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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 17, 2023 12:32:33 GMT -6
I did not want to the derail the other thread, but I have seen this comment many times on threads; so are football fundamentals really worse/getting worse, or do we all have a skewed vision of what football fundamentals were in the past?
I know I see kids doing things exponentially better than when I was in high school in the 1980's. Let me clarify, I see athletes doing things better. There are still NAFs just like when I played that can't get out of their own way. I know for a fact that I coach better than I did 30 years ago. I know we spend more time on in season correcting schematic mistakes than fundamental mistakes. We still HAVE to work fundamentals, because they can always be better.
When I see OL execution of zone double teams, WRs running routes and catching footballs, DB manipulating their hips on change of direction, down field blocking, DL working to beat double teams; I see better execution than what my brain can remember from the past. Now I am talking about at the HS level, b/c I haven't watched more than a couple of lunch periods worth of college/pro ball games on TV in a over a decade.
Also, I do think that fundamentals have changed over the years. I was in HS when the Fed changed the rule on how offensive players could block by extending the arms/hands (vs the ole 'flipper' blocking). Also QB throwing technique/mechanics have changed drastically in just the last decade or so. I didn't bookmark it, but we had a pretty epic DB thread on backpedal vs shuffle a few years ago.
So with the changes in rules, schemes, etc.... what effect does that have on our vision of the level of execution of football fundamentals?
Also the schematic part of the equation is drastically different than in the past. Things are so much more complex than in the past so the parts/periods of practice have evolved as well.
Now I have a different take/theory on tackling that I'll work up for another thread.
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Post by irishdog on Jun 17, 2023 12:53:06 GMT -6
Just have to watch pro football to validate how bad their fundamentals are. O Linemen hold just about every play (pass AND run). WR's can't block, and if they by chance they do make a block it's because they hold. RB's (if they are even used) have forgotten how to block, or how to carry the ball if they run. There are a few RB's that do a good job but overall their fundamentals are bad. Don't get me started on tackling! One word...ATROCIOUS!
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 17, 2023 12:55:26 GMT -6
Like I said in the other thread- I think OL/DL play is exponentially worse currently. Now, my only frame of reference is my area/size of schools, but I definitely see a regression in line play at that level. A lot of it is because, IMO, spread offenses, or maybe more appropriately, the people running them, don't put much value in re-establishing the line of scrimmage. These schemes are about getting your body in the way of the defender and letting the back make cuts vs, making a hole somewhere and pushing the DL 5yds off the ball. There's far more people that think OL play is just where you have to put 5 fat kids because that's what the rules say you have to have in football than there are people who know how to coach OL. It has to be bad in that NFL coaches are frequently talking about how hard it is to find guys who played D1 football that have any idea how to play OL.
Tackling is an entirely different discussion as you said.
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Post by fantom on Jun 17, 2023 13:20:48 GMT -6
You might as well have started a thread "Should kids get off my lawn?".
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 17, 2023 13:22:58 GMT -6
You might as well have started a thread "Should kids get off my lawn?". Something can actually get more poorly executed over time. It's not just because someone is a grouchy old man that they think it's true. |
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Post by okiepadokie on Jun 17, 2023 13:36:15 GMT -6
I think when you watch older offenses you see more synchronization within the whole offensive package than today, and I would say the same across college and high school. I think of watching clips of Split Back veer teams and being amazed at how fluid every single position looked and then, trying to implement and run those ideals today, realizing how much effort went in to that perfection. I am not just talking about Bill Yeoman and Houston or the Oklahoma Wishbone teams of yore, but looking at old tape of Highland Park in Texas and Thomas County Central in Georgia under Ed Pilcher. You see fundamental machines. I think the shift is the lack of fluidity year to year on coaching staffs. Think about how long some of these older teams had the same core staff together in a High School or College setting compared to now.
I think fundamentals have changed as football philosophy and scheme have changed somewhat over time, but I do hold a soft spot for the performance and positional play of teams in the 90s and earlier. I think it’s like comparing NBA players of today with the past players. Different times and different situations. Things in this current sports climate are so “right now” oriented and it shows to some degree in overall and positional play.
I don’t know if I have answered the OP, but I think it’s an interesting conversation to be had.
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Post by carookie on Jun 17, 2023 14:31:04 GMT -6
I think we need to establish what we mean by ‘fundamentals’. I think the technique used by an infividual player is technique, I dont think coordinated timing by multiple players is fundamentals though.
Also, fundamentals at what level? Most of us coach HS, but HS ball is so varied across the nation that its hard to make a blanket evaluation of such. I know of one coach who literally coaches his OL to play with their eyes down at the snap, I imagine thats a lot different than others. It just so varied that its hard to make an over arching evaluation. That being written, I believe you could be more accurate in evaluating pro and D1 football, due to its relative homogeneity.
