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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 7, 2024 17:28:32 GMT -6
Picking the longest I could construct for this system:
Flip, guards over, and ends over are formation calls:
Flip: Mirror the formation left-right. Everyone flips. The opposite of "flip" is no tag.
Guards over: The pulling guard (there's only one, keeps 2-point stance) plays inside the other guard on the same side. No tag means the line's balanced. No "tackles over" tag.
Ends over: The tight and split ends trade. I just thought "over" could be said a little faster than "trade" in a signal call even though it's an extra syllable.
Rocket is a motion call. It sends the tailback into rocket motion to the strong side. There'll be "fly" and "blimp" calls for the wingback. Maybe "glider" for the quarterback. The "r" and "l" in the words mean "right" and "left" respectively, but just the opposite if "flip" is on. We expect to flip only a minority of the time.
Direct tells the center to snap between the quarterback's legs.
20 series mostly tells the quarterback, fullback, and tailback what to do. It's an extension of the wing T 20 series. However, with "direct" the quarterback isn't going to be taking his usual steps, though the fullback does, and "rocket" is already telling the tailback what to do.
1 is where the play is going -- the point of attack. The hole numbers flip with the players left/right.
Trap tells the pulling guard what to do. In this case it's "trap the opponent past the 1 hole", which really means the guard is the outside blocker on a sweep. We'll call any pull-and-out block a "trap". If the POA is from 2 thru 8, it's telling the other linemen to block down or away from the play direction.
Pass tells ineligible receivers not to go downfield. This tag will be the way of calling play-action passes, but there'll also be a "pass" series that'll mostly be about the routes.
One is the snap count, calling out that actual word. The cadence will be, "Ready, set, go, one, two, three...." "Go" starts the motion. We can snap on anything but "ready"; if we snap on "set", the whole line will be in 2-point, otherwise the line except the pulling guard will be 3-point. If we snap on "go" of course there's no motion.
All this may be preceded by a personnel tag, though that'll be called first and in advance of the actual play call, so nobody will have to keep it in mind once the right players are on the field.
The advantage of the long play call is that the players don't have to memorize much once the play starts. They'll have blocking rules, and they should line up knowing what to do without having to remember a list of plays. The disadvantage is that whoever gets the signal and relays in the play in the huddle is going to have to remember this long list of words during that interval. Keep in mind that most play calls will be shorter, like "24 on go".
I've thought about adding an overall description at the end of the call, but I don't want to have a redundant name like that for every play.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 7, 2024 20:28:18 GMT -6
Yes
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 8, 2024 8:40:10 GMT -6
Can you think of a shorter way to do it? How about sending in just the formation tags (if any), and then after they line up, sending in the motion, play, and snap count? I don't care much how long the defense has to look at the formation. Or sending in one messenger with the formation tags (if any) and another to call the motion, play, and snap count? The first messenger calls out the formation first ("normal" if no tags), then the other messenger gives the rest? Or is the problem still with having other positions remember where to line up and then what to do and when? |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 8, 2024 10:41:09 GMT -6
First, once it gets that long, just tag the whole thing one word. Call it Banana. Call it Chevy. Call it Scooby Doo. Call it whatever. My rule is once the play call gets over about three words, then it gets its own word.
Second, if you want to be able to adjust all of those things individually, that is just too much to practice. Especially for 10 year olds.
Third, just have one cadence. Always go on one or whatever. But have a play that is a freeze (no snap). So that will eliminate some words and TONS of headaches and wasted practice time.
Fourth, they are 10. Have one type of snap.
Fifth, limit formations. Maybe 3 formations. And then if you want a special new one for a special game, ok.
