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Post by coachpoe on Jun 28, 2007 17:19:34 GMT -6
Coaches,
today I was in the weight room and at the end of the session I overheard one of his players telling a buddy that he had to miss one of our games in September because he had to take the ACT the next day. The kid was our starting center last year and is one of our top lineman coming back (from what I have seen so far anyway). I asked our head coach about it and he said the kid has already taken the test twice, scoring well each time (a 23 and a 25). His mom is kind of a head case and thinks the kid should be getting a 30 for some reason. Anyway the gist of the situation is our starting center might be forced to miss a big Friday night game (against a likely state ranked opponent) because he has an ACT test the next day. What would you do if this situation happened on your team? I wouldn't want to punish the kid because he clearly wants to be there, but what options are there? I really don't know what our head coach is thinking about the situation right now, and hopefully this situation is resolved in the next two plus months, but if it were to happen on your team, what would be your response? Sorry for being a little long winded.
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Post by phantom on Jun 28, 2007 18:47:22 GMT -6
I'm a little fuzzy about why he has to miss a Friday game for a Saturday test. The vast majority of players who take the test in the fall have games the night before.
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Post by touchdowng on Jun 28, 2007 19:29:09 GMT -6
Mom's a head case, right?
Where is the Dad? Maybe he could talk some sense to Mom.
If this were my situation, I would approach the Mom about it and try to resolve the situation. If not, don't hold it against her son. He'd rather play and test then rest and test, right?
Looks like your number two center needs to get his share of reps and hope your week 1 opponent features an even front.
Good luck - hopefully the Mom will see the light as in Friday Night Lights.
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Post by jjkuenzel on Jun 28, 2007 20:12:30 GMT -6
That would be a no deal for me. There is no reason for him to have to miss a friday game for a saturday test. Not to mention the fact that the test can be taken a million different times in a million different locations.
The mom is probably a little worried about scholarship money for little Johnny, which she should, but no matter when the test is taken the colleges will get his highest score. So if he takes it in October, November, December it really doesn't matter. Financial aid packages aren't set in stone either.
Say that he gets a financial aid package in December for his 25 ACT. He can take the test in January and if he did get that 30 mom thinks he should get, he can then go back to the financial aid people and ask that they review his package.
Quite frankly there is no way that taking the ACT should ever be an issue. I think mom may need to become a bit more enlightened about the college admission process.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 28, 2007 20:13:44 GMT -6
Talk to the parents. If they're dead set on him missing the game I don't know what you can do about it.
I had a similar situation with one of our captains in wrestling. He was taking it for the FOURTH time. His parents wouldn't let him budge on it and it cost us finishing in the top 4 of a tournament for the first time in ten years. Kid did even worse on the test than he did the previous three times. And the parents were pissed at me for questioning the kid's dedication. I don't really know what you can do about it.
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Post by CoachDaniel on Jun 28, 2007 21:40:17 GMT -6
Get as well-armed as possible with information and talk to the parents. But if mom just doesn't get it and isn't willing to budge, you can't punish the kid. And don't argue that eveyone else does it, she obviously thinks she knows better than everyone else. You have to focus on her son and his options.
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Post by coachpoe on Jun 28, 2007 21:45:02 GMT -6
I agree phantom...my problem is obviously him missing a friday night game for a Saturday test. There is absolutely no reason for him to miss. I am sure our head coach will discuss it with his mother at the next parents meeting (don't have another one till August). Obviously there is not much we can do but try and discuss it with his mother and try and resolve the situation before it happens. I agree it should be an non issue and I am having a hard time understanding the situation myself. Hopefully this get resolved before we take the field because a small school like us can't afford to be missing our center (and one of our top lineman in general), especially against such a great opponent.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 1, 2007 12:54:10 GMT -6
Find another kid to start.....the whole season. If he wants to be the backup center, that is fine. When you start making concessions like that for kids, you lose control. I would rather start a freshman who will be committed and lose by 50 points then have a guy in there I cannot count on the entire season.
