3nout
Freshmen Member
SkinskillBoyz
Posts: 34
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Post by 3nout on Jul 21, 2006 12:50:05 GMT -6
I have the oppurtunity of a lifetime this year to return to my alma mater.
Sounds great but...the only problem is the HC.
Since I have been at the school.. about 6 months now. I have always tried to share ideas..volunteer....weightroom..passing leauge etc. I dont know if this guy is intimidated or what but I have twice thought about not returning.
Dont get me wrong I would love to be the HC of my old school but thats not my focus or why I am here. I have several conversations with the HC about helping him run "his"program and making sure I dont overstep or seem to undermind him. Ive had a coach try that with me so I know how that can cause drama for a program.
On the other hand there are things that need to be done that flat out havent. To be honest I havent seen or talk to him since the kids got out of school and the first day a practice is in two weeks!!! This is only his 2nd year coming off of a 1-9 season in one of the weakest districts in the state. I would imagine a showing like that you would take a more aggresive approach to fixing whats wrong and overall improvement. Have some pride proving your better than that.
Its funny beacuse I was warned by former players and parents of mine that played for both of us, that we would get under my skin. Im a positive person and always look for something good to come out but this is killing me!!
Im to the point that I want to speak to the AD about the situation but how can I do that without. 1)questioning the AD's decision 2) seem like im starting a mutiny
My concerns(all address to the HC on several occasions)
* Program goals/phylosophy
I have no clue what they are!
* Staff communication
No...No Staff meeting yet. Off/ Def..nothing
No one has seen him all summer! I dont even know who is on staff.
* Speed/Strength Conditioning
Bench, squat, deadlift make up the offseason workout!!No running,flexibilty, plyo, agility,core body!!!
* Staff needs
No coaches have keys.. I have to chase to a janitor if I need something
* Scheme/Scouting/Game prep
The coaches office is a ghost town! I dont even have a key to coaches office.(As a students of the game..this is what pisses my off the most). Did I mention that no one has a playbook?
* Recruiting
He doesnt have a clue!!!
These are real concerns that I have that should be addressed. If I need to resign my post to seem unbais, well its that serious.
Its like someone trying to jerk you little brother around right in front of you. I have been working out with these guys since Jan and coach them during summer league(no other coaches have came out )These are some great kids that I see a world of potential in. You can get a see that they are starting to look around and see that there HC isint around. Some are making comments about not wanting to play for him. My response is " keep showing up, work hard not matter who is HC or if you ever see him". We have some serious trust issues(Players beliving in Coaches). I just dont see how as a staff we expect to be succsessful at the rate we are going?
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3nout
Freshmen Member
SkinskillBoyz
Posts: 34
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Post by 3nout on Jul 21, 2006 13:11:24 GMT -6
Would you stay for the kids even though you disagree with the HC or do you think its better to remove myself from the situation?
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 21, 2006 13:15:55 GMT -6
GO -- obviously I don't know both sides to the story but it is obvious you have no respect for the current head coach. You need to leave - yes you will be screwing over the program leaving at this late date - but it sounds like the two of you can't work together and it will probably tear the team and staff apart if you stay.
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Post by wildcat on Jul 21, 2006 13:18:23 GMT -6
Coach -
I would stay. My guess is that if this guy is as ate up as you say, he won't be around for very long.
Watch what you say. Don't undermine the guy publicly. Chances are good that when this guy DOES get the axe, you will be in a good position to be the next HC.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 21, 2006 13:24:00 GMT -6
Whew, Wildcat - I couldn't agree less! And also couldn't agree less about your reason for staying! Guess thats the fun of this coaching board...
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2006 13:34:23 GMT -6
Be as professional as possible should you decide to stay. I would look at it this way- you may be a better, more dedicated coach than the HC, but he still your superior on paper and within the program's hieracrchy. Even if you're completely right, stepping on ties is going be looked down upon. To me, it sounds like the guy won't be around for very long as is especially if you guys have another rough season.
I agree with wildcat, keep off of the radar, do the best possible job you can and when you have to question something do it privately(out of ear shot of other coaches also) and professionally. If you maintain a good relationship with the rest of the staff, the kids and the community you'll be set.
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3nout
Freshmen Member
SkinskillBoyz
Posts: 34
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Post by 3nout on Jul 21, 2006 13:41:32 GMT -6
I wouldnt saying I dont have any respect, just his approach to football and how the kids are handled. Let be honest.. If your staff isnt on the same page..Your kids believe in your system.believe in you...have a good workout program...watch film... Your in trouble!!!!!