Now the play call is rocket 21 trap pass. Maybe with a formation tag. That still is a touch long in my book for 10 year olds, but also fine.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 8, 2024 13:06:34 GMT -6
First, once it gets that long, just tag the whole thing one word. Call it Banana. Call it Chevy. Call it Scooby Doo. Call it whatever. My rule is once the play call gets over about three words, then it gets its own word. But then the players have to memorize and decode the whole thing. They have to know Banana means a lot of things that aren't easily relatable to the word "banana". My idea is that by making the play call modular, they don't have to do all that memorizing. Each word means something simple and following simple rules. You're right, I would not expect to practice every combination, so some "plays" would be unadjusted. However, I'd expect that once they get certain rules down, then it won't matter what the "whole play" is, they'll execute the same. Very little changes with each tag. The only tag that requires its own practice is "flip" because everything is mirror image. Doesn't mix well with man-in-motion. If the back has to be just there for the play to work, it has to be timed to the snap. One thing I've thought about, is to have the signal caller watch and call for the snap at just the right moment -- but that sacrifices both the element of surprise against the other team and the value of rhythm for our own team. The man-in-motion would be a complete decoy in many cases, added to a play just to see if it gets the linebackers leaning the wrong way. So we could add "rocket...on two", say, to many plays it has nothing to do with -- in fact, losing a lead blocker on belly -- as long as the tag is available. But that works only if rocket sweep gets established as a threat. The teams I've coached with here in Newton have never used rocket, and I don't know why. Maybe they've been afraid to lead a pitch to a man in motion, maybe they think it works only if you have a real speedster halfback. Meanwhile they've used jet, never with much success, telegraphing it by running it only from double wings and running very little else from double wing -- and never seriously teaching reach blocking steps to go with it. I've already done it with 9Us, no problem. The snapper's head is up, and he either hands it to the QB (sidesaddle T) or throws it between his legs just one way regardless of which of the deep backs catches it. 3 counting "flipped" ones separately? I've coached with 10Us where we had more formations than that -- 5 IIRC, and this was considered fairly standard for that age playing wing T in our club. By the time they were 12Us we had more formations, and more than that as 14Us. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 8, 2024 13:43:19 GMT -6
First, once it gets that long, just tag the whole thing one word. Call it Banana. Call it Chevy. Call it Scooby Doo. Call it whatever. My rule is once the play call gets over about three words, then it gets its own word. But then the players have to memorize and decode the whole thing. They have to know Banana means a lot of things that aren't easily relatable to the word "banana". My idea is that by making the play call modular, they don't have to do all that memorizing. Each word means something simple and following simple rules. You're right, I would not expect to practice every combination, so some "plays" would be unadjusted. However, I'd expect that once they get certain rules down, then it won't matter what the "whole play" is, they'll execute the same. Very little changes with each tag. The only tag that requires its own practice is "flip" because everything is mirror image. Doesn't mix well with man-in-motion. If the back has to be just there for the play to work, it has to be timed to the snap. One thing I've thought about, is to have the signal caller watch and call for the snap at just the right moment -- but that sacrifices both the element of surprise against the other team and the value of rhythm for our own team. The man-in-motion would be a complete decoy in many cases, added to a play just to see if it gets the linebackers leaning the wrong way. So we could add "rocket...on two", say, to many plays it has nothing to do with -- in fact, losing a lead blocker on belly -- as long as the tag is available. But that works only if rocket sweep gets established as a threat. The teams I've coached with here in Newton have never used rocket, and I don't know why. Maybe they've been afraid to lead a pitch to a man in motion, maybe they think it works only if you have a real speedster halfback. Meanwhile they've used jet, never with much success, telegraphing it by running it only from double wings and running very little else from double wing -- and never seriously teaching reach blocking steps to go with it. I've already done it with 9Us, no problem. The snapper's head is up, and he either hands it to the QB (sidesaddle T) or throws it between his legs just one way regardless of which of the deep backs catches it. 3 counting "flipped" ones separately? I've coached with 10Us where we had more formations than that -- 5 IIRC, and this was considered fairly standard for that age playing wing T in our club. By the time they were 12Us we had more formations, and more than that as 14Us. All of what you said can certainly work. No doubt. But is it? If it is, truck on. If not, think about major simplification. The only thing I will disagree on is the modular concept. Actually not disagree, just give you a different perspective. One that another coach had to convince me on and then it was an aha moment for me. While modular is awesome, I have found that at SOME point, the modular just gets too big and their brains will freeze or stop. 1+4 = 5 is easy. So is 2+6=8 and so is 3+9=12 and so is 4+2 = 6 and so is 18+7=25. But 1+4 and 2+6 and 3+9 and 4+2 and 18+7 all at once gets tough when you just got hit and run back and you are 10 and the qb calls all of those out and you have to process them and line up and motion and remember the snap count and whether you are under center or not and what you are supposed to do and then the defense moves and you get hit again. And you only have 5-10 seconds to process all that. Sometimes just saying run "Banana" works better. The kid just goes, "oh, I know what to do on Banana." You will be surprised how well that works. It is even better when you can be modular and then come up with one word on wordy plays that match or have a word association. And when they don't, just call it Banana. |
