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Post by gmccown on Mar 26, 2007 14:32:16 GMT -6
Might interest you that I...a former OL/DL player and now a DW coach...(hisses and boo's are now appropriate)...have spent two weeks the last two summers working youth and HS passing camps in an attempt to learn more about the QB position. Guess what I found out...at these camps...even with the kids that go every year...the better athletes are better QB's....wow...all that technique and I can still look around the field in warm ups and tell you who the top 5-10 QB's are out of 100 plus kids. I can also tell you that the coach with the bottom 5-6 (which are also easily noticed) sure as hell better not run a spread system...In fact I'd venture if your starter is say....25 and back at this camp you better run the ball (and many of 25-50 are starters around the state).
What happens when your starter is # 3 at the camp...and your backup is #65...all the camps and technique in the world won't make him a good QB. But I bet he can toss and lead or handoff and boot. Mabey he can even throw a hand grenade style pass to one of those damn double wing corner routes and get "lucky".
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 26, 2007 14:39:11 GMT -6
I guess I am amazed at how poor athletes that some of you see. I helped a local guy with some 8 man HS teams and there were still 4-5 kids that could throw a football well.
In the end, it doesn't matter because we all do what we think we need to be successful. For whatever reasons.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2007 16:34:04 GMT -6
i think coaches do what they are taught and sense a majority of h.s. coaches run the ball, this is what they learn. sure of a few of us outlaw bandits break away but for the most part the run game prevails. sort of like in europe where is your dad is the garabage collector, you are going to be the garbage collector.
I am a outlaw. I went to a h.s. which ran the wishbone and a college for 3 years which ran the wishbone. I cursed taht offense a long time ago(sorry but that bone guys). the wishbone is a great offense if oyu never get behind in the second half. 14 dwon in the 14 you are gonig to lost 99 percent of the time.
reality is, my first coaching assignment was with a gunslinger and I am greatful for that.
to me passing the ball has become natural because I have figured it out and I have also figured out, the majority of h.s. dbs are terriable pass defenders and a well run route by a average wr can break down a all confrence db. however, one must be fully committed to the passing game IMO. you are going to live with it or you are going to die with it. no in between imo. not enough time to practice the run game. a 4 yd hitch screen isa toss sweep to me. to me 4 yds is great. it sets up the b52 bombs away approach later.
I realize not every one wants to live this way so that is why they run the ball. I do not think I would be a good run coach. My logic would not be in line. If I ran the double wing it woudl be a 2 minute tempo the whole game. not sure if that would mesh with the double wing control the colege mentality.
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 26, 2007 16:47:39 GMT -6
airman, you would get along great with "mahonz" on my site...hes a semi pro coach and won the championship with the spread and the double wing together. hes really into the spread concepts even with young kids. hes come to love the change up that the dw offers though and finds that his semi pros love it (anything that gets a big ring for the guys is alright by them)...I tell ya, and this is a promise, some day, before I croak, Im going to take a team and THROW THE BALL ON EVERY SINGLE DAGGONE DOWN OF THE SEASON...just to see what happens. Just heave it 70 times a game.
now about coaching what we were taught...eh, well, when I was 12 I played in a ground and pound short wing box offense and we rolled with it. In jr high we were a split back/pro I team with some power i mixed in...we shared a championship...in high school we were pretty good, typically about 7-4, 8-3 and a Pro I team mostly....but the teams we lost too? teams that could smash and grind and we couldnt do a darn thing about it. and of course we lost some games because we turned the ball over with our "balanced" attack...so, I dunno, didnt matter to me what I played in...I just always loved the running game. even as a kid, playing electric football or "m network football" on atari or intellevision football (really dating myself now) and of course the early nintendo tecmo bowl games...id run the rock no matter what!...love to run and take the "pass to score" when its there.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2007 17:25:20 GMT -6
i grew up running the ball too. I just grew up watching the sd charger and dan fouts. chargers never had defense but they were oh so high powered. then I fell in love with BYU and their 5 equals 50(5 yd pass can equal a 50 yd run), then I remember watching old raiders films of the bombs away vertical passing attack with marc wilson as the qb. then the run and shoot. Heck I am going to watch some houston run and shoot film tonite if possible for sure this weekend.
I think what also helps college and pros is the hashmarks. in high school the field is divided into 1/3ds while in college the hashmarks are 20 yds and the pros they keep the ball in teh middle of the field. this gives more room to pass the ball in.
it is really why the run and shoot does so well in h.s. cause it is made for the h.s. hash marks.
personally I am exploring going back to a 4 wr and using the pistol with the run and shoot.
