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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 7, 2024 10:55:42 GMT -6
We are middle of the road enrollment for our classification. We get about 100 kids out for football each year for the last 8-10 years.
We ended our season last Friday in a play-off game. It was competitive 14-14 at half and then we struggled the 2nd half and lost 35-20.
I had a booster tell me that after seeing these seniors as 9th graders he expected more....honestly me too. But his comments didn't sit well.
However!!!!!! From that freshmen class that are seniors:
#1 WR moved and is a DII recruit
#1 LB had 4 concussions his sophomore year (only 1 football related) and hasn't been cleared to play. Varsity starter as soph.
#2 WR had an injury every year since 9th grade that limited him to 2/3 games a season.
#1 RB had a shoulder injury wrestling and never played another rep of football- was a state qualifier in wrestling
# 2 and #3 LB dropped out of school
#3 WR had family issues and got a job never played again
of the 5 starting lineman 2 of them quit after their sophomore season and one got injured in the off season and never played again
During this season:
Junior- guard/DE- ACL
Junior- TE/DE- total knee dislocation- nasty
Junior- LB/F- shoulder
Junior- WR/SS- broke both bones in lower leg
Senior-OL/DT- torn meniscus
Soph- QB torn meniscus
Soph- WR broken collar bone
We were 5-5 and lost 2 games by 3 and 4 points respectively with chances to win in the last minute. Both of those teams are in the Semi-finals.
As much as I had looked forward to this group of athletes competing for a title I am incredibly impressed with what they accomplished under the circumstances.
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Post by blb on Nov 7, 2024 11:53:05 GMT -6
CanyonCoach That's a lot of attrition in three years, and a lot of serious injuries for one season. You might have done a great coaching job just to go 5-5 and lose close twice to Semi-finalists. "For all the words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these: It might have been!"
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Post by silkyice on Nov 7, 2024 14:37:15 GMT -6
We are middle of the road enrollment for our classification. We get about 100 kids out for football each year for the last 8-10 years. We ended our season last Friday in a play-off game. It was competitive 14-14 at half and then we struggled the 2nd half and lost 35-20. I had a booster tell me that after seeing these seniors as 9th graders he expected more....honestly me too. But his comments didn't sit well. However!!!!!! From that freshmen class that are seniors: #1 WR moved and is a DII recruit #1 LB had 4 concussions his sophomore year (only 1 football related) and hasn't been cleared to play. Varsity starter as soph. #2 WR had an injury every year since 9th grade that limited him to 2/3 games a season. #1 RB had a shoulder injury wrestling and never played another rep of football- was a state qualifier in wrestling # 2 and #3 LB dropped out of school #3 WR had family issues and got a job never played again of the 5 starting lineman 2 of them quit after their sophomore season and one got injured in the off season and never played again During this season: Junior- guard/DE- ACL Junior- TE/DE- total knee dislocation- nasty Junior- LB/F- shoulder Junior- WR/SS- broke both bones in lower leg Senior-OL/DT- torn meniscus Soph- QB torn meniscus Soph- WR broken collar bone We were 5-5 and lost 2 games by 3 and 4 points respectively with chances to win in the last minute. Both of those teams are in the Semi-finals. As much as I had looked forward to this group of athletes competing for a title I am incredibly impressed with what they accomplished under the circumstances. Y'all might want to revaluate your strength program. Could all be a coincidence, but that is a lot of injuries. Could be wrong. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 7, 2024 15:22:02 GMT -6
In my time of coaching, we had our greatest HS successes with teams that were terrible in JFL. The Sr group that went to the quarterfinals only won like 3 JFL games in like 5 years. My most disappointing team I was HC of was supposed to be my "most talented group ever". They ended up being entitled, lazy, pain in the ass slugs.
IMO, as a society, we've became so obsessed with youth sports and this idea of "potential" that we just assume if someone has success at some time, that's just going to continue forever. They don't factor in work ethic, home life, etc. They also tend to kiss the ass of these toddler Bradys and those kids think they're going to be great before they hit puberty. They can't grasp how a Heisman winner can be out of the league in 3 years while a 6th rounder becomes the greatest QB ever.
Meanwhile, the runts in grade school and Jr High, if they can tough it out, usually end up being better athletes in HS after puberty hits. They have work ethic, they have a chip on their shoulder.