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Post by powercounterandjet on Feb 9, 2024 8:06:09 GMT -6
I think it's a lot but I see where you're coming from. I've not coached that level of ball, I've only been as low-age as MS, but one thing I keep in mind even at the HS level is all these words are just words to the kids. "Trap" to them is what they put down in Fortnite right now. They don't know what Trap is in football until you teach them. If you tell the kids this whole play is called Skittles, they don't have to know everything about Skittles like you do as a coach. They have to remember "Ok on Skittles I line up on the other side and pull". Then you base the tags off of those. "Skittles Pass". ok same as skittles but now it's a pass. The tags should build on the playcall, not be the playcall.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 9, 2024 16:17:42 GMT -6
But then the players have to memorize and decode the whole thing. They have to know Banana means a lot of things that aren't easily relatable to the word "banana". My idea is that by making the play call modular, they don't have to do all that memorizing. Each word means something simple and following simple rules. You're right, I would not expect to practice every combination, so some "plays" would be unadjusted. However, I'd expect that once they get certain rules down, then it won't matter what the "whole play" is, they'll execute the same. Very little changes with each tag. The only tag that requires its own practice is "flip" because everything is mirror image. Doesn't mix well with man-in-motion. If the back has to be just there for the play to work, it has to be timed to the snap. One thing I've thought about, is to have the signal caller watch and call for the snap at just the right moment -- but that sacrifices both the element of surprise against the other team and the value of rhythm for our own team. The man-in-motion would be a complete decoy in many cases, added to a play just to see if it gets the linebackers leaning the wrong way. So we could add "rocket...on two", say, to many plays it has nothing to do with -- in fact, losing a lead blocker on belly -- as long as the tag is available. But that works only if rocket sweep gets established as a threat. The teams I've coached with here in Newton have never used rocket, and I don't know why. Maybe they've been afraid to lead a pitch to a man in motion, maybe they think it works only if you have a real speedster halfback. Meanwhile they've used jet, never with much success, telegraphing it by running it only from double wings and running very little else from double wing -- and never seriously teaching reach blocking steps to go with it. I've already done it with 9Us, no problem. The snapper's head is up, and he either hands it to the QB (sidesaddle T) or throws it between his legs just one way regardless of which of the deep backs catches it. 3 counting "flipped" ones separately? I've coached with 10Us where we had more formations than that -- 5 IIRC, and this was considered fairly standard for that age playing wing T in our club. By the time they were 12Us we had more formations, and more than that as 14Us. All of what you said can certainly work. No doubt. But is it? If it is, truck on. If not, think about major simplification. Since I haven't tried it, I'm trying to predict whether it will. I'm sure that's true, but I can't predict what point one way surpasses another. What I'm counting on is that most of the players won't have to listen to much of the full call. They all have to know the snap count. All except the center have to listen for "flip" in the formation. Only the puller (I expect one pull-capable player on the field at a time) has to listen for "guards over", and only the ends have to listen for "ends over". Only the tailback has to listen for "rocket", and only the wingback has to listen for "fly" or "blimp". Some of the line has to listen for "trap", which in this code won't always mean what you'd consider a trap play, but the same general action. The line has to listen for "pass". The center, fullback, and tailback have to listen for "direct". Most of the players have to listen to both digits of the play number. Most of these words won't be there most of the time. 2 digits and a snap count will always be there, and the rest are tags. But I'm concerned the number of words on some plays will still be too much for some to listen to, and particularly for whoever's relaying the play in. When I played rugby by the time I took 10 running steps all the blood would drain from my brain and I was a deaf amnesic zombi. I'm even thinking of having the field captain select the plays for the reason that then nobody has to convey the call from a coach. The only advantage I'd have calling it from the sideline would be a printed table telling me we couldn't use this motion with that count on that play. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 9, 2024 16:30:28 GMT -6
All of what you said can certainly work. No doubt. But is it? If it is, truck on. If not, think about major simplification. Since I haven't tried it, I'm trying to predict whether it will. I'm sure that's true, but I can't predict what point one way surpasses another. What I'm counting on is that most of the players won't have to listen to much of the full call. They all have to know the snap count. All except the center have to listen for "flip" in the formation. Only the puller (I expect one pull-capable player on the field at a time) has to listen for "guards over", and only the ends have to listen for "ends over". Only the tailback has to listen for "rocket", and only the wingback has to listen for "fly" or "blimp". Some of the line has to listen for "trap", which in this code won't always mean what you'd consider a trap play, but the same general action. The line has to listen for "pass". The center, fullback, and tailback have to listen for "direct". Most of the players have to listen to both digits of the play number. Most of these words won't be there most of the time. 2 digits and a snap count will always be there, and the rest are tags. But I'm concerned the number of words on some plays will still be too much for some to listen to, and particularly for whoever's relaying