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Post by phantom on Mar 26, 2007 18:09:19 GMT -6
We run the ball because it's who we are. It's what we believe in It's our personality. We don't sell out on the run. We're a Pro I team but we also run some 1-back. When we have a good passer we'll throw the ball. We'll also throw when the defense sells out on the run. We're not always physically superior up front, either. This year we had some big, strong kids but out center was about 180 and our LT was about 210. They'd done their share in the weight room, though, and were strong. They were also very coachable and hard workers and became great technicians. Our fans sometimes yell for us to run the ball. On the other hand, a local sportswriter recently rated the offenses in our region over the last seven years and we came out on top. This wasn't a case of walking over overmatched opponents. During that time we've won three state championships. I'm not saying that our way is the only way. We played a passing team in the finals last year who gave us all we could handle. Running the ball is what we believe in, though. We do have a Plan B and we work the 2-minute drill hard. We WILL run the ball, though.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2007 18:45:04 GMT -6
that sounds like a good philosophy phantom. you have to do what works for you.
if truth be told I would rather be like northern Illinois. 2 te,2wr and oneback run the zone run game and a dropback passing attack. however with time constraints, I am like leach like and work on passing.
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billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
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Post by billyn on Mar 26, 2007 18:45:53 GMT -6
We're always going to have the ability to both throw and run the ball. That said, the best thing about a ground game is the ability to take the game out of the quarterbacks hands. In a pass happy system you are putting a lot of the offenses success on the execution of one player, the quarterback. I guess it gets down to a lack of trust in the dependability of high school kids on any given night. I'm not building my offense around the quarterback. I'm going to build an offense that a good quarterback can excel in, and an average or poor quarterback can mangage. We're going to have the ability schematically to throw it if we need to, and take the air out of the ball if we need to.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2007 19:54:44 GMT -6
We're always going to have the ability to both throw and run the ball. That said, the best thing about a ground game is the ability to take the game out of the quarterbacks hands. In a pass happy system you are putting a lot of the offenses success on the execution of one player, the quarterback. I guess it gets down to a lack of trust in the dependability of high school kids on any given night. I'm not building my offense around the quarterback. I'm going to build an offense that a good quarterback can excel in, and an average or poor quarterback can mangage. We're going to have the ability schematically to throw it if we need to, and take the air out of the ball if we need to. I think you put it into perspective. Most coaches do not trust their qb. I can see this point. it is a lot to put on a kids shoulders. I personally think if you are a ground pounder team and you do not involve the qb in the running game some how, you are always playing a man short. the qb can fake play action tell the cows come home but if the scouting report says they throw 3 times agame, not much sense in respecting the pass. I guess I look at it this way, the teams which win state have the best qb hands down. it is just how it is, be they a runner or passer the qb is the leader, the play and difference maker.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 26, 2007 21:04:18 GMT -6
I tell ya, and this is a promise, some day, before I croak, Im going to take a team and THROW THE BALL ON EVERY SINGLE DAGGONE DOWN OF THE SEASON...just to see what happens. Just heave it 70 times a game. It took 5 years of arguing with you....but now I have it in print !! Glad I stopped by this evening. ;D Coach Mike
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 26, 2007 21:49:09 GMT -6
I am a outlaw. I went to a h.s. which ran the wishbone and a college for 3 years which ran the wishbone. I cursed taht offense a long time ago(sorry but that bone guys). the wishbone is a great offense if oyu never get behind in the second half.
Airman... now you make sense to me. We are exact opposites. We were a run and shoot in college... I hated it because we could march up and down the field until the 25... then we were like a mime trapped in a box (Plus I was a disgruntled RB... 3rd RB in a bone gets me on the field, in a spread, I played sparingly. Often when running on to the field to pass block or release in to a check down pattern I heard the head coach say "Fine... put him in. Just make sure he doesn't get the ball.")
Airman... you are the anti-bluto (Dean Wormer???)
"The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me." -Dean Wormer
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Post by brophy on Mar 26, 2007 21:56:10 GMT -6
Most coaches do not trust their qb. I guess I look at it this way, the teams which win state have the best qb hands down. it is just how it is, be they a runner or passer the qb is the leader, the play and difference maker. again, goes back to the point of the thread. Those 'spread' teams (if you will) INVEST greatly in QB development. They are training 2-4 quarterbacks at 14 years old with high expectations. Of those 4 quarterbacks, 1 usually shines by his senior year, and the others become receivers. My point is, those programs really invest a lot of time in developing quarterbacks and realize they just don't transfer to your school in the off-season already coached up. Recognizing what it takes to develop a leader / throwing mechanics is not much different than training that all-world lineman or All-State linebacker. It just doesn't 'happen' - you have to develop that kind of athlete. And if that sort of time commitment / expectations / discipline of training intimidates some, they will abandon "quarterbacking" as an after-thought.