The only reason why I say this is for two reasons, it is a Saturday test and it can be taken another time.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 1, 2007 13:10:53 GMT -6
Faith, family, education, Football.
If the family is prioritizing education, even if its beyond the norm... who am I to deny a good kid, because of crazy parents.
Make the effort to change the minds, but don't punish the kid because of crazy parents.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 1, 2007 14:29:31 GMT -6
I sort of lean toward Coachorr- a commitment is just that, it's not about convienance or what fit's their schedule at this moment. He's already taken it a couple of times, can take at another time and it's the day after the game- why should a 3rd ACT test take priority over the game? And doesn't the team get punished for his not being their? How fair is it to all of them-he's your senior center, he likely makes the blocking calls up front and he's who the QB is use to taking snaps from- it's not like you are replacing just anyone.
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Post by goldenbear76 on Jul 1, 2007 14:30:37 GMT -6
I would try to make a deal with the kid and some of the teachers at your school. After school , before practice ..have the kid studying for the test. Make a deal with his parents, that you will help the kid work at his test score, but would like him to participate in the game. You could even frame it as a safety issue since you obviously won't have another center that could protect himself  . Get creative is my advice. |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 1, 2007 14:47:03 GMT -6
Honestly, I'd talk to the kid about it and make it clear that missing the game is unacceptable; PERIOD.
At 17-18 years old, he should be able to talk to his folks and explain to them that there is no reason to miss the game in this situation. He has to take some responsibility in this situation also; he's almost out of high school and needs to learn to make some calls for himself.
If he states he's still going to miss the game, then I'd sit his butt for the rest of the year.
If we start bending on these situations where family or education aren't threatened by football, we're going to be in trouble. These kids and parents need to understand that during football season, football needs to be a priority.
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Post by touchdowng on Jul 2, 2007 10:00:36 GMT -6
I cannot agree with punishing the player for his whacked mom. If anything, he deserves a medal for having to live with her. LOL
If the boy is 100% into the program and his parent is making the call (he still lives under her roof, right?) then he must HONOR his parent - as whacked as she is. We preach respecting our parents in our program and once we put our program above the home decisions of a parent, then we are taking ourselves a little too serious. Homes are breaking down left and right and it would serve our profession to support this decision as best we can. Doesn't mean we like the decision but it is the only way.
I live and love this game but it's not worth ruining a kid because of a bad decision by a parent. It's just a bad decision and should only be viewed as this. Nothing more.
If the boy is good enough to win his position back, he should be given an opportunity to win it back - no different than in any other situation. Coaches who are willing to make an example of this kid to maintain control of their program should take a look at their leadership style.
All of the players will be watching and will rally around fairness.
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 2, 2007 10:57:33 GMT -6
We are a college prep school and this comes up from time to time. Usually common sense prevails and the kid plays and then does well the next day (the link between physical activity and academic achievement is VERY well documented).
We have had a few times when the parent would not budge and we told that was their choice. The player had a choice of missing one (additional) game or go through a series of conditioning activiites to simulate the missed game - ususally takes about 30 minutes on Saturday. The player always took the conditioning and it was a forgotten issue by Monday. Our situation might be different than yours as we are a small Chrisitian school that sends 99% of our graduates onto college, typically on academic scholarships. For us, football is very important but it is not the MOST important part of their education. We stress Love of God, along with honor, loyalty, dedication, and committment to team, but we also have to keep in mind the bigger picture. We don't feel like we "cave" on every little thing but something like this (ACT/SAT) is one that we feel comfortable about handling it this way.
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Post by coachpoe on Jul 2, 2007 12:39:19 GMT -6
fbdoc, situation very similar. Teach at a small, catholic high school where every kid goes to college and of course academics come before athletics. This is a very sticky situation though, and I appreciate the suggestions. Anyway thanks for the advice coaches keep it coming.
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 2, 2007 14:10:50 GMT -6
Talk to the player, get a sense of where he is at. If he wants to miss the game you can't really tell him not to, but he should know there will be consequences. Make sure you can confidently and accurately tell him and his family that playing in the game and then going home and getting a good night of sleep won't put him behind the eight-ball in any way for the test.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2007 14:42:44 GMT -6
Let the coaches coach
Let the players play
Let the officials officiate
and let the PARENTS PARENT.