the play in. When I played rugby by the time I took 10 running steps all the blood would drain from my brain and I was a deaf amnesic zombi. I'm even thinking of having the field captain select the plays for the reason that then nobody has to convey the call from a coach. The only advantage I'd have calling it from the sideline would be a printed table telling me we couldn't use this motion with that count on that play. Play calls don't work like that. I understand what you are saying, but that 10 year old guard who is chewing on his mouthpiece, trying to pull up his pants, while hearing his dad yell from the stands "block someone", can't just magically hear some words and not the other. Some words might mean things to him and some words he might can ignore, but he HAS to LISTEN to it all. I am going to help you here since you asked for it and just said you haven't done it before, three words is the limit for 10 year olds. You go over three words it has to go back to one. Three words is the limit for ALL 11 players to hear it, understand it, and execute it during an entire series of downs in a game situation. Of course that doesn't mean by game 5 after your players have shown they can handle that, that you can't add another word to a play or two. I would be willing to bet that most coaches here would agree that play call is too long for high school kids that play both ways. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 9, 2024 16:32:29 GMT -6
I think it's a lot but I see where you're coming from. I've not coached that level of ball, I've only been as low-age as MS, but one thing I keep in mind even at the HS level is all these words are just words to the kids. "Trap" to them is what they put down in Fortnite right now. They don't know what Trap is in football until you teach them. If you tell the kids this whole play is called Skittles, they don't have to know everything about Skittles like you do as a coach. They have to remember "Ok on Skittles I line up on the other side and pull". Then you base the tags off of those. "Skittles Pass". ok same as skittles but now it's a pass. The tags should build on the playcall, not be the playcall. Well of course learning the calls is secondary to learning the techniques. And I'm already simplifying things by using "trap" to mean any pulling action (and having only one puller in the formation -- because in my experience at this age, it's about all you can do to have a single player good enough to play the O line and quick enough to beat the runner to the hole). So a cross-block is a trap, and a "trap" to the 1 or 9 hole means pull and protect the outside. And your system would be easier for the kids to remember if they had only a very small number of plays. But as soon as we have plays enough to hit several holes with different actions, they're going to have trouble remembering whatever they're supposed to do based on the play name. I had trouble myself last season remembering what route patterns went with what names -- and was glad that for my role in coaching, I didn't have to! (Although occasionally we did have confusion between the coaches on some assignments.) |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 9, 2024 16:35:09 GMT -6
I think it's a lot but I see where you're coming from. I've not coached that level of ball, I've only been as low-age as MS, but one thing I keep in mind even at the HS level is all these words are just words to the kids. "Trap" to them is what they put down in Fortnite right now. They don't know what Trap is in football until you teach them. If you tell the kids this whole play is called Skittles, they don't have to know everything about Skittles like you do as a coach. They have to remember "Ok on Skittles I line up on the other side and pull". Then you base the tags off of those. "Skittles Pass". ok same as skittles but now it's a pass. The tags should build on the playcall, not be the playcall. Well of course learning the calls is secondary to learning the techniques. And I'm already simplifying things by using "trap" to mean any pulling action (and having only one puller in the formation -- because in my experience at this age, it's about all you can do to have a single player good enough to play the O line and quick enough to beat the runner to the hole). So a cross-block is a trap, and a "trap" to the 1 or 9 hole means pull and protect the outside. And your system would be easier for the kids to remember if they had only a very small number of plays. But as soon as we have plays enough to hit several holes with different actions, they're going to have trouble remembering whatever they're supposed to do based on the play name. I had trouble myself last season remembering what route patterns went with what names -- and was glad that for my role in coaching, I didn't have to! (Although occasionally we did have confusion between the coaches on some assignments.) Several holes with several different actions. You don't get that on 1/2 the teams on the NFL level. How did y'all do last year? |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 9, 2024 16:57:39 GMT -6
Play calls don't work like that. I understand what you are saying, but that 10 year old guard who is chewing on his mouthpiece, trying to pull up his pants, while hearing his dad yell from the stands "block someone", can't just magically hear some words and not the other. Some words might mean things to him and some words he might can ignore, but he HAS to LISTEN to it all. I am going to help you here since you asked for it and just said you haven't done it before, three words is the limit for 10 year olds. You go over three words it has to go back to one. Three words is the limit for ALL 11 players to hear it, understand it, and execute it during an entire series of downs in a game situation. Of course that doesn't mean by game 5 after your players have shown they can handle that, that you can't add another word to a play or two. I would be willing to bet that most coaches here would agree that play call is too long for high school kids that play both ways. I get what you're saying: That even if the tags are kept in the proper order, it's too hard for a player to note the absence of a tag, and therefore that he doesn't have to listen for it but can mentally move on to the next one. The temptation would be to fill in by putting in a "negative" tag for every possible one, but then all the play calls