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 7, 2024 19:55:59 GMT -6
Meanwhile, the runts in grade school and Jr High, if they can tough it out, usually end up being better athletes in HS after puberty hits. They have work ethic, they have a chip on their shoulder. yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. |
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Nov 8, 2024 5:23:35 GMT -6
Meanwhile, the runts in grade school and Jr High, if they can tough it out, usually end up being better athletes in HS after puberty hits. They have work ethic, they have a chip on their shoulder. yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. I took it more as your never entirely certain what a kid going to look like after puberty, and there plenty of times the better athlete before puberty isn't afterwards. I think this is especially true with big guys. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 8, 2024 5:36:42 GMT -6
yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. I took it more as your never entirely certain what a kid going to look like after puberty, and there plenty of times the better athlete before puberty isn't afterwards. I think this is especially true with big guys. Jackpot. |
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Post by MICoach on Nov 8, 2024 7:16:50 GMT -6
yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. I took it more as your never entirely certain what a kid going to look like after puberty, and there plenty of times the better athlete before puberty isn't afterwards. I think this is especially true with big guys. We have had plenty of kids come in that were absolute studs in 6th/7th grade but then didn't grow at all after age 14 - freshmen starters who just slowly get further and further from meaningful playing time. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 8, 2024 7:27:16 GMT -6
Being an early maturer is often a key to athletic success. I would weigh a substantial sum that the large majority of successful athletes are those with the genetics to be big, strong and fast as a finished product and to happen to enter the maturation process early.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 8, 2024 11:03:55 GMT -6
Being an early maturer is often a key to athletic success. I would weigh a substantial sum that the large majority of successful athletes are those with the genetics to be big, strong and fast as a finished product and to happen to enter the maturation process early. Yep. Of course, there are plenty of examples of young studs being busts, and conversely, kids growing and developing into good players. But if you let me get the first 20 picks when the kids are in 6th grade and you take the next 20 picks, I am going to win in 6 years. Every time. |
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Post by mrjvi on Nov 8, 2024 11:40:53 GMT -6
Great thread. Hope it gets lots of comments. Through strength and conditioning I've had to "make" players. They might not be natural athletes, having got them after great developmental skills should have been developed, but when they are strong and powerful they can learn the rudimentary skills needed in specific positions and be valuable. Obviously you need some athletes as well.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 8, 2024 13:47:01 GMT -6
Being an early maturer is often a key to athletic success. I would weigh a substantial sum that the large majority of successful athletes are those with the genetics to be big, strong and fast as a finished product and to happen to enter the maturation process early. Yep. Of course, there are plenty of examples of young studs being busts, and conversely, kids growing and developing into good players. But if you let me get the first 20 picks when the kids are in 6th grade and you take the next 20 picks, I am going to win in 6 years. Every time. I'll take that bet and there's no way you're winning 100% |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 8, 2024 14:19:36 GMT -6
Yep. Of course, there are plenty of examples of young studs being busts, and conversely, kids growing and developing into good players. But if you let me get the first 20 picks when the kids are in 6th grade and you take the next 20 picks, I am going to win in 6 years. Every time. I'll take that bet and there's no way you're winning 100% I will try and run a statistical analysis. But I would be shocked if that isn’t almost a statistical certainty. Taught stats for years. I do want to be clear on 2 things. 1) this has nothing to do with my ability to pick kids. If you had the top 20 picks and I had the next 20, I would be certain that you would win every time also. 2) I am talking about a normal situation. Like a random high school. I am not talking about a situation where we are comparing the top 20 picks in the NFL draft vs the next 20 picks. That is a situation where everyone is already elite. By the way, I still think that that would be a statistical slaughter also on any given year. You take a normal high school, they probably only have 20ish kids that you would even want on the field. |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 8, 2024 15:23:16 GMT -6
You guys are finding 20?!? Haha
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 9, 2024 10:28:33 GMT -6
Yep. Of course, there are plenty of examples of young studs being busts, and conversely, kids growing and developing into good players. But if you let me get the first 20 picks when the kids are in 6th grade and you take the next 20 picks, I am going to win in 6 years. Every time. I'll take that bet and there's no way you're winning 100% While I agree that the 100% threshold is a bit hyperbolic (and I am sure that Silkice knows that too) the idea behind it still holds true. Kid that mature earlier than others dominate in sports. Kids that are predestined to be big, strong, and fast and mature early make up the majority of your best players on a large scale basis. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 9, 2024 16:41:26 GMT -6