I know my work ethic and everything that goes on from the last game to the first day of practice.
Its more disrecpectful for him not to take the position.school..program more serious and expect coaches to spend time away from our families!!!
Imagine someone getting the HC job at Notre Dame or Maimi and coming in doing a half ass job. My school has ton of tradition and history that commands repect. I dont think this guy understand that or cares. These are thing that I constantly preach to the kids as a former player. I hold these guys at a higher standard I just expected the same from the HC.
I have turned down a TON of jobs becuase I wanted to stick it out here!!!!!!
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 21, 2006 13:42:39 GMT -6
Tough situation. Here is my free advice:
Coachcb said it best, "Be Professional." If you stay, he is the head coach. Support him any way you can. Put on a united front and don't be a locker room lawyer. You can disagree behind closed doors but with the kids, the parents, the AD, and the community you need to be a member of the team. Make suggestions if you feel they are warrented - maybe the guy is insecure and needs your help! There will probably be a time when you are a head coach - you would want your staff to do the same for you.
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Post by tog on Jul 21, 2006 14:28:27 GMT -6
have you sat down with him and explained your concerns?
if he can't take your criticism, he shouldn't be the hc, and then you should either
1. go
2. stay and keep your mouth shut and take over when he does get canned
if he can handle the talk, then good, maybe he can do things right (or at least what you think is right)
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Post by wildcat on Jul 21, 2006 15:12:53 GMT -6
Whew, Wildcat - I couldn't agree less! And also couldn't agree less about your reason for staying! Guess thats the fun of this coaching board... Why? 3nout said that this was a dream opportunity - a chance to go and coach at the school where it all started for him... What is wrong with sticking it out? According to him, 3nout has tried to help this guy (the current HC) out by suggesting things that would possibly make the program more succesful. To this point, the guy has been pretty resistant to these new ideas. If I had the opportunity to go back and coach at my alma mater, I would JUMP at the chance, even if that meant working under less than ideal circumstances. I'm not saying to sandbag the head coach and go behind his back and attempt a hostile takeover. What I am suggesting is that, if this is a "dream job", 3nout might have to accept the current situation and make the best of it. Chances are good that if he does do that, works hard, and is as professional as possible, in the future, if the current head coach resigns or gets fired, 3nout should be in a good position to apply for the job and run it the way he thinks is right. Not sure why that is a bad thing? |
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Post by khalfie on Jul 21, 2006 16:01:19 GMT -6
2 Things...
1. I think 3nout wants the head coaching gig.
2. Because of this... I don't think 3nout is being genuine in his assesment of the situation...
With all that being said, if 3nout truly wanted the best for the TEAM... he would give the TEAM his best...
Sure, he may not get paid appropriately... similar to a lineman, he may not get any credit at all... more so, the HC may take all the credit for the turn around of the program...
However, if 3nout was truly about the kids... he would have created a playbook based on what was done last year.
He would have arranged for the summer camping, weightlifting, and conditioning, in the stay of the HC, until said HC was located.
He would model, the professionalism, respect, and dedication necessary for success.
I've been a coach at bad small schools for a couple of years... and in all honesty, its not about WHO does the work... its about the WORK being done!
3nout has eloquently detailed the necessary work... but wants another man to do it... Sure, that other man should be doing it... but he's not... so what do you do?
You get the job done... and when the HC shows up, you brief him on what was done, what needs to be done, and then ASK how WE will do it...
None of the behind the back talking... going to the AD... getting the players and parents all riled up!
Be PROFESSIONAL and everyone will see whom the real leader of the team is... and you will be rewarded appropriately... any other action... and you are being as disingenious as you accuse the absentee coach of being.