would be as long as the above "longest possible" one. So I have to figure out what can be pruned. All the formation tags could be pruned from the call if the formation's sent in first, but then either there has to be a no-huddle signaling system for the play call -- which I think would either require wristbands for every position -- or some way to line up in the huddle pre-positioned. In the sidesaddle T with 9Us, we had only one formation (until the HC decided mistakenly to also put in I formation), and that would still be my preference over formationing. But in this club I want to meet their wing T system at least halfway. I do know there've been a couple other teams in this club since I've been coaching here who put in some single wing plays -- I'd just like to do it without "showing" it pre-snap. Another way to shorten some calls would be to "marry" the motions to certain play series, thereby losing the flexibility to add some pre-snap decoy action to other series. Also, I should say that many of my projected plays would go out the window on finding out, for instance, that we didn't have backs with certain combinations of talents. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 9, 2024 17:15:33 GMT -6
Well of course learning the calls is secondary to learning the techniques. And I'm already simplifying things by using "trap" to mean any pulling action (and having only one puller in the formation -- because in my experience at this age, it's about all you can do to have a single player good enough to play the O line and quick enough to beat the runner to the hole). So a cross-block is a trap, and a "trap" to the 1 or 9 hole means pull and protect the outside. And your system would be easier for the kids to remember if they had only a very small number of plays. But as soon as we have plays enough to hit several holes with different actions, they're going to have trouble remembering whatever they're supposed to do based on the play name. I had trouble myself last season remembering what route patterns went with what names -- and was glad that for my role in coaching, I didn't have to! (Although occasionally we did have confusion between the coaches on some assignments.) Several holes with several different actions. You don't get that on 1/2 the teams on the NFL level. How did y'all do last year? Last year I was an AC on a 13U (or 14U) team of about half rookies that went 0-fer, and none of this was in effect. We didn't even teach different blocking techniques, although we had in other years, because our HC -- a fine guy, but one I'd like to get out from under with younger players -- wanted to be conservative. Our defense was a little below average but not awful. We were getting opposing linebackers going the wrong way, but couldn't get past the line, and our pass completion percentage didn't justify the amount of shotgun we used. So what I'm looking at is, what do I really want to do? What do I think I can do with a fresh set of players? I would've been a HC back in the Bronx in 2016 but turned it down because I had to relocate. As to several holes with different actions, I don't consider that at all unreasonable. I think we should be able to have our fullback hit the 4 or 6 hole with either straight dive or trap action. Some kiddie defenses make the trap worthwhile, others don't. Same with belly at 7 blocked either straight (base) or cross (X). And I don't think it unreasonable to have a run with a lead block or a choice of a couple faking actions behind it. And I could think of lots of others. But I have other reasons for wanting to be HC. I have different ideas about practice organization and emphasis. There are certain skills that are fun but that a lot of coaches neglect -- stripping the ball, for instance. I think I could provide more fun and less waste in less total time. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 10, 2024 7:58:56 GMT -6
Making some progress here, I think, towards the goal stated by silkyice. If we sacrifice the ability to specify the guards and ends formation separately, we lose only a little deception; I forgot what some wing T teams call it when they have the tight end and wingback on opposite sides, but it's not that popular a change-up and we'd probably have used it only rarely, so no great loss. Which means the only formation words left are "flip" and "over".
So then the longest conceivable call becomes:
Still 7 words (not counting "on"), more than 3 but less than 8 (or 10 if you count "over' in "guard over" and "ends over"). Oh, and I'm counting the 2-digit play number as one word, although I could see silkyice objecting that it's really two, since each digit conveys info independently.
But I also remembered a couple other details I wanted us to be able to call. One would be on pass plays: to specify whether the passer looks for receivers on the right, or on the left. The other would be a couple of audibles: Throw to uncovered receiver, and quarterback jailbreak against an uncovered center. The signal would be the same for either audible -- saying, "Ready, set, set-go," instead of the usual, "Ready, set, go," but the call would be which if either of the two audibles was "on", so our signal caller would look at only one place. So now I'm looking at the possibility of adding words, getting us farther from silkyice's target. So more pruning seems to be called for.
A few seasons ago I saw the value to the offense of audibles when a particular defense showed us a Bear front and left big B and C gaps. So we called time out, changed our play, and when we lined up again of course the defense had changed its look. Last season we had a "hot" call for when we had the numbers in our trips formation. Some years on defense we've had the ability to delay the look we gave the other team, but usually not.
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Post by cqmiller on Feb 11, 2024 13:57:08 GMT -6
Right Power Rt is hard enough for my son's team to handle...
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Post by Coach.A on Feb 11, 2024 14:41:50 GMT -6
I helped coach my Godson's 10 year old team last summer. Not that this matters, but we won the championship.
Our entire playbook was:
Bucksweep Right
Trap Right
Criss Cross Counter Left
Waggle Pass Left
QB Sneak
In the huddle, those were simply called: Bucksweep, Trap, Criss Cross, Waggle, QB Sneak
We practiced 2 times a week and played 1 game a week.