This is clearly a parental issue.
I am pretty shocked by some of the "if he doesn't play, I would bench him for the year" sentiments made by coachorr or coachcb for a couple of reasons.
Reason 1: What lesson is this action actually teaching? "We the coaches feel that you (really, your mom) are punishing the team by missing this game to such a degree, that we, the (supposed) ADULTS in this situation will now punish the team further by replacing you for the rest of the year.. THAT WILL REALLY TEACH YOUR MOM. " What possible lesson is that?
Reason 2: HE IS MISSING THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAMES are why everyone plays football right? HE IS MISSING THE GOOD PART. To me, that is punishment enough. HE IS MISSING THE REWARD. He is not missing camp, two-a-days, August heat, pursuit drills, gassers, driving the sled, blood, sweat, tears etc. He is going to be there for all that. He is MISSING THE REWARD.
What events WOULD you guys accept as reason to miss? How about a wedding of a sibling? Statistics show that there is a realistic chance that this won't be that siblings only wedding.
What if one of his parents were dying in the hospital? Well, Jr. isn't a doctor, so he really can't help that situation, so i guess he should probably play.
Now, anyone with any HS coaching experience has had kids miss Saturday practice because of the fall ACT test, and yes, most of those kids don't miss the Friday Night game. However, that is not YOUR call as a coach. That is the parent's call as a parent.
Just kind of shocking to see that attitude. I think missing the game is bad enough, and no "punishment" is warranted. You aren't "Caving" in to anything... THE KID IS MISSING THE GAME....THE FUN PART. How can that possibly be considered "caving in" or "bending". Has anyone ever had a mass incidence of GAME MISSING?
As far as putting him at the bottom of the depth chart, well, that sounds good in theory, but realistically what would he have to do differently to get back to the top, assuming he was your #1 from Spring till the ACT game? At the H.S. level, how often do you truly have 6 lineman so equal in ability that there is ever a competition for one of the 5 spots?
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Post by justwingit on Jul 2, 2007 14:44:28 GMT -6
Similar situation, our team captain has informed us that he will be missing a distrcit game this year to attend FBLA national convention. He's our best player but the FBLA sponsor would say he is their club's president. Whew, sometimes I don't get paid enough...
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Post by knight9299 on Jul 2, 2007 14:54:07 GMT -6
I deal with a similar situation every year. The D@*N State Fair. The past 2 years our top 2 quarterbacks bail out to show their pigs! PIGS!  I don't have the words. I do, but most of them would be censored here. He's not getting the reps as the #1 that game week. And if the #2 grades out as well as the #1 has in past games, those two get to battle it out the following week. The football season is a total commitment thing. Missing a game to retake a test shows lack of commitment. A great student/stud athlete would tell mom to chill, play his butt off Friday and get a 36 on his ACT the next morning... |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 2, 2007 17:55:05 GMT -6
There are kids on the depth chart that are willing to make football a priority ON FRIDAY FRICKIN NIGHT; let them play.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 2, 2007 18:11:16 GMT -6
Now, anyone with any HS coaching experience has had kids miss Saturday practice because of the fall ACT test, and yes, most of those kids don't miss the Friday Night game. However, that is not YOUR call as a coach. That is the parent's call as a parent.
CoachD5085, I respect your opinion and I can see your point of view, however, I don't look at it as punishment and perhaps that is where we are not seeing the same perspective. Let me digress, I would definitely make every attempt to work with the player and the parents as I too feel that education takes priority over extra-curricular activities, but it would seem to me that the student-athlete (parent) is not being reasonable as A. there are many other opportunities to take the test and B. the game on Friday night does not interfere with the test (barring injury).