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Post by wildcat on Jul 21, 2006 16:20:26 GMT -6
2 Things... 1. I think 3nout wants the head coaching gig. Wow! What incredible insight you have  ...The fact that he said, "Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the HC of my old school" in his post makes it pretty obvious! With that being said, who cares? Are you suggesting that assistant coaches should not aspire to be a head coach? 2. Because of this... I don't think 3nout is being genuine in his assesment of the situation... Based on what? Oh, yeah, your tremendous insightfulness... With all that being said, if 3nout truly wanted the best for the TEAM... he would give the TEAM his best... Sure, he may not get paid appropriately... similar to a lineman, he may not get any credit at all... more so, the HC may take all the credit for the turn around of the program... However, if 3nout was truly about the kids... he would have created a playbook based on what was done last year. He would have arranged for the summer camping, weightlifting, and conditioning, in the stay of the HC, until said HC was located. He would model, the professionalism, respect, and dedication necessary for success. How has he not done this? He clearly said in his post that he has addressed these issues with the HC. He clearly said that he has been working with the players since January, even though no other coaches have been. He has told the kids to keep working hard no matter what coaches are there...seems to me that he IS putting in the lion's share of the work. Please I've been a coach at bad small schools for a couple of years... and in all honesty, its not about WHO does the work... its about the WORK being done! 3nout has eloquently detailed the necessary work... but wants another man to do it... Sure, that other man should be doing it... but he's not... so what do you do? Apparently you missed the part of his post where he said that he has been working with the kids since January and has been the only coach to show up during summer league. How is that "wanting another man to do it"? Sounds to me like he IS doing it... You get the job done... and when the HC shows up, you brief him on what was done, what needs to be done, and then ASK how WE will do it... IMO, this guy HAS been getting the job done. Maybe not to YOUR lofty standards , but he has done far more than any of the other coaches associated with the program. Be PROFESSIONAL and everyone will see whom the real leader of the team is... and you will be rewarded appropriately... any other action... and you are being as disingenious as you accuse the absentee coach of being. My guess is that players already know who the real leader of the program is. |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2006 16:34:37 GMT -6
On one final note- stay away from the AD and the parents with this situation- you will lose the respect of everyone on the staff no matter how much time and effort you put it or how right you are. In my opinion, the administration only has a place in the coaches office when something very serious has happened and all other avenues of resolve have been exhausted.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 21, 2006 18:32:47 GMT -6
Hey Wild kitten...
1. ""Dont get me wrong I would love to be the HC of my old school but THAT'S NOT MY FOCUS OR WHY I AM HERE. I have several conversations with the HC about helping him run "his"program and making sure I dont overstep or seem to undermind him. Ive had a coach try that with me so I know how that can cause drama for a program.""
THAT'S NOT MY FOCUS OR WHY I AM HERE? Bull Crap... DISINGENUOUS... its exactly why he's here! Call it for what it is... that's all I'm saying... "be truthful to thy self... if no one else!" Anytime someone starts a statement with a disclaimer... that's exactly why they are making the statement... you can act all nieve if you like WildK... but the assessment that came after that statement, was entirely tainted, being that there is the OBVIOUS, want... for the position!
And the ridiculous statement about Asst.'s and aspiring... I won't even acknowleged that nonesense with a respone... however, HOW an Asst. aspires for a HC gig... is of utmost importance!
2. ""On the other hand there are things that need to be done that flat out havent. ""
What!? Did you just not read this part? Forget about talking to the coach about getting it done... get it done, and have the coach talk to you about, "why you are so involved with the program in the off-season!"
3. ""Apparently you missed the part of his post where he said that he has been working with the kids since January and has been the only coach to show up during summer league. How is that "wanting another man to do it"? Sounds to me like he IS doing it...""
Apparently I did... because I read a long laundry list of things not done... that according to the post... still aren't done...
Maybe you missed the part of his post where he said that the...
* Program goals/phylosophy
I have no clue what they are!
* Staff communication
No...No Staff meeting yet. Off/ Def..nothing
No one has seen him all summer! I dont even know who is on staff.
* Speed/Strength Conditioning
Bench, squat, deadlift make up the offseason workout!!No running,flexibilty, plyo, agility,core body!!!
* Staff needs
No coaches have keys.. I have to chase to a janitor if I need something
* Scheme/Scouting/Game prep
The coaches office is a ghost town! I dont even have a key to coaches office.(As a students of the game..this is what pisses my off the most). Did I mention that no one has a playbook?
* Recruiting
He doesnt have a clue!!!
These are real concerns that I have that should be addressed. If I need to resign my post to seem unbais, well its that serious.re is no...
4. ""IMO, this guy HAS been getting the job done. Maybe not to YOUR lofty standards , but he has done far more than any of the other coaches associated with the program.""
Right! He's doing better than the absentee coach... so that makes it all right! Wrong! 3nout obviously knows the business, but it sounds to me... due to my tremendous insightfulness... that he doesn't want to give the team his all, because he's not the HC... and until he gets that title, he won't generate a philosophy with the kids he's spending the summer with... he won't create the playbook, of the plays he's been running the with kids he spent the summer with... he won't call up the other coaches and get them involved with the kids he's been spending the summer with...
He's going to complain about it not getting done, get the bad coach fired, and then come in and save the day...