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 14, 2024 7:55:13 GMT -6
That's too much for me, a 37 year old.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 14, 2024 10:47:24 GMT -6
That's too much for me, a 37 year old. Which part do you think you'd have trouble remembering between when you broke the huddle and when the play was run? If it was any of the formation call, you'd have your teammates to help you. It's unlikely they'd all forget the formation call, and because you'd be lining up in relationship to the rest of them, that would be obvious before the formation was all set -- in fact probably halfway to the line. If you were the center, quarterback, fullback, or tailback, do you think you'd forget "direct" (or think you'd forgotten it when it wasn't there)? If you were the tailback, do you think you'd forget "rocket" (or imagine you'd heard it)? If the wingback, do you think you'd forget "fly" or "blimp"? If you were on the line, do you think you'd forget "trap" or the second digit of the play number? Or that you'd forget "pass"? If you were a back, do you think you'd forget either digit of the play number? Or do you think you'd forget the snap count? How much would it ease your memorization task if the same cadence were used every time, with the fullback calling the snap based on where he saw the motion man (if any)? The fullback would still have to memorize where the motion back would have to be for that play. How much would it ease it if the "over" tags were combined into one? |
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 14, 2024 11:02:04 GMT -6
That's too much for me, a 37 year old. Which part do you think you'd have trouble remembering between when you broke the huddle and when the play was run? If it was any of the formation call, you'd have your teammates to help you. It's unlikely they'd all forget the formation call, and because you'd be lining up in relationship to the rest of them, that would be obvious before the formation was all set -- in fact probably halfway to the line. If you were the center, quarterback, fullback, or tailback, do you think you'd forget "direct" (or think you'd forgotten it when it wasn't there)? If you were the tailback, do you think you'd forget "rocket" (or imagine you'd heard it)? If the wingback, do you think you'd forget "fly" or "blimp"? If you were on the line, do you think you'd forget "trap" or the second digit of the play number? Or that you'd forget "pass"? If you were a back, do you think you'd forget either digit of the play number? Or do you think you'd forget the snap count? How much would it ease your memorization task if the same cadence were used every time, with the fullback calling the snap based on where he saw the motion man (if any)? The fullback would still have to memorize where the motion back would have to be for that play. How much would it ease it if the "over" tags were combined into one? I guess I was thinking more about install, and the limited practice time that youth teams have. As mentioned above 2-3 word playcalls are too much for some kids in that age group, let alone this. Would I personally forget any of that? Absolutely not, but I'm not a squirrely 10 year old anymore either. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 14, 2024 12:47:12 GMT -6
How much would it ease your memorization task if the same cadence were used every time, with the fullback calling the snap based on where he saw the motion man (if any)? The fullback would still have to memorize where the motion back would have to be for that play. How much would it ease it if the "over" tags were combined into one? A lot |
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Post by coachporter33 on Feb 14, 2024 14:55:49 GMT -6
As stated by several others, I think that might be too long of a call for most of my HS guys. We've gone pretty simple with formation names and play calls. Black Power Right. We can add a tag if we need to change something like "read" or "kick" or even "jet" to add motion.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 14, 2024 18:45:15 GMT -6
Which part do you think you'd have trouble remembering between when you broke the huddle and when the play was run? If it was any of the formation call, you'd have your teammates to help you. It's unlikely they'd all forget the formation call, and because you'd be lining up in relationship to the rest of them, that would be obvious before the formation was all set -- in fact probably halfway to the line. If you were the center, quarterback, fullback, or tailback, do you think you'd forget "direct" (or think you'd forgotten it when it wasn't there)? If you were the tailback, do you think you'd forget "rocket" (or imagine you'd heard it)? If the wingback, do you think you'd forget "fly" or "blimp"? If you were on the line, do you think you'd forget "trap" or the second digit of the play number? Or that you'd forget "pass"? If you were a back, do you think you'd forget either digit of the play number? Or do you think you'd forget the snap count? How much would it ease your memorization task if the same cadence were used every time, with the fullback calling the snap based on where he saw the motion man (if any)? The fullback would still have to memorize where the motion back would have to be for that play. How much would it ease it if the "over" tags were combined into one? I guess I was thinking more about install, and the limited practice time that youth teams have. As mentioned above 2-3 word playcalls are too much for some kids in that age group, let alone this. Would I personally forget any of that? Absolutely not, but I'm not a squirrely 10 year old anymore either. My experience has been that players that old and older -- even pros -- occasionally forget the snap count or the formation, but that doesn't seem enough reason to stop using either. I don't know how many times we've had the split end on the wrong side in the past few years -- a lot, but it never affected play since they happened not to be pass plays. As to snap count, with players tha age or older we've sometimes given up snapping on "set" or even the second "go", and that does mean we benefited less from defensive encroachment, but also had fewer false starts ourselves. One thing that we did that I thought was silly was get all players set in 3-point before snapping on "set", but as another coach pointed out, we still caught some opponents off guard even with that obvious "tell". My logic is that installation won't be any harder, since each modular signal need only be learned separately. I've read of other coaches using a modular system and hardly ever practicing the "whole thing" at once. Like "on one" means the same no matter hat the play is, rocket motion means the same no matter what the play is, etc. Given the number of possible combinations, there's no way anyone could run thru them all even once, and no need in most cases, but they should easily be able to practice the individual components, since they're far fewer. So for instance, the back in rocket motion just continues in a straight line until the snap. After "go", on "one" he's in position to meet the snap as it's thrown straight back as he continues, on "two" he's in position to meet the pitchout as he continues, and on "three" or more he's going to be getting into the pass pattern or just influence the defense. So "on one" and "on two" need to be practiced with rocket motion as part of a play, but for the rest it doesn't matter. If there's no motion call, it doesn't matter whether we snap on "go" or a number, it's the same play, and most of the time we'll snap on "go". But I'm trying to get a sense of how many words can be strung together before they start slipping. It's like the mental status test called "digit span", where you see how long a string of digits someone can remember a minute after being told it; most people can remember a 7-digit phone number that long, but an area code would be too much to add. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 14, 2024 19:04:01 GMT -6
As stated by several others, I think that might be too long of a call for most of my HS guys. We've gone pretty simple with formation names and play calls. Black Power Right. We can add a tag if we need to change something like "read" or "kick" or even "jet" to add motion. That sounds like the calls could be as long as the example I gave. I hope you understand that in the simplest cases, our calls would be, for example, "24 on go". That would be s simple base-blocked dive out of the normal (right, equivalent to "100" in the terminology I'd be abandoning) formation on the word "go" in "Ready, set, go." To make it a trap, the word "trap" would be added. To make it a snap to the fullback, "direct" would be added. To add a motion just as misdirection, we'd be snapping on a higher count (because "go" always starts the motion) with the word "fly", "blimp", or "rocket". We could flip the formation with "flip" and/or tag the formation to make it unbalanced -- except we wouldn't go "guard over" with "24 trap", becuse the pulling guard would be in the wrong place. So the string of words could be very short or long, because most combinations would be allowed. Or I could just adopt a rule capping the number of tags allowed on a play. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 14, 2024 20:10:01 GMT -6
Your system is good. Well thought out. Logical. Adaptable. Modular.