I'll take that bet and there's no way you're winning 100% While I agree that the 100% threshold is a bit hyperbolic (and I am sure that Silkice knows that too) the idea behind it still holds true. Kid that mature earlier than others dominate in sports. Kids that are predestined to be big, strong, and fast and mature early make up the majority of your best players on a large scale basis. Actually the 100% is not hyperbolic. At some point it is true. What if I said you get the first 100 picks, and I get the next 100? Make it 1000 and I get the next 1000? I actually believe around 15 would be pretty close to 100% that my group of 15 is definitely better than your group of 15. You have to remember, that every extra pick I get, is a pick you don't you get. 20 is overkill in my opinion. And while sure, the 30th kid could end up being one of the top 10 (and maybe even the top kid), there is a really really good chance that only 5 of those bottom 20 EVER even start. So you end up with 5 starters and I have the other 17. Heck, let's say that 10 of your 20 end up starting, I still have 12. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 9, 2024 17:00:51 GMT -6
While I agree that the 100% threshold is a bit hyperbolic (and I am sure that Silkice knows that too) the idea behind it still holds true. Kid that mature earlier than others dominate in sports. Kids that are predestined to be big, strong, and fast and mature early make up the majority of your best players on a large scale basis. Actually the 100% is not hyperbolic. At some point it is true. What if I said you get the first 100 picks, and I get the next 100? Make it 1000 and I get the next 1000? I actually believe around 15 would be pretty close to 100% that my group of 15 is definitely better than your group of 15. You have to remember, that every extra pick I get, is a pick you don't you get. 20 is overkill in my opinion. And while sure, the 30th kid could end up being one of the top 10 (and maybe even the top kid), there is a really really good chance that only 5 of those bottom 20 EVER even start. So you end up with 5 starters and I have the other 17. Heck, let's say that 10 of your 20 end up starting, I still have 12. Well, then you are wrong. I have actually been a part of something just like this. Youth Baseball... a "B" all star team comprised solely of kids picked after the first 14 kids went to the "A" team, was 2-0 against the "A" team. Just talking pure numbers here. The principle is the same and we agree on it. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 9, 2024 17:40:56 GMT -6
Actually the 100% is not hyperbolic. At some point it is true. What if I said you get the first 100 picks, and I get the next 100? Make it 1000 and I get the next 1000? I actually believe around 15 would be pretty close to 100% that my group of 15 is definitely better than your group of 15. You have to remember, that every extra pick I get, is a pick you don't you get. 20 is overkill in my opinion. And while sure, the 30th kid could end up being one of the top 10 (and maybe even the top kid), there is a really really good chance that only 5 of those bottom 20 EVER even start. So you end up with 5 starters and I have the other 17. Heck, let's say that 10 of your 20 end up starting, I still have 12. Well, then you are wrong. I have actually been a part of something just like this. Youth Baseball... a "B" all star team comprised solely of kids picked after the first 14 kids went to the "A" team, was 2-0 against the "A" team. Just talking pure numbers here. The principle is the same and we agree on it. Excellent point. And that situation does not surprise me at all. Let me clarify again. I 100% am not talking about baseball or basketball. If it was basketball, it literally could only take 1 kid in the bottom 20 to turn into a d1 player in most situations and his team will be better. You put a AA minor league team in baseball and they are still going to win 20 game in the majors. Football is not the same. BUT BUT BUT, the key point is that you took all-star team A and all-star team B. Go back and read where I said a normal situation. For example, a school with 100 sixth graders. Pick the top 20 kids and the next person takes the picks the next 20. Everyone still goes through the same program, etc. In six years when they are seniors, I am 100% certain that the top 20 would have the better team if you then split them up based on the picks 6 years earlier. |
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Post by jml on Nov 10, 2024 11:47:20 GMT -6
While I agree that the 100% threshold is a bit hyperbolic (and I am sure that Silkice knows that too) the idea behind it still holds true. Kid that mature earlier than others dominate in sports. Kids that are predestined to be big, strong, and fast and mature early make up the majority of your best players on a large scale basis. Actually the 100% is not hyperbolic. At some point it is true. What if I said you get the first 100 picks, and I get the next 100? Make it 1000 and I get the next 1000? I actually believe around 15 would be pretty close to 100% that my group of 15 is definitely better than your group of 15. You have to remember, that every extra pick I get, is a pick you don't you get. 20 is overkill in my opinion. And while sure, the 30th kid could end up being one of the top 10 (and maybe even the top kid), there is a really really good chance that only 5 of those bottom 20 EVER even start. So you end up with 5 starters and I have the other 17. Heck, let's say that 10 of your 20 end up starting, I still have 12. I had an experience that would counter this. Signed up to be a 7th Jr High Assistant coach when I was in a junior in college. It was my first experience coaching. 