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Post by briangilbert on Dec 13, 2007 20:23:46 GMT -6
Football is important to the school environment because it gives that school a sense of community; and to be sure, it also improves communities. Ownership is important, and this is a major part of it. I am a SR soon to graduate from college and I want to be a teacher for these reasons: 1) I want the kids I teach and coach to be more prepared for life after high school then I was 2) I want to create a better community wherever I teach at 3) I want the kids I teach and coach to enjoy life
Those are my reasons for teaching and coaching. Do I know people who only "Teach" to collect a check... Yep (My HC in HS was one). But couldn't we say that about any profession?
Personally, I think it's a stereotype to say that coaches only teach to coach. Sure, it's true in cases; but by and large it is not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 21:17:18 GMT -6
I was one of the ones who stated I would be interested in coaching d3 football. I love teaching, but I love football more so if I could do it fulltime, I would. That's what it boiled down to for me.
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Post by bulldogoption on Dec 13, 2007 21:37:38 GMT -6
For me, the reason I would say something like "I would rather just coach 100% time" is that I'm borderline obsessive about stuff I get into. I would guess many on this board are like that. I like coaching and I like teaching. They REALLY get in the way at times...i.e. I only have so much time and anything less than 100% time and effort on something tends to really stress me out. If you took football out of schools, I would definitely still be teaching and my teaching would be SO MUCH better. I'm not a terrible teacher now, I just am not able to give 100% time and effort to classes because I give time to coaching as well. It would almost be a blessing in disguise, i.e. I don't know If I can stop coaching, somebody may have to force me to.
Something about taking sports out of schools smells of privatization. I waver back and forth on my thoughts on busting up unions and privatizing all education. Doing something like this may start us on that slope, if we're not already.
So......I don't think most are teaching just to coach, they like teaching and coaching but throw themselves into it so, such that they conflict at times.
Coachd5085: Clarification needed
Taking football out is better for what or who? Better for football, schools, kids, coaches, community, society....?
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Post by coache67 on Dec 13, 2007 23:08:59 GMT -6
However, while watching a recent PBS special on college athletics [the] values that college sports is supposed to develop, [are]already deeply ingrained in the athletes because that is what got them there. Not just football, which is a H.S sport...but sports such as Volleyball/Basketball/Soccer/Baseball (which are all probably 50-50 or 60-40 H.S /Club) and more importantly sports such as swimming, tennis, golf, gymnastics.... which are nearly 100% club. Does anyone else know how athletics are handled in other parts of the world? Every school I have ever coached at had your list as varsity sports. I am sure that it is not like this everywhere, but where I live it is. As far as other parts of the world, sports are clubs. I would like the input of our British bretheren on this thread, as I am sure their experience is vastly different than ours. On this thread all I have seen are arguments for keeping sport in schools. Other than coachd50850, whom I conclude is playing TDA, posters agree that teachers/coaches make a differenece - except no "leaders" go into teaching. I disagree with that. I would say that the majority of the members of this board are leaders. You are in a rare profession. To me, a DI college football job would be the penulitmate job - DI - assistant - anywhere. That is one job of "about" 1000 in the US. You make a difference - not all teachers do nor do all coaches. How many of you know someone who coaches for the money? I have, but I can guarantee that the guys who are not teachers sure don't! The Amherst kids are principled and disciplined because you taught them to be. My argument would be that if football wasn't in school in today's society, Amherst might not have sports at all.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 23:35:45 GMT -6
coache67--just to clarify...my percentages for those sports weren't whether they existed or not at H.S, but rather the importance or degree of emphasis/excellence of that sport when comparing the H.S variety to the club variety. Meaning--I would argue that Club volleyball and soccer is probably more competitive/demanding/"important" (in the sense that Ohio state vs Lsu is more "important" than FAU vs Memphis) than H.S volleyball or soccer, and AAU basketball is on par with H.S. basketball.
As far as the leadership issues...and keeping sport in schools, NONE of the arguments given have shown that any of those qualities would be lost if sports (football) became a municipal/recreation dept thing, and not a High School Thing.
Bulldogoption--I guess when I started the thread, i was thinking about it from a coaches prospective. Coaching would no longer need to be (but obviously could still be) heavily populated by teachers.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 13, 2007 23:47:36 GMT -6
Fathers and mothers have lost the idea that the highest aspiration they might have for their children is for them to be wise... specialized competence and success are all that they can imagine"- Allan Bloom
"football and athletics in general is one of the true things that is holding this country together in my opinion" Tog
Right or wrong football (and other sports and activities) is the reason about 60% of our (meaning MY school, yet I'd bet this is the case elsewhere) students even show up for school. Many of them would drop out and work if not for activities. This could be a sad commentary about the state of education (society too) in America (NCLB certainly isn't helping our condition)... but I think not. I was one of those who went to school only because of football. Coaching was the primary motivation for me getting in to teaching... but a funny thing happened along the way, I learned something... and found an academic discipline that was almost as intriguing as football for me. I see this happen to former and current players all of the time.