Lastly, what are the time frames we are comparing? Fundamentals of the last 10 years? The last 50?
That being written, when I see NFL games of 50+ years ago, I see fundamentals that I would get on my players for. DL just banging forward with their shoulder pads (no hands). OL pass pro where they are off balance, and footwork is poor. WRs catching passes off their shoulder pads. DBs getting too tall, poor change of direction. Etc
That being written, I recognize that rules at the time dictated a different style of play, ergo the things they were doing (and equipment they were using) may have dictated these fundamentals.
Further, skip forward to the mid 80s, and fundamentals are a lot better. So maybe these perceived improvements in fundamentals can be attributed to changes in game play. But if that is true, then maybe any perceived decline in fundamentals can also be attributed to changes in game play
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Post by tripsclosed on Jun 17, 2023 15:57:10 GMT -6
I did not want to the derail the other thread, but I have seen this comment many times on threads; so are football fundamentals really worse/getting worse, or do we all have a skewed vision of what football fundamentals were in the past? I know I see kids doing things exponentially better than when I was in high school in the 1980's. Let me clarify, I see athletes doing things better. There are still NAFs just like when I played that can't get out of their own way. I know for a fact that I coach better than I did 30 years ago. I know we spend more time on in season correcting schematic mistakes than fundamental mistakes. We still HAVE to work fundamentals, because they can always be better. When I see OL execution of zone double teams, WRs running routes and catching footballs, DB manipulating their hips on change of direction, down field blocking, DL working to beat double teams; I see better execution than what my brain can remember from the past. Now I am talking about at the HS level, b/c I haven't watched more than a couple of lunch periods worth of college/pro ball games on TV in a over a decade. Also, I do think that fundamentals have changed over the years. I was in HS when the Fed changed the rule on how offensive players could block by extending the arms/hands (vs the ole 'flipper' blocking). Also QB throwing technique/mechanics have changed drastically in just the last decade or so. I didn't bookmark it, but we had a pretty epic DB thread on backpedal vs shuffle a few years ago. So with the changes in rules, schemes, etc.... what effect does that have on our vision of the level of execution of football fundamentals? Also the schematic part of the equation is drastically different than in the past. Things are so much more complex than in the past so the parts/periods of practice have evolved as well. Now I have a different take/theory on tackling that I'll work up for another thread. Coach, if/when fundamentals are worse, especially at college/pro levels, I would say it's because of 2 things, which may sometimes go hand-in-hand and feed off of each other. 1) A lot of "new-school" and up-and-coming folks in the coaching world that don't have an appreciation for good fundamentals = good execution = better team performance 2) The Facemelter Factor: Offensive and defensive schemes are for the most part way, way more both complex and voluminous than they were in olden days. The more complex and voluminous schemes get, both offensively and defensively, the more stuff players have to learn and retain in the heat of battle (tougher to remember stuff on a dime with the pressure on), and the less time players have to practice each individual piece of the offensive and defensive scheme. Less practice with each piece = less competency in execution of each piece. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 17, 2023 20:44:55 GMT -6
I wish you would have had a choice of just "different". It is hard to say something is better or worse when it is just different. Qbs aren't asked to utilize the same footwork as previous generations. Qbs are also throwing the ball much more accurately, for more yards and more touchdowns than ever before. So are their fundamentals "worse".
Would John Hannah or Gene Upshaw or Jim Otto or Mike Webster or Jerry Kramer be successful trying to do what modern centers, guards and tackles are asked to do? I don't think so. Not utilizing their "fundamental techniques".
The game of football is played utilizing open space more than at anytime in its history. That changes things.
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Post by blb on Jun 18, 2023 6:08:54 GMT -6
If fundamentals have indeed gotten worse at NFL and D-I levels one possible explanation is the practice time restrictions both have been under for several years now (Pros no more Two-a-Days, only three padded practices In-Season; CFB fewer spring practices, no back-to-back two-a-days, and 20-hour rule In-Season).
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Post by realdawg on Jun 18, 2023 6:11:54 GMT -6
I dont see alot of DL getting there hands on their OL, squeezing downblocks, etc....
But it really depends on the program. Some really good programs are really well coached. Bad teams have little coaching. I think to the younger generation of coaches starting to come out, that scheme overrides technique/fundamentals. That could just be bc I am becoming a grumpy old man.
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Post by jg78 on Jun 18, 2023 7:31:22 GMT -6
I can distinctly remember Michael Irvin playing WR in a three point stance for the Miami Hurricanes in the mid/late ‘80s on the best team in college football. You would get laughed out of the profession if even a high school coach taught that technique today.
I am not sure where we draw the line on scheme vs. fundamentals. But I do know this: If you took a championship college or NFL team from 40 years ago and put them in a time machine to today’s game, they would get the hell beat out of them by everybody. And they would be just as overwhelmed schematically as physically.