50 kids show up so the head varsity coach decides we need an A and a B team. First day we put them through some drills and are suppose to meet the next day to figure out how we will split the teams up. I come back the 2nd day and am told I am head coach of the B team, I have 2 assistances just out of high school, and 1 one who was the parent of the one of the boys on my team. The head coach of the A team took the best 25 and gave me what was left. Was given the bs: "we want to keep the good kids together and we want the better athletes to have a positive experience so they keep playing football" We practiced separately Monday-Wednesday, but with our games on weekends we would scrimmage each other every Thursday. We beat their ass every Thursday, wasn't close. Our kids were so pissed and just played with hate that we bloodied them. Our final season record was 2-2-2 (crazy to have so many ties) and they went 4-2 or 3-3 so a little better but not a ton. The next season 21 of my 25 kids played, 12 of their 25 did. So of course the head coach of the A team was the head coach of the combined 8th grade team. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2024 11:58:27 GMT -6
Well, then you are wrong. I have actually been a part of something just like this. Youth Baseball... a "B" all star team comprised solely of kids picked after the first 14 kids went to the "A" team, was 2-0 against the "A" team. Just talking pure numbers here. The principle is the same and we agree on it. Excellent point. And that situation does not surprise me at all. Let me clarify again. I 100% am not talking about baseball or basketball. If it was basketball, it literally could only take 1 kid in the bottom 20 to turn into a d1 player in most situations and his team will be better. You put a AA minor league team in baseball and they are still going to win 20 game in the majors. Football is not the same. BUT BUT BUT, the key point is that you took all-star team A and all-star team B. Go back and read where I said a normal situation. For example, a school with 100 sixth graders. Pick the top 20 kids and the next person takes the picks the next 20. Everyone still goes through the same program, etc. In six years when they are seniors, I am 100% certain that the top 20 would have the better team if you then split them up based on the picks 6 years earlier. Better team? I would agree with this. A team that beats the other 100% of the time? Again, I would say this is not accurate, purely because of the specific nature of 100%. The point still remains however, that kids who mature earlier do better in sports. And kids who mature early, who are predestined to be bigger stronger and faster, obviously reach these bigger/stronger/faster benchmarks before others. Bottom line, the kids who start maturing early have greater success in youth and HS sports. There are vastly more "man child" success stories than there are kids who entered HS at 5'4 118 and played as a senior at 6'1 220. Outliers don't change this fact. |
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Post by tigerpride on Nov 10, 2024 12:03:59 GMT -6
Middle school or frosh success doesn't always mean varsity success. My only trip to the state championship game consisted of kids who went 1-9 their 8th grade year. They all bought into the program, worked hard and developed. Lol, they all had great parents.
My last 8th grade champ team did me in, I resigned after their Jr season and the new coach went 3-8.
Love boosters lol.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2024 12:23:44 GMT -6
Middle school or frosh success doesn't always mean varsity success. My only trip to the state championship game consisted of kids who went 1-9 their 8th grade year. They all bought into the program, worked hard and developed. Lol, they all had great parents. My last 8th grade champ team did me in, I resigned after their Jr season and the new coach went 3-8. Love boosters lol. Absolutely. And I don't think anyone is claiming that Middle school success = sure fire varsity success. There are often several factors. One of the most dominant middle school/8th grade teams I have ever seen didn't have a great HS success. But in middle school, they ran a 4-3 with two 4I tackles, 2 6 techs, 2 9 techs, 2 corners, 2 safeties and a 00 mike. The 00 mike was an early maturing kid, who was completely through puberty. He also happen to be a kid whose parents were both SEC athletes--so his "early maturing" meant that he was a 6-2 205 lb 8th grader who cleaned 290. THAT SAID..teams with more early maturing kids at the lower levels are going to be be better because the early maturing kids are going to be better in HS. Not each and every one--just like each and every high poverty kid is not going to struggle academically or have behavioral issues. But a high poverty school is going to struggle academically compared to an affluent one. And a graduating classes with late maturing kids is going to struggle athletically compared to early maturing ones. |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 17, 2024 13:31:38 GMT -6
I like the what if's
We had an A and B team in 8th grade with this group and in 9th grade. They had 18 on the A and 22 on the B team.
At the end of this season there were 5 A kids still playing...and 13 B kids still playing. 4 others were hurt
A kids= QB is a dude 2 time all-state back to back school records in yards and TD passes.
WR fabulous season, he was a TE in 8/9th grade.