My mother taught in a junior high that eliminated sports many years ago. The failure rate was (is) incredibly abysmal.
Maybe sports would be better outside of a scholastic setting (which I would never believe), but schools would fall apart without them. Football (Sports/Activities) are the cornerstone... maybe even the foundation of the school community here (rural, Middle-America). Get rid of football- and all our kids transfer or drop out and we would close our doors within three years.
Activities are a tremendous lure to those who do not have the social, intellectual or emotional maturity to engage in academics because they will need it later on. Most kids don't eat right, put alcohol or drugs in to their system... they hear what's good or bad for them and do not care. They might not care about Math or English- but if they love football, they will care enough to pass... and they might accidentally learn something before they are mature enough to learn on purpose.
To educate children, first we have to get them through the doors. Activities are one of the greatest encouragers to give 14-18 year olds a reason to get up early, behave, complete school work... so at 3:30 they can play.
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Post by wildcat on Dec 14, 2007 3:18:10 GMT -6
What is the purpose of this thread? With all due respect, I think that the premise is pretty silly...is there a movement brewing anywhere in the country to take football and other extracurricular activities out of the school?
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 14, 2007 7:13:26 GMT -6
What is the purpose of this thread? There is no purpose! The idea of coaching vs. teaching and football in schools has no connection.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 14, 2007 7:37:15 GMT -6
What is the purpose of this thread? With all due respect, I think that the premise is pretty silly...is there a movement brewing anywhere in the country to take football and other extracurricular activities out of the school?
I haven't heard any definite movements, but know of several districts (Denver Public Schools, for one) that have done way with school sports at the jh/ms level. I also have listened (not necessarily by choice) to school board members across the state who think eliminating school sports is a good idea. They cite sports as being "too expensive" (and this is in rural Nebraska... kind of scares me).
I'm not sure we'll get anywhere in this thread, but there may come a time when we have to defend what we do in the academic setting. I hope that time never comes, but it may happen somewhere.
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Post by airman on Dec 14, 2007 13:45:43 GMT -6
just to play devils advocate here. football in public schools is really a rather new concept when you think about it. sports in general are as well.
the fact is public schools with out sports were around for many years.
I am sure in the future there will be a time when the a cost benefit analysis will be done to see if the cost of sports is best for schools.
I say this however, schools will consolidate to save their sports teams when this period of the next great depression comes to America.
It is going to be hard to justify a sports team when fuel costs hit 5 to 8 bucks a gallon in the US. when you cannot afford books some thing will have to go. If you do not think this will happen I feel sorry for you. a barrel of crude oil hits 125 dollars you will have 5 dollar gas.
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Post by carson101 on Dec 14, 2007 15:52:18 GMT -6
I commend teachers but you guys really don't get to teach a subject with complete truth, take history for instance if it was true history then why is it so censored. Just my opinion my kids haven't learned about any wars or real world history that matters other than what was on the news. Thats pathetic, Kids learn more about life in football from coaches that give a care than most people learn all day. Kudos to those teachers that try to stand for the real truth, screw the Admin that micro manages on the political correctness that society dictates. Coaches are the S**T...
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Post by wildcat on Dec 14, 2007 19:23:02 GMT -6
What is the purpose of this thread? There is no purpose! The idea of coaching vs. teaching and football in schools has no connection. Nice selective editing skills there, chief! My point is that I don't even know why there is a debate about this...are sports going to be taken out of schools and run by some local private organization? Is that being discussed anywhere?
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 14, 2007 19:55:42 GMT -6
There is no purpose! The idea of coaching vs. teaching and football in schools has no connection. Nice selective editing skills there, chief! My point is that I don't even know why there is a debate about this...are sports going to be taken out of schools and run by some local private organization? Is that being discussed anywhere? I was agreeing with you.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 14, 2007 23:27:09 GMT -6
i am a big believer in extra-curriculars... think they had so much to one's life. we can discuss the "validity" of what is learned or not learned. but, sometimes, things are necessary that are just "fun" or enjoyable. being a part of something makes the whole educational experience so much better. much of what is learned in life doesn't come from a book. think of it as balancing one's life. when we get into the professional world, we still pick up hobbies or things we do outside of our "job" that make life enjoyable. things that energize us and allow us to do a better job at our profession. extra-curricular activities serve this purpose for students. these "hobbies" may help to energize them so that their "job" (school work) doesn't seem so mundane. also, it adds to the overall experience they have while in school. i hate to think that people consider school or education as merely math, history, english, etc. i.e. the "classroom" and give no thought to the other activities that really make high school special (sports, band, drama club, etc.). all these things are important for us socially, educationally, and developmentally.