Which is cool... I'm all for bad coaches getting outed... but CALL IT WHAT IT IS! Don't blow smoke about the ethical dilema, when its an obvious case of someone ruining something you hold sacred!
5. ""My guess is that players already know who the real leader of the program is.""
My thought is... 3nout is stealling the HC's girlfriend, while pretending to be the HC's best friend. Guys have done it for years... tell the girl how his best friend isn't treating her right... how he's not spending enough time with her... like he is... talking about all the old boyfriends faults so that the girl will dump him, and hopefully go out with him...
Its dirty when its done with girlfriends and its dirty when its done with Football programs...
I don't care how bad of a boyfriend or HC the guy may be... either man up and get him out... or be a true best friend / asst. coach... and do the things you know are necessary for the program to become successful!
I'm shocked Wildcat... to see you supporting such cowardly actions!
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Post by wildcat on Jul 21, 2006 19:13:47 GMT -6
Well, you should know all about cowardly actions, there, chief!
What is the longest you have ever been with 1 program? What is your level of committment like? You're even worse than this guy because you're a mercenary. At least this guy is entertaining the option of staying and trying to get the program moving in the right direction. You, OTOH, would have pulled up stakes a long time ago and rode off into the sunset.
In all of the crappy programs you have been associated with, did YOU take care of all of the business that needed to be taken care of? Or was it a little overwhelming because you were the ONLY guy doing it? I seem to remember the difficulties you had in your last head coaching gig...IIRC, you drove, what, 1 hour to get to practice, ran the weightroom and didn't get paid for it, had to have short practices at weird times because of busing, etc, etc.
Did you take care of everything that needed taking care of? Of course you didn't because you couldn't, seeing as you were the only guy doing anything for those kids!
And, it got too much for you...that's why you ain't there anymore, right?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, bucko.
The view must be mighty fine from that high horse you are sitting on!
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 21, 2006 19:15:48 GMT -6
I'm with tog, coachcb and fbdoc;
Talk to the HC. Going to the AD suggests mutiny even if that is not the intent. There are simply some HC who do not do the little things...some due to apathy and some due to ignorance. If it is apathy- well, then you know this (staff) is not a good fit for you. if it is ignorance- discussing this will make the HC a better coach, you will have improved your skills of diplomacy, and the program will be better for it.
I have always tried to share ideas.. volunteer.... weightroom.. passing leauge etc. I
This is good... it may help too to ask him about your specific job description- kind of a "what do you want/need from me?"... and encourage him to give you responsibility.
Not knowing the particulars of the situation... I'm just throwing around ideas...
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2006 19:28:55 GMT -6
I look at it this way, if 3nout wasn't taking care of things, the people that suffer most is the kids. All discussion of mutiny and disloyalty aside, 3nout is trying to help the kids to be successful. Thats what coaching comes down to in the first place- putting kids in a position to be successful, not jockeying for positions and politicing.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 21, 2006 19:38:50 GMT -6
I look at it this way, if 3nout wasn't taking care of things, the people that suffer most is the kids. All discussion of mutiny and disloyalty aside, 3nout is trying to help the kids to be successful. Thats what coaching comes down to in the first place- putting kids in a position to be successful, not jockeying for positions and politicing. 3nout should be complimented for keeping things going. But you should sit down and talk to the HC over a beverage and tell him how you feel. Communication. I agree with the senator that going to the AD suggests mutiny. If you are going to stay then you must in your heart be 100% loyal to the program and current HC. That does not mean you have to drink his cool-aid but outside the coaches office you must agree with him. Take it from a guy who had been messed with before as a HC. You're not the only assistant with a HC who does not do much over the summer. Let's keep it professional and on subject please. |
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 21, 2006 19:57:49 GMT -6
Heres my two cents because I think I a) could have been a better assistant to guys I have worked under and b) they could have done a heckuva lot better job at providing some direction and leadership
the answer to the question...since you are on a forum asking "should I go?"...the answer is yes. that simple. I think if you cant follow because youre not being led, you go...you just put it in writing, and say "its not a happy marriage" essentially...why be miserable? Wildcat suggested that this HC might be gone...or perhaps its just a typical lousy program where the expectations are so low that the guy might be there forever?...heres what I have learned about coaching as it applies to me ...I cant work for guys I dont respect. Whats best for the kids is that someone else who can work for a person like that be there instead. Im not the one. Im passionate about football and I can only work for guys who are also all about the kids and the game...these guys that show up in July/aug and hope to compete are just rediculous. Id go. volunteer somewhere or spend some time with your family. I took a year off after being in a very similar situation and i learned more about the game than i could have dreamed by just watching more film than ever. I also got to take my family to whatever game i wanted to see on a friday night...that was a nice treat. In the end, every one can just move on. anyhow, you asked, so i think its pretty clear. good luck and dont feel bad for aspiring to be the HC, just go about it the right way... I think most coaches worth their salt want to at least try it on for size.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 21, 2006 21:51:02 GMT -6
Hill Larry Us!