WR was the 4th WR and corner in 8/9 but has always been a solid returner
OL he was the 5th best his 8/9 grade season solid kid
DE he was a FB/LB in 8/9 grade- moved after he kept screwing up reads and assignments
B kids=LB/FB started both ways leading tackler grew 6 inches since 8/9
LB broke his leg in 9th grade and just out hustled other kids
DB in all reality should have run cross country- he has a scholarship to do that and track in college
OLB- wrestler who refused to cut weight
OLB/QB- smart and hard worker- not physical or athletic just made plays
LB x2- good kids got reps in games on specials
WR x4- never did anything outside of the season and were content being on the team- 3 catches on the season between them
RB played the final game at nose for 15 plays
Kicker- was a RB/LB but went to soccer as main sport.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Nov 18, 2024 12:07:19 GMT -6
Meanwhile, the runts in grade school and Jr High, if they can tough it out, usually end up being better athletes in HS after puberty hits. They have work ethic, they have a chip on their shoulder. yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. THIS!!!... Especially the BIRTHDAY... I promise if you look at most good programs or teams ... they have older kids as a general rule. I started my son late... He will turn 19 as a SR this January... We also had a really good player that is a SR and wont turn 17 in December... Im thinking to my self ... Dang if that kid was a SOPHOMORE he be a prospect lol... HOLD you kids back not just for sports but so many advantages |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 18, 2024 12:27:16 GMT -6
yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. THIS!!!... Especially the BIRTHDAY... I promise if you look at most good programs or teams ... they have older kids as a general rule. I started my son late... He will turn 19 as a SR this January... We also had a really good player that is a SR and wont turn 17 in December... Im thinking to my self ... Dang if that kid was a SOPHOMORE he be a prospect lol... HOLD you kids back not just for sports but so many advantages Our 2 year starting Sr Safety is 12 days away from being a Jr...... |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 18, 2024 19:30:13 GMT -6
yes in HS, but genetics and birthday matter. THIS!!!... Especially the BIRTHDAY... I promise if you look at most good programs or teams ... they have older kids as a general rule. I started my son late... He will turn 19 as a SR this January... We also had a really good player that is a SR and wont turn 17 in December... Im thinking to my self ... Dang if that kid was a SOPHOMORE he be a prospect lol... HOLD you kids back not just for sports but so many advantages Not to totally derail, but Ryan Williams (Bama WR) could be a junior in high school right now!! |
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Post by olliebaba14 on Nov 20, 2024 16:47:17 GMT -6
Too hard to tell until they are midway thru junior year what they’ll be
We had a “trophy boy” group of kids that mercy ruled everyone and went 33-4 in LL end their senior season at 6-4 first round exit
They were talented BUT mentally soft and poor leaders that lacked competitive fire. They expected every team to roll over and quit
QB was a lineman in LL grew a foot and got skinny. Was VERY good possible D1 athlete
RB was decent but had attitude problems
WRs were ok but not physical or fast enough. A B team kid quit football came back out as a soph and filled out to be 6”0 185 and became a dude and went for 1k yards
A few linemen didn’t grow and were reserve LBs
The other RB didn’t get faster and played Spur
This next group was horrid in LL but I feel is grittier despite not having the elite talent
On a side note it’s fascinating seeing the kids I coached in LL grow up and it has very little to do with how good you are in HS.
I have friends at another HS that have some bad daddyball going on in LL- they will probably get 5 freshman off that team and no one is over 5”6 and only 1 can contribute some as a FR. Going from 17 FR down to 9… that’s going to be brutal to overcome
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 20, 2024 19:25:05 GMT -6
Too hard to tell until they are midway thru junior year what they’ll be We had a “trophy boy” group of kids that mercy ruled everyone and went 33-4 in LL end their senior season at 6-4 first round exit They were talented BUT mentally soft and poor leaders that lacked competitive fire. They expected every team to roll over and quit QB was a lineman in LL grew a foot and got skinny. Was VERY good possible D1 athlete RB was decent but had attitude problems WRs were ok but not physical or fast enough. A B team kid quit football came back out as a soph and filled out to be 6”0 185 and became a dude and went for 1k yards A few linemen didn’t grow and were reserve LBs The other RB didn’t get faster and played Spur This next group was horrid in LL but I feel is grittier despite not having the elite talent On a side note it’s fascinating seeing the kids I coached in LL grow up and it has very little to do with how good you are in HS. I have friends at another HS that have some bad daddyball going on in LL- they will probably get 5 freshman off that team and no one is over 5”6 and only 1 can contribute some as a FR. Going from 17 FR down to 9… that’s going to be brutal to overcome in LL birthdate is the king |
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