My thoughts as to why we might have a differing opinion. I see missing a game and then not being able to play as a consequence of an action not a punishment. It is the young man's choice (parent's choice). Football is a voluntary and no one is required to play. By being on the team, you are committing yourself to something greater than yourself. Just because football is lower on the list than God, Family and education, does not make it "irrelevant" inspite of those issues. The athlete is not being asked to miss the test all together, as this is clearly not the only time he is allowed to take it, nor does it interfere with the test in the first place.
If you set the precedence that players can miss games without consequence, then you and your team will be at the mercy of the will of individuals. Afterall, is it fair to the team that said individual does not have to live up to his commitment? What about their (the rest of the team) punishment, because when you talk about punishment, the team are the ones who are punished. You are not punishing the kid, he is making a choice. I understand he needs to respect his parents and I agree with that point of view, however, the parents also need to realize that this player has made a commitment to the team and that is also important.
You are right, the whole season is too extreme; don't play him for at least a game after the one he misses, that is what I think. Unless that captains of the team present a more plausible and unsolicited solution.
Coachd5085, great post, I like your points and I see where you are coming from, however, I just think to let the kid play on without consequence is opening a can of worms, and I think a wedding is even worse.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 2, 2007 18:49:34 GMT -6
A wedding is not an emergency, plus I'm in Ohio, no one from our state gets married on friday night in the fall, lest they be saying their nuptuals on the field during pregame or halftime.
We had a wedding reception at one of our games. The game was moved to a Saturday evening, and they continued with the wedding (it was our then backup QBs brother), but the reception would be during the game so they moved it to the pavilion next to the field. That guy is a coach now...
Anyway, we have weird things come up from time top time here just like everyone else. I know of no easy answer... I too would like to say what many are- to heck with this kid. If he's not committed bench him, etc. None of us on this board would have ever done such a thing (which means our parents understood the importance of commitment; not as common now). That might make me feel a little better, but I am not sure it would be the best for the program/team or the player.
I cannot agree with punishing the player for his whacked mom. If anything, he deserves a medal for having to live with her. LOL
We have some real yahoos as parents... MOST of them are just ignorant- but are willing to listen. Too many times we (I) get frustrated and get mad without trying to remedy the situation. We had a real potential problem last year and I was enraged... fortunately, I calmed down and sought a solution with the parent and things worked out fairly well.
Like others have said, talk with the mother, use research findings that fbdoc mentioned, have every bit of information at your disposal...
BUT- if that doesn't work (this is what we would do here):
After the coaches are in agreement, if you have captains or a player's council I would bring it to them. They can be lead to whatever direction the coach wants usually (must be fairly Socratic in method)... but you can survive one game- if the team becomes divided because of this, it could ruin your season.
Once the agreement is reached with player representatives, then discuss it with the player. Explain what is expected of him, etc.
If this were our team, if he missed, he would lose his job (since he is not playing) for that week. He would come in at the bottom of the depth chart the following week, and could earn his way back- with the understanding that the backup would maintain the right to keep the job that was relinquished by him missing.
We would have some make up conditioning in order- not as punishment (OK, maybe it is... but we don't say that), but to get back up to speed with the other players. An average game is 9 minutes (4.5 if he is a one-way player) of actual "playing time", so the equivalent (45 40s, 20 or so 100s... whatever adds up to 4.5 min. of HARD work). Once he completes that, he may vie for the job again- but he will have to beat out the backup.
We are a small school- you've said you are too. We all know the reality- usually you have 1 good or average guy at a position period. He will probably get his job back then. But what you have done is:
1. made him earn it back so he regains good graces with teammates.
2. emphasized commitment / responsibility- for now and the future
3. emphasized retribution and forgiveness- again- for now and future
4. made a back-up a little better / little more attentive, thus making depth better (who knows... maybe the back up will surprise you. We went to the semifinals one year playing our 4th string center for the last 8 games... he turned out to be as good as any of the others).
5. let the team now, you can survive without anyone-everyone else has to step up their play.
Hopefully, you can get this all worked out... and I agree that a 17-18 year old should be allowed to make this decision (so he would then play)... but not all parents share the same sets of rules (we've had parents hold kids out if they had Cs. My parents would have given me a party if I had Cs).