The game is so much more complex than it used to be. Teams are executing more difficult plays and more plays. If - if - there’s any difference in fundamentals it’s because players are asked to do more.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2023 7:40:22 GMT -6
I dont see alot of DL getting there hands on their OL, squeezing downblocks, etc.... . Are they getting a lot of blocking schemes that would warrant practice emphasis on that skill? Are OL using large splits such that a different defensive line technique might be taught? |
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Post by wingtol on Jun 18, 2023 7:46:33 GMT -6
I feel like a lot of new coaches are in love with scheme and plays over teaching the game due to a bunch of factors. I've seen a lot of guys who can draw up fancy plays and explain all the reads etc but when asked "How do you block that" or "How do you teach them to ____" there aren't many answers. Of course it's not true everywhere or for every team. And I am sure it's been going on for years. Just feel like it's become more scheme over fundamentals/teaching. Which is great when you have the talent but will kill you when you don't.
I couldn't even imagine the tackling discussion on this as others have said...
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2023 7:54:57 GMT -6
I feel like a lot of new coaches are in love with scheme and plays over teaching the game due to a bunch of factors. I've seen a lot of guys who can draw up fancy plays and explain all the reads etc but when asked "How do you block that" or "How do you teach them to ____" there aren't many answers. Of course it's not true everywhere or for every team. And I am sure it's been going on for years. Just feel like it's become more scheme over fundamentals/teaching. Which is great when you have the talent but will kill you when you don't. I couldn't even imagine the tackling discussion on this as others have said... Well- tackling is different now as well. Let’s be honest, football is played in more open space then before, with far better athletes than before, on faster surfaces (more teams with turf) than before while trying to eliminate hard collisions and head contact. Those factors are going to impact tackling. |
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Post by coachholmvik on Jun 18, 2023 7:57:18 GMT -6
Friends still in the nfl have told me they are getting a worse product compared to the past. College coaches only have time to recruit and retain not develop.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2023 10:16:30 GMT -6
I feel like a lot of new coaches are in love with scheme and plays over teaching the game due to a bunch of factors. I've seen a lot of guys who can draw up fancy plays and explain all the reads etc but when asked "How do you block that" or "How do you teach them to ____" there aren't many answers. Of course it's not true everywhere or for every team. And I am sure it's been going on for years. Just feel like it's become more scheme over fundamentals/teaching. Which is great when you have the talent but will kill you when you don't. I couldn't even imagine the tackling discussion on this as others have said... Well- tackling is different now as well. Let’s be honest, football is played in more open space then before, with far better athletes than before, on faster surfaces (more teams with turf) than before while trying to eliminate hard collisions and head contact. Those factors are going to impact tackling. Something else to add in, especially at the pro level, is the emphasis on takeaways. Hard to execute a good form tackle when you're trying to rip the ball out of the runner's hands. |
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Post by silkyice on Jun 18, 2023 10:22:03 GMT -6
From my perspective, fundamentals and techniques are on a much higher level now when compared to the 80's, 90's, 00's, and early 10's.
Year round football and youtube and twitter and even ESPN and NFL broadcasts have contributed to this. Of course there is a lot of crap to be found there, A LOT, but the point is that kids and coaches have an tremendous more amount of information and videos at their fingertips now.
Plus, IMO, fundamentals/techniques are cool now.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 18, 2023 10:23:29 GMT -6
Well- tackling is different now as well. Let’s be honest, football is played in more open space then before, with far better athletes than before, on faster surfaces (more teams with turf) than before while trying to eliminate hard collisions and head contact. Those factors are going to impact tackling. Something else to add in, especially at the pro level, is the emphasis on takeaways. Hard to execute a good form tackle when you're trying to rip the ball out of the runner's hands. And there is a stigma on going full contact in practice now where tackles aren't always finished or guys are tackling wheels. I'm not saying everything should be live all the time but at some point guys need to feel how to finish a tackle |
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Post by silkyice on Jun 18, 2023 10:28:14 GMT -6
Starting a thread on tackling to not derail this one.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2023 16:06:13 GMT -6
Friends still in the nfl have told me they are getting a worse product compared to the past. College coaches only have time to recruit and retain not develop. Eh. I don’t out much faith in that assessment- organizations and professionals have complained about “the group coming in” in all facets- business world, graduate schools, armed forces, other professions. It is just a different version of “kids today” and has been happening for all of humanity. |
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Post by CS on Jun 18, 2023 16:48:51 GMT -6
Something else to add in, especially at the pro level, is the emphasis on takeaways. Hard to execute a good form tackle when you're trying to rip the ball out of the runner's hands. And there is a stigma on going full contact in practice now where tackles aren't always finished or guys are tackling wheels. I'm not saying everything should be live all the time but at some point guys need to feel how to finish a tackle We attack the ball and talk about it but also teach them how to secure the tackle AND go for the ball. We’re a good tackling team |
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