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billyn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 231
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Post by billyn on Mar 27, 2007 17:52:48 GMT -6
Coach, just because you don't want to build your offense entirely around the passing game doesn't mean that you don't develop your quarterbacks. I've been in a couple of offenses that required a very specific set of skills at the quarterback postion. Split back veer and run and shoot. We were very successful in both. Multiple state champions. Still, I've seen really good qb's screw up the whole offense with a bad night. We threw the ball last year on average 18 times a game, and averaged 142 a game through the air. Not exactly Texas Tech, but in high school football pretty good balance. We averaged right at 200 a game on the ground. I've got nothing against throwing the ball. I still believe that the best offense is one that is balanced enough to be able to run when it wants to and throw when it wants to. As a philosophy, I want to be able to take the air out of the ball, control the clock, and play defense if I have to. I've watched Texas Tech and other spread teams like OU in their National Championship run get into situations where the qb is stinking it up, and it gets real hard for them to do anything on offense. I heard Kevin Gilbride himself say one time that in the run and shoot you really need two qbs in case one is having an off night. I don't have time to get two qbs ready to play each week. Again its just a philosophy thing. I'm hedging my bets. I'm going to have balance of offense.
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Post by coachcalande on Mar 28, 2007 5:52:43 GMT -6
I hate hearing that a qb that doesnt throw the ball much in games isnt being developed. Its not like footwork, running, faking, ball handling, leadership, play calling, huddle management and practice involving throwing the ball every day is somehow failing to prepare a qb? At one school I coached at, I took a kid whom the varsity coach DIDNT THINK would ever be a varsity qb, three years later as a SOPH he was the varsity starting qb and has been for three years. Character is the most important thing you can develop in a quarterback if you ask me. anyhow, whats a ground and pound discussion without a little double wing video in the mix... here are some pop warner champions playing on Navy stadium... video.google.com/videoplay?docid=323326474851586536
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Mar 28, 2007 6:33:08 GMT -6
I hate hearing that a qb that doesnt throw the ball much in games isnt being developed. Its not like footwork, running, faking, ball handling, leadership, play calling, huddle management and practice involving throwing the ball every day is somehow failing to prepare a qb? At one school I coached at, I took a kid whom the varsity coach DIDNT THINK would ever be a varsity qb, three years later as a SOPH he was the varsity starting qb and has been for three years. Character is the most important thing you can develop in a quarterback if you ask me. anyhow, whats a ground and pound discussion without a little double wing video in the mix... here are some pop warner champions playing on Navy stadium... video.google.com/videoplay?docid=323326474851586536I never took this thread as accusatory. I see it as a question, not a statement. To me he was asking IF QB play is undervalued, not stating it is. I could be wrong. I also think running dominated coaches see QBs differently then passing coaches.
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Post by CVBears on Mar 28, 2007 11:12:06 GMT -6
I hate hearing that a qb that doesnt throw the ball much in games isnt being developed. Its not like footwork, running, faking, ball handling, leadership, play calling, huddle management and practice involving throwing the ball every day is somehow failing to prepare a qb? Is a coach developing their talent if... a wide receiver never catches a ball in a game? a wide receiver never run blocks? a linebacker that can only tackle and not cover? a running back only runs to the left? a running back never pass blocks? a lineman only pass blocks? a quarterback that never gives a hand off? I agree with coachcalande in that there are many facets to take into consideration when one develops talent. I can even agree that he is developing his quarterbacks in areas that are important to the game of football. However, it is my personal philosophy that "developing talent" means developing skills first. A QB should be able to hand off and throw the ball. A RB should take a hand off from the left and right and be able to pass protect. OL should be able to run block and pass protect. WR's should be able to run a good route, catch passes and run block. Just my opinion
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 14:14:46 GMT -6
I hate hearing that a qb that doesnt throw the ball much in games isnt being developed. Its not like footwork, running, faking, ball handling, leadership, play calling, huddle management and practice involving throwing the ball every day is somehow failing to prepare a qb? At one school I coached at, I took a kid whom the varsity coach DIDNT THINK would ever be a varsity qb, three years later as a SOPH he was the varsity starting qb and has been for three years. Character is the most important thing you can develop in a quarterback if you ask me. anyhow, whats a ground and pound discussion without a little double wing video in the mix... here are some pop warner champions playing on Navy stadium... video.google.com/videoplay?docid=323326474851586536while all those skills are important the vast majority of dw qb throw wounded ducks for passes. I say the same for wishbone qb, I should know I started out as one. while pounding the ball is good for some, I personally would have to get a lawnchair setup. to me there is nothing finer then a long pass for a td. if the ball was supposed to not be thrown it would look like a rugby ball. however the american football is areodynamic. it is made to be thrown.
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Post by brophy on Mar 28, 2007 14:56:52 GMT -6
There is no defense for a perfectly thrown ball. There is no defense for a run that is perfectly blocked by all 9-10 players.
I guess this thread started out, not as an indictment, but just a hypothesis.