Good luck.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2007 18:52:10 GMT -6
My thoughts as to why we might have a differing opinion. I see missing a game and then not being able to play as a consequence of an action not a punishment. It is the young man's choice (parent's choice). Football is a voluntary and no one is required to play. By being on the team, you are committing yourself to something greater than yourself. Just because football is lower on the list than God, Family and education, does not make it "irrelevant" inspite of those issues. The athlete is not being asked to miss the test all together, as this is clearly not the only time he is allowed to take it, nor does it interfere with the test in the first place. If you set the precedence that players can miss games without consequence, then you and your team will be at the mercy of the will of individuals. Afterall, is it fair to the team that said individual does not have to live up to his commitment? What about their (the rest of the team) punishment, because when you talk about punishment, the team are the ones who are punished. You are not punishing the kid, he is making a choice. I understand he needs to respect his parents and I agree with that point of view, however, the parents also need to realize that this player has made a commitment to the team and that is also important. You are right, the whole season is too extreme; don't play him for at least a game after the one he misses, that is what I think. Unless that captains of the team present a more plausible and unsolicited solution. Coachd5085, great post, I like your points and I see where you are coming from, however, I just think to let the kid play on without consequence is opening a can of worms, and I think a wedding is even worse. BUT HE IS MISSING THE GAME!!!!!!!! Do you really think that by not instituting some type of consequence (which is a punishment, regardless of how nicely you word it) you will fuel a rash of other players MISSING GAMES?  Players skip out of PRACTICES..not Games. Who on earth needs a deterrent to keep players from skipping out on GAMES? ? If you need a "no game skipping deterrent" your program is shot...isn't it? As far as the "numerous" other opportunities to take the test...that is not necessarily the case, NOR is it the coaches place to judge the parent's plan for the kid. The next available test would be in December, and while yes, some financial aid packages might be flexible, other financial aid opportunities might not be. Still, my main point of contention is that HE IS MISSING THE GAME!!!! That is why he put up with gassers, conditioning, metabolic squat days, puking, sprints, cleans, driving the sled, film study, 7 am Saturday meetings, etc... TO PLAY IN THE GAMES. Who needs to have a plan in place to keep kids from skipping GAMES. Talk to the parent, but don't hold the kids playing time over their heads. Also, make sure the parent/kid is familiar with the story of Wally Pip, and realize that this could potentially end up giving the backup the opportunity needed to get a spot that he won't relinquish. But I don't think any type of make-up work/consequence/deterrent/ benching...etc..is necessary for a kid who misses a game. If you need motivation to MAKE IT TO THE GAMES, then you as a coach should not have that kid in the game anyway. |
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Post by phantom on Jul 2, 2007 19:04:38 GMT -6
There ara a lot of good ideas here. This is a tough one since it's the mom's idea. Hopefully you can talk some sense into her. If not, count me into the camp that says work the kid but give him a chance to keep his job.
I don't like switching centers. Whatever you decide you may want to move him somewhere else on the line.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 2, 2007 20:17:34 GMT -6
I think from several other posts having a "missing a game rule" is needed. Where is the line drawn? How about a concert? Hunting? There clearly needs to be a rule and appropriate reprecussions for letting down your friends and team mates and your coaches. My #1 rule is can I trust you, count on you? If the answer is no I have absolutely no choice but to go with a player I can. When games are played, where, the days and times are all known well in advance and provide plenty of opportunity to make plans that do not conflict. For a varsity player to do this boggles the mind and believe me if he was so inclined he get Mom to understand how important it is he be there.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2007 20:32:16 GMT -6
Draw what line? Not to sound condescending...well, YES to sound condescending...if you have situations where your players (starters even) are choosing (remember, this isn't his choice) to do other things than play in the GAME... then I think you need to sit down and seriously SERIOUSLY reevaluate your program.
If you need to have a Deterrent to keep your kids from choosing other things over games, than you need to sit down and seriously SERIOUSLY reevaluate your program.
