16:00:12 GMT -6
I think it is important to be diversified so that you can attract different kinds of kids. Cater to them, no, get them involved and make them feel like a contributor, YES. I think the more you can spread the ball around and make different positions valid threats, the better off you are.
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ike2112
Sophomore Member
Posts: 158
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Post by ike2112 on Apr 10, 2006 17:00:38 GMT -6
That the type of answer I was looking for. For me I can sell the smashmouth stuff because that is what I believe in. I don't think you have to cater to the finesse hoops player who won't play unless you throw him the ball. The kids I have always gotten out for football like football regardless of what offense we ran. Kids who did not play didn't b/c they don't like football (or me lol). It is about creating a team mindset that everyone whether you touch the ball 30 times or line up at WR and catch 3 passes everyone knows thier role in important. I agree the fun is in the team mindset. What if the team is losing? Maybe that WR gets fed up with coach not throwing him the ball when he could make the difference? Or maybe coach wants a spread offense, and the players can't get the hang of it. He perseveres because he believes in it, when really he should run it up the gut? Sometimes coach is wrong. How to make the players believe regardless? When you're one game away from playoff elimination, with 5 to play, how to make them believe the near impossible is possible? |
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Post by lochness on Apr 11, 2006 4:58:14 GMT -6
Coach, if they love each other and believe in each other because you have built an unselfish team environment, anything IS possible. (What a sap I am) We had to suffer for a few years with those WR's (or whatever) saying that they weren't getting the ball enough and quitting on us. Did it hurt? Yup! Did we stick to our guns, though? Yes we did. Now, that behavior never happens. And I truly mean never. Those guys are either "shown the way" or "shown the door" by our leadership because they completely buy in to the team concept. Selfishness is just not tolerated. And we all "walk the walk" from the coaching staff all the way down.
I don't see why you can't do that with any kind of offense. Sorry, but I just don't. To me, those are excuses. If you make your program fun and you do things right, athletes will come. The way I look at it is if an athlete won't play football unless we run a certain type of offense, then I don't want him to play football because obviously he is only coming out for himself. There are many, many other ways to make your program appeal to all types of athletes without having to go to a different offensive philosophy.
Sorry, this is just an issue I feel fairly strongly about. Every coach has to do what they think is right for their program. Maybe I have no concept about what other programs who are fighting for athletes are trying to accomplish. I DO remember back in the late 90's we were a school that barely had 35 kids out for varsity football, and maybe another 15 for Frosh. We stuck to our system (always refining, but never drastically changing) and started improved our coaching, our off season program, our consistency in handling team rules, our "family" atmosphere, sportsmanship (#1 in the state last season) and all of the "little things" that make a program great. Now we have started with 100-120 kids every year since 2002, and I'm very proud of that...way more so than any x's and o's changes we've made.
After defeating one of our rivals and securing a playoff birth this season, their head coach paid us the greatest compliment anyone could have, in my opinion, in a quote to the newspapers:
"It's no surprise at all. They've stuck to their system through the years and their coaches work very hard."
I guess all I'm trying to say (to get back to the original topic) is that I believe that changing the x's and o's to make the basketball and track guys go "ooooo...ahhhhhh" and to keep the parents from yelling stupid stuff at you like "why don't you get more CREATIVE" is not the best way to SELL a program in my opinion.
Put in the hard work and make your program something special. Promote team concepts, stick to your ethics, be involved in getting the right types of kids in terms of their character to come out, etc. etc. It is NOT a quick-fix...it takes years, but it will attract the right type of kids to your program and plenty of them over time. Kids inherently want to be part of something good. We have the power to do that.
And it sure as heck doesn't have much to do with how we line up every snap.
End of rant. Sorry.
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Post by coachcalande on Apr 11, 2006 5:55:32 GMT -6
heres my rant- I am not going to throw the ball 30 times a game to make some "me first" attitude player happy...im more concerned with the30 or so other kids who want to play hard, will run thru a wall for their coach to win.
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Post by lochness on Apr 11, 2006 6:56:20 GMT -6
Right,
I mean heck...an offensive lineman NEVER get the ball. His dedication is to the game and to the "special fraternaty" of being an offensive lineman. I don't see why this concept can't and shouldn't be promoted throughout the offense and, indeed, the entire system.
We give more praise to our WR's and TE's for making fantastic blocks than we do for making catches. Don't get me wrong, we are known to throw the ball, but we do it as a part of our gameplan... not to satisfy anyone.
I think it's all in what you EMPAHSIZE. We'll give offensive linemen enormous praise for sacrificing themselves and making a tremendous block. We'll show over and over again in films the DT who occupies 2 blockers with his body because of his relentlesness and we'll whoop it up and slap him on the back. We mention our OL or DL in the papers when the press interviews us, and we talk about their selfless play and their impact on our success. They begin to see the VALUE in being a cog in the huge machine. It really ends up with the philosophy that "if everyone does their job at 100%, the guy with the ball really doesn't have to do anything special at all." It trickles throughout the entire team, and they take pride in performing the "dirty work" and the "selfless acts."
I've always liked this because it puts everyone on the same level. Again, it takes TIME and total buy-in of the entire coaching staff...but it really works and it teaches so much.
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Post by coachcalande on Apr 11, 2006 7:16:38 GMT -6
ONE YEAR I HAD 23 KIDS CARRY THE FOOTBALL, 15 OF THEM FOUND THE ENDZONE INCLUDING MY CENTER AND RIGHT GUARD (BOTH RAN FROM "THE BEAST")....MY KIDS LEARN TO LOVE POWER FOOTBALL BECAUSE THEIR COACH IS RABIDLY INTENSE ABOUT IT.
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Post by brophy on Apr 11, 2006 7:31:23 GMT -6
ONE YEAR I HAD 23 KIDS CARRY THE FOOTBALL, 15 OF THEM FOUND THE ENDZONE INCLUDING MY CENTER AND RIGHT GUARD (BOTH RAN FROM "THE BEAST")....MY KIDS LEARN TO LOVE POWER FOOTBALL BECAUSE THEIR COACH IS RABIDLY INTENSE ABOUT IT. good point. IF the coach is excited about what you are doing as a player....pretty soon the players will get excited about what they are doing. Project the emotion you want to convey. |
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Apr 12, 2006 5:02:36 GMT -6
Coach: For starters, you could show them the record books for most points scored in a season: 11-Man Football - Team - Offense MOST POINTS Season 903 Albemarle, NC, 2001 (16) 880 Bloomington, CA, 1994 (14) Don Markham's 1994 Bloomington team was, of course, a Double Wing offense, and still holds the national HS record for a 14-game season...that's pretty exciting, even for golden retrievers.  |
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Post by knighter on Apr 12, 2006 5:33:42 GMT -6
Try selling DW to a team where the only experience with DW was watching a local team and opponent go 0-27 running it. That was the job I had. 1st day of practice I lined up an offense and a defense and showed them the 5 base plays, and WHY they would work IF each person did their job. After that they bought into it 100%. They were amazed at the numbers advantage we would have on every play. They also like the idea of ALL people on offense being ACTIVELY involved in each play (yes, even my QB's). They also liked the fact that we would not just have 1 guy as the focus of our offense. 3 years prior to my arrival, they ran wing t and FULLBACK carried the load (350+ carries per year). Most carries I have had a kid with in the DW is 180 or so. It only took 1 game for them to believe, and that was a a scrimmage with our own guys. JV offense beat up on the varsity defense running it, all of a sudden I looked pretty smart.
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