Essentially, is the run game so popular because of an intimidation of teaching the "fine-art" of proper quarterbacking?
There were some reasons given to support that kind of hypothesis.
I certainly don't think there is a simplistic, Nicolodean answer for this one, because if the run-game in-and-of-itself was bad, you could make that inference, but it's not. Because there are so many reason WHY we run the ball, I don't think it would be fair to just say there is only one reason why people run predominately (out of fear).
Its like growing up in Italy and wondering why there is such an importance given to the tomato. Is it REALLY that important of an ingredient to entrees, or is it just because of the influencing culture I grew up in?
If you grew up with a tomato plants everywhere, you'd probably think that if you didn't have tomatoes in your food, it was bad (spaghetti, lasagne, pizza, Risotto, Fettucini, Cannelloni )....so naturally, I'd probably think you were a little weird if you're cooking potatoes, corn, and crawfish.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 28, 2007 15:54:49 GMT -6
brophy..we BOIL potatoes, corn and crawfish...not cook...BOIL. This was a very interesting thread. However, I still feel (even though according to the polls, the coaches themselves don't feel that way) that ground pound teams do fine when they can bully the opposition, and struggle when they NEED to pass (behind in game, not getting a push)
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on Mar 28, 2007 15:59:15 GMT -6
The game in Navy stadium would be much cooler if there were actually fans in the stadium-LOL- I'll bet that was a great experience for the kids.
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 16:08:24 GMT -6
so here is a offesne we can all agree on, you run 50% AND you pass 50%. so one should run the geo southern triple option set and combine mouse davis runs and shoot. oh would it be nice, however it is not easy and if it could be done, some one would have done it by now.
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 16:09:44 GMT -6
so here is a offesne we can all agree on, you run 50% AND you pass 50%. so one should run the geo southern triple option set and combine mouse davis runs and shoot. oh would it be nice, however it is not easy and if it could be done, some one would have done it by now. i think the most balanced team I ever saw was grand valley state several years ago. they ran for like 250 and passed for 255. another team is wheaton college Il. they are typically very balanced from a pro and open I set plus some shotgun.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 28, 2007 16:14:54 GMT -6
Actually Airman, I prefer running the football to passing. I would be a groundpounder...however, I have seen too many instances (including staffs I was on) where being a ground pounding team presented a false sense of security. 300+ yards rushing were not the result of excellent execution on fridays, but on having a team with over 30 players who could hang clean over 275 lbs. When faced with other weightroom warhorses... we just didn't have the right mindset.
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 17:08:43 GMT -6
Actually Airman, I prefer running the football to passing. I would be a groundpounder...however, I have seen too many instances (including staffs I was on) where being a ground pounding team presented a false sense of security. 300+ yards rushing were not the result of excellent execution on fridays, but on having a team with over 30 players who could hang clean over 275 lbs. When faced with other weightroom warhorses... we just didn't have the right mindset. this is true seems to happen at state every year. a team has swept throught the season and playoffs, then in the final game, they cannot move the ball. heck if i run theball 10 times people start to get worried about my mental status. I am still looking for what I call the perfect game(the game where I have 0 rushing attempts. ) I bet that would be a record.
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 17:17:17 GMT -6
Here in Nebraska Millard North ( Eric Crouch's old school) often has games with zero rushing attempts. My guess at least 4-5 games per year. Option team they run it every way imagineable. They also often have in excess of 500 yards rushing. They are always in the hunt and I think have won several state titles in the last several years as well as a few near misses. you mean O passing attempts, not rushing attempts. I see 0 passing attempts often. I have never however seen 0 rushing attempts.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 28, 2007 17:28:20 GMT -6
HAHAHAH...dave is such a groundpounder that he can't get it right. PASSING attempts. Not zero rushing attempts..the team has ZERO PASSING attempts. Gotta love the groundpound mindset They have rushing on the brain:) Just having some fun with you
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 17:52:01 GMT -6
I am going to do it by the end of my career(I figure I have 25 years to go). some day, it will be in the USA today, so and so high school has 0 rushing attempts. it is a worthy goal. best if done in a state championship game.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 28, 2007 17:57:11 GMT -6
Dave..I was teasing you about your reply where you say "Yes, rushing attempts" after airman pointed out your faux pas. Again, it was completely harmless , I was just poking fun. Sorry if upsetting.
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Post by CVBears on Mar 28, 2007 18:18:12 GMT -6
Now that is one heck of an offense, 500+ yards of rushing with zero rushing attempts. Can I see the playbook?
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Post by airman on Mar 28, 2007 18:19:15 GMT -6
so where is this school in relation to omaha? what is it like to live in nebraska? I was a big red fan for many years since I was a option qb. however I met up with gary crowton and then I saw what la tech pass offense did to nebraska defense. not much of a game but it sure woke a lot of people up.
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