And to make inferences regarding a family situation and dynamic you know absolutely nothing about, ("and believe me if he was so inclined he [would] get Mom to understand how important it is he [would] be there") well, that just makes you look pretty bad, as well as reflects poorly on the profession as a whole.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 2, 2007 20:46:06 GMT -6
But coach it's not us it's parents and/or kids making choices. If you are building or rebuilding a program especially you are also going to be changing attitudes and expectations- there will always be some kids who are all about "me" and do not view football as something as important as others may. What about if you've been mathimatically eliminted from post season play so one or two B-ball guys decide they'd like to go ahead and get a jump on their B-ball season? And they are Jr's? It happens. I assure you if nothing is made of it you've said to them it's no big deal to me because he missed the reward. What his choice did to all of you does not matter to me he missed a game that's his punishment. Come on coach have a plan in writing how this get dealt with- if it happens once every 5 years it's still good to have in writing how it gets dealt with.
"And to make inferences regarding a family situation and dynamic you know absolutely nothing about, ("and believe me if he was so inclined he [would] get Mom to understand how important it is he [would] be there") well, that just makes you look pretty ignorant"
Explain how?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2007 20:58:50 GMT -6
AJ---in your first situation...you aren't talking about missing a game, you are talking about QUITTING THE TEAM. Absolutely horrible example.
As for the second paragraph, I went back and edited my post, because I thought "ignorant" might have been harsh, but if you really need me to explain to you why you look ignorant commenting on a family decision and dynamic that you know absolutely nothing about, well, then I guess the word was appropriate.
It is as ignorant as me saying "And belive me, if your 5 tech was really so inclined, he could split that double team" without ever seeing the kid play, nor know anything about him.
I maintain that if you have your kids making choices for things OTHER than a game... even FUN things like Hunting trips and such...and it is the KIDS choice (not always the case), then you NEED TO REEVALUATE your program.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 2, 2007 21:37:45 GMT -6
Coach they are not quitting if it's the last game- they are choosing to miss their reward and move on to their next season.
LOL, I base my comment on over 20 years of dealing with kids and parents and simialr issues. The kids who really want to be there and do whatever, have gotten things worked out. Sometimes it's as simple as sitting down with Mom and Dad and letting them know how important the game, practice, lifting, camp is to them. Sometimes you have parents who were not athletes at all and they think it's just a game and they think their son thinks that as well. They truly do not understand how big a deal it is to their child- how badly he does not want to fail his friends and coaches by not being there for them. Athletes who really want to be there enlist their coaches to help persuade Mom and Dad, they ask their counselors to call or schedule meetings with Mom and Dad, heck I've had them come in with Mom and Dad and sit down with us coaches, the counselor and the AD to help their parents see the light. Has this kid done anything other then say "I can't play Mom won't let me"? I did not just make an off the cuff comment it's based on experience.
In over 20 years I've had a kid, a single kid, that would be one, not get something worked out so they could play, practice, attend off season work, and camps- if that was truly what was important to them. There are many, to many , who'll look for any excuse or blame Mom and Dad so it appears it's not on them, not there fault. I know because I've called them on it by talking directly to Mom and Dad and I've yet to run across one who was the least to blame though their son's were putting it there. I've spoken to some who say simply "I never knew it meant so much to him". Hence my comment- hardly ignorant based on what I've experienced.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2007 22:01:24 GMT -6
First statement---I disagree. They have quit the team. They are choosing to no longer be apart of the football team, and instead play basketball. HOWEVER, I would maintain that YOU NEED TO EVALUATE YOUR PROGRAM if you have kids of this mentality.
As for the rest--I don't care how much experience you have with kids/families, you made an absolute statement regarding regarding individuals you know absolutely nothing about. That makes it ignorant. It wasn't a qualified statement "It has been my experience...." It was absolute.
And again, this is all about GAMES. Practice.... I agree 100%. Conditioning? You are preaching to the choir. If you are going to miss the hard stuff...we are going to have a problem.
I just think if you are worried about kids skipping your GAMES to do other things.... then you have some serious issues.
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. Get creative is my advice. 
I don't have the words. I do, but most of them would be censored here. 