It is going to be a DISASTER.
You aren't just wanting to run that long play in the OP, you are wanting to be able to run that play with 400 different combinations. And then have 20 other plays that have 400 combinations. Actually, do the math, it is probably way more than that.
If you were coaching 7A football in Alabama, I would think that this is a lot, but doable and can work with good coaching. But that is because I know that
1) You will be two platoon
2) You will have 10 coaches just on offense
3) You will start meetings in January
4) You will get a Spring Training
5) You will get the kids 4 days a week during the summer.
6) You will have August to get ready for the game.
7) You will have TWO athletic PE classes. You will get your whole team twice a day during the school day.
8) You will have everything filmed from the box and a drone. DURING PRACTICE.
9) After practice you will be able to meet and watch film with your kids.
10) You have an indoor facility to still practice in bad weather.
11) You will have lights to turn on when it gets dark.
12) These kids live and breathe football.
13) Most of these kids have been playing 4-10 years already.
14) They are 15-19 year olds.
If you were doing this in 4A football in Alabama, I would think it COULD be doable because just a few schools have what I outlined above.
You have ZERO of those things outlined.
How many days a week are you practicing? For how long? Does everyone also have to practice and learn defense and special teams? What playing time requirements do you have? Will your backups be able to handle this? Will you be able to practice all this?
You even said that you didn't learn all the passing game last year. How can 10 year olds be expected to EXECUTE this? All 11 of them? Even the scrub that HAS to play? And notice I said execute. Not learn, understand, line up, not jump offsides, but execute this against defenses that can line up in different places and move and hit you.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 14, 2024 20:17:11 GMT -6
Let me add,
You can certainly run the play from the OP. You can even call it that. And execute it. You could also call it Tangerine or Barbie Special and execute it.
What you can't do, is what you are wanting to do, and that is be able to adjust the formation multiple ways, how you take a snap multiple ways, motion multiple ways, have multiple backfield schemes, multiple blocking scheme, multiple pass, and multiple counts and combine those any way you want and just be able to execute.
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 14, 2024 21:30:36 GMT -6
That's too long for most HS kids. Unless you put it on a wristband. Then maybe.
Is it neccessary? Do you need that call in youth football where the focus should be on fun, fun, learning the game, fun, and fundamentals.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 15, 2024 9:00:59 GMT -6
That's too long for most HS kids. Unless you put it on a wristband. Then maybe. Is it neccessary? Do you need that call in youth football where the focus should be on fun, fun, learning the game, fun, and fundamentals. I don't see how a wristband would make a difference, since translating the words into actions would follow straightforward decoding rules, no more complicated than the teams in our club have already been following. Where I used to coach back in the Bronx, they explicitly said our emphasis was on fun, and it was. Here in Newton NJ, they say it's to prepare the kids to play in high school, but they also seem more competitive than we were in the Bronx because here we have no minimum play rules. So some of the kids don't get as much play time here as they would've back there. I never liked the orientation around high school prep. We do have a large percentage of our graduates who go on to be on a team at the high school -- but I suspect many of them hardly ever come off the bench there. Some of the player population is practically guaranteed to turn over if for no other reason than they go from weight-limited to unlimited. But the orientation of the kid ball to what the freshmen-and-up teams are doing is wrong in other ways. For one thing, who's to say that by the time the kids get there, the HS hasn't changed its system? Even though they've had remarkable stability, playing wing T for years, I've seen changes. The QB action on their buck sweep series is no longer a reverse pivot -- so the youth teams changed theirs to conform. The HS now plays a lot of shotgun, which seems to make it harder to concentrate on developing the wing T playbook. But what actually tends to happen is the youth teams make a half-assed attempt to copy what we see in the HS practices. One day a year our play side guard goes thru the same steps of the deep pull, and then we never do it the rest of the year. We have reach blocking in our playbook (useful for jet series), but the reach steps our coaches have had the kids do are so puny, it's just a waste of time. So I say, don't try to be like them. I wouldn't even put in wing T per se in the younger teams if we weren't expected to; I think they'd do better and have more fun with sidesaddle T. And then as they grow up and get experience, switch to wing T with its greater line splits and so on. So in the meantime I thought the best compromise would be wing T with some plays snapped thru the QB's legs Sigourney-Keota style. And don't necessarily introduce shotgun at all. And don't assume the QB's going to be the major passer; it could be the FB or HB, with the QB more of a ballhandler and blocker. Also, make the practices more fun and useful by being more about football. Just because the high schoolers start with dynamic stretching doesn't mean the kids need stretching at all. Don't start with a warmup run that tires them out and delays the practice as we wait for the stragglers. And regardless of what the trends are now, more