Oh... so now we're going to get personal?
My situation was different... in addition to having to drive 100 miles per day rain, sleet, or snow, at all hours of the night... in addition to being apart of a co-op of two schools more than 50 miles apart... in addition to off- season programming coordinating the 150 mile separation... I also had a wife that recently opened a private practice law firm, 3 children, and being that I'm not a teacher, but an entrepreneur, I still had another 60 hour gig to keep the food on the table...
But I'm not complaining, just putting ALL the facts on the table... and yes, I LEFT, after 1 year... but I was doing what was best for the kids.
And I have two been at a program for more than 1 year... I'm in year two at my current gig... and I spent two years at two other locations... though... they weren't in a row...
So there!
And yet, none of this has any bearing on doing the RIGHT THING... and comparing coach favorably to other bad coaches, does not make it ok...
Coach has to either man up... or move on... that's all I'm sayin'
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Post by wildcat on Jul 21, 2006 22:33:16 GMT -6
Coach has to either man up... or move on... that's all I'm sayin' Well said, then. Sage words, considering you are the resident expert on moving on. |
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Post by saintrad on Jul 21, 2006 23:53:59 GMT -6
I guess the main question I have for you 3nout is what is the draw to going back to your alma mater? Once you have that the decision should be easy.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 22, 2006 8:12:31 GMT -6
wow - kinda got personal here -- I think I may have misunderstood the original post - 3nout - are you currently employed at your alma mater or do you have a chance to move to your alma mater now? I take it you did not coach last fall at the school you are at now? This will be be my last post on the subject - if you can't work with the guy because of his shortcomings you need to get out - if you can live with his shortcomings you need to stay and be the best assistant coach you can be -- and part of being the best assistant coach is being loyal...
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Post by optionguy on Jul 23, 2006 13:44:50 GMT -6
wow - kinda got personal here -- I think I may have misunderstood the original post - 3nout - are you currently employed at your alma mater or do you have a chance to move to your alma mater now? I take it you did not coach last fall at the school you are at now? This will be be my last post on the subject - if you can't work with the guy because of his shortcomings you need to get out - if you can live with his shortcomings you need to stay and be the best assistant coach you can be -- and part of being the best assistant coach is being loyal... |
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3nout
Freshmen Member
SkinskillBoyz
Posts: 34
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Post by 3nout on Jul 23, 2006 21:55:53 GMT -6
Im not after his job. I couldve just waited and let him dig his own hole...but who would suffer then while waiting for his contract to run out or get canned? Rather than wish bad on him and the school I decided to see if I could help. Like I stated before I turned down some good HC and DC jobs to coach here this year.
For the money:)LOL! Only places I know of that make enough for money to be an issue is in Texas. If Im wrong..please fill me in:)
I got sick of going to games or reading in the paper they got there heads kicked in again. So I decided that I would offer what I can bring to the table, just plug me in where you think I can help out..All of the things Im doing now are because they need to be done!!
He has never said " Coach I need you to do this or Coach i dont need you to do that" He hasnt said anything..he never has an answer for me. To be honest he acts like its not really a big deal.
It gets to me because I have more respect for the position than that and know how much of a responsibility comes with it.
Ive been assistant before I got my first HC job!!! Tell me what you want to accomplish..if you have any prefrences/how you want things done..how much can I improv..when we need it done. With that little bit of info we can take on the world!
If you see the trash needs to be taken out what you going to do? Wait for someone else to take it out...step over it and keep going?Or Get your hands dirty and get the trash up?
Accept mediocrecy? Im sure as a coach your not suggesting that is ever ok.
Any HC worth his own weight would know that you atleast owe it to your coaches and staff to give them give them ehat they need to succeed..be prepared...have a solid plan..share that plan...show some intrest and enthusiasm about getting better. As a HC " NO ONE" should be more fired up then you!!
I will take the good advice and stay away from the AD. Thats on him to evaluate.
Thanks for everyone honesty and advice. I value the opinion of my colleagues.
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...The fact that he said, "Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the HC of my old school" in his post makes it pretty obvious!