contact, since that's what most of the kids come for. I don't think you become a better blocker by trying to learn only one blocking form, nor a better tackler by trying to learn only one tackling form. Why shouldn't the kids learn both head-across and near-hip tackling? Why not shoulder, flipper, hands, and cross-body blocking? We'd have time for these things if we cut out the non-football-like stuff. Rope ladders, endurance, etc. they can work on in the spring, unpadded. I think we can cut down practice sessions from 5 to 4 a week pre-season and 4 to 3 in-season, and still get more done. And just because coaches don't think of special teams (kickoffs, mostly) doesn't mean we should give such practice less than its share, and therefore play both the kicking and receiving sides so conservatively that they're less fun and pass up attacking opportunities. Kickoff-receiving team play has been a joke: introducing it at the last minute pre-season, having the front line players play the ball only if it's square at them, and then just pick out an opposing player who's got a 10-15 yard run at them and try to make a little contact?! Never once in the years I've been coaching with this club (since 2017, skipping a Covid year) have any of them been coached to peel back, because that would involve turning their backs to the opponents -- the horror! Not only that, but as often as I try to move the front line back 2-3 yards, the other coaches keep moving them forward right up to the restraining line, which is like playing with your infield in in baseball. And our performance in games shows it. My motivation in making a modular play-call system is as part of a strategy to convince the president to make me a head coach this season. I don't want to "dis" my HC from last year, but as long as I keep coaching with fathers who have kids playing at various levels and are established as HC (and so will go down some levels to coach when one child graduates), I'll never be able to put my organizational ideas into play. I'd like to be able to show I've been thinking about all these details in the off season. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 15, 2024 9:23:31 GMT -6
Your system is good. Well thought out. Logical. Adaptable. Modular. It is going to be a DISASTER. You aren't just wanting to run that long play in the OP, you are wanting to be able to run that play with 400 different combinations. And then have 20 other plays that have 400 combinations. Actually, do the math, it is probably way more than that. It is indeed a lot of potential combinations, but my confidence is that those combinations don't need to be practiced. In wrestling, do you you coach every possible sequence of moves all the way from escape to pin? At most you might coach some 2-move combinations. Otherwise you just teach the moves and have the wrestlers employ them as advisable at the moment. In soccer, does a player have to practice separately dribbling from point A to point B, point C to point D, and point E to F? No, it's the same skill in all situations. If a player knows how to make an angle block, does he have to learn how to do it in every situation? No, he's just supposed to apply that skill to the particular assignment. So in this modular system, why would you need to practice plays separately with the wingback at positions 1, 2, and 3 in fly motion, if in most cases it's just to distract the defense and nobody else's execution has to change? Why would you need to practice separately the play with the tight end on this side vs. that side, if nothing else changes? If "trap" just means to go to the first opponent beyond the hole number, why should it matter which player shows up there? The action is the same. If "direct" means throw the snap thru the QB's legs instead of coming up into your own crotch, why would the rest of the line action have to change? So these combinations don't need their own practice. The only tag that really needs the plays to be practiced separately is "flip", because left and right are reversed. So yeah, 400 combinations would be easy. I don't anticipate that'd be the hard part. The only part I anticipate being hard, and the only part I was asking about here was, after the huddle broke, the players being able to remember the part of the play call relevant to them in case there were a lot of tags on one. All the rest is just football. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 15, 2024 10:12:04 GMT -6
So yeah, 400 combinations would be easy. I don't anticipate that'd be the hard part. The only part I anticipate being hard, and the only part I was asking about here was, after the huddle broke, the players being able to remember the part of the play call relevant to them in case there were a lot of tags on one. All the rest is just football. I literally cannot explain to you how right and how wrong you are at the same time. Experience is the only thing that can. I have tried to help. Hope it works. I really do. Best of luck to you. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 15, 2024 14:56:32 GMT -6
bobgoodman As someone who has taught over 10,000 students ages 6-12 and coached athletes ages 6-Div 1AA NCAA football, I think you are on the wrong track. It makes sense to YOU..because you are the one who came up with it. This is almost invariably always going to be true. Trust me on this. What will ultimately happen is the kids and coaches will struggle, and you will stand there exasperated and say "what the heck is wrong with you people, this is so simple". Ask yourself this-- what are you truly trying to accomplish? Are you looking for the kids to have success? If so, the playbook mentioned above is the way to go. What you seem to want to do from the outside looking in, is to "prove" your idea, as opposed to helping the kids have a successful football season.
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