now, i often "dread" the classroom at times merely because of the strain it causes on my time. being a good classroom teacher requires so much time and energy that it can really wear on you during your season. i have had the "luxury" of not being in the classroom for 3 years so i've gotten used to only have to do football. it has allowed me to become even more in-depth in my planning. so, yes, in a perfect world (for me as a football coach) i would only have to deal with coaching football. but, i don't neglect the impact and service i do as a classroom teacher. but, when i was fired a while back, it wasn't because my test scores were low (btw, they weren't ... and, i must profess, i have actually won a couple of awards as a classroom teacher -- but, that's beside the point). in fact, i could have stayed at that school merely as a teacher. however, i choose to coach so i had to move on.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 15, 2007 8:20:34 GMT -6
WILDCAT--
I just started the thread after reading how many "ideal" situations were football only. The next logical question in my mind would be then, "how many coaches would have chosen a different profession if our sports system was COMPLETELY different...(ie, not tied with schools, not 3:30 practices...etc"
Again, just throwing out ideas and playing devils advocate, but all of the ideas on this thread that are lauding the benefits of sports extra curriculars come from (I assume) people who have not experienced any other set up.
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Post by coache67 on Dec 15, 2007 11:09:57 GMT -6
coachd5085 - your club sport analogy is one I would also disagree with. AAU, club, Legion all those really don't have a lot of validity to me b/c you are basically creating a supposed All Star team that plays other supposed all star teams - now if you are talking individual endeavors I would agree with you somewhat. If I had a daughter who was an all star tennis player and just b/c her club season is demanding and may prepare her and offer her an opportunity outside of school sports, doesn't mean I wouldn't want her to play for her school, perhaps win a state championship and do something meaningful in the eyes of the little girls in the community in which she lives. However, if my son is a boxer, schools don't offer it, he doesn't have any other choice than AAU/GG boxing. I think you are comparing apples and oranges. I also disagree with this setup b/c of the exclusive nature of these set ups - you are losing a lot of kids b/c of this. I also feel that it is more meaningful to develop and win with a group of community kids than pick and choose from a disparate area.
You also keep referencing other countries and other set ups. The fact is this - the majority of us live in the US where sports are in the schools, and while it may not have always been the case, it is now. And maybe someday the polar ice caps will melt all over us, our cars will rust in our driveways and we will have to pull our rifles out and live in some Mad Max sort of world, but we dont' now and people in America enjoy their sports in schools. I went to a BBall game last night between two neighboring communities and it was awesome. It was part of the culture of America.
Another part of the culture of America is that we are a nation of people who like to compete, and those who don't compete sometimes like to watch people who do - it makes them part of the community and allows them to have some identity with the competitors. For the past three years I have coached at a school that hasn't had a lot of success in football, a little bit of success in others and great success in CC. We had the best record in school history this year and I see more football gear around the area - not just in our school community but others as well. Our CC team won their third State Championship in a row and I have yet to see anyone other than a coach or runner sport their gear anywhere.
Baseball may be America's pasttime but football is its passion. There is a reason some towns put a FB in a boys crib when he is born - there is a reason we have a month of bowl games. If you take it out of schools it becomes another rec league sport where everyone gets a trophy and dilutes the competition on the field. That my friend may be great for little ones coming up, but if you want to prepare leaders for the future, offer them some lessons they can apply to their life after sports and let everyone boy who comes to school, makes the grades and wants to achieve the opportunity to play the greatest team sport in the world.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 15, 2007 18:57:45 GMT -6
coache67
with all do respect, you have only changed one part of the equation in your analysis. You are assuming that everything OUTSIDE the school environment would remain the same, and sports were just eliminated from the school environment.
NOTE TO ALL...I am not advocating this. Just looking at it from a different angle.
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Post by semi-pro64 on Dec 15, 2007 21:59:34 GMT -6
senatorblutarsky is correct, I coach in Colorado and vast majority of schools in the Denver area do NOT have any Jr or middle school football or sports programs. Some schools do have sports, baseball, basketball, etc but not football. Outside of Denver they do have programs setup like in most states. What happens is the kids play in middle school and by the time they get to high school they learn a lot of bad habits (on and off the field). If you were to make football a club sport, you lose the ability to control the sports from a school level. You will have kids who get all F's or drop out and still play (Coaches look the other way), you will have recruiting of players out of the area, older kids coming to play HS football among other problems. You could have a governing body however they would not be as strong are now and their wouldn't near as much over sign. I coach at a school that has 75% of the kids on our team getting free or reduced lunch and most of the kids out for football come to school just for football. If you took football out of the schools they wouldn't come to school and if they did come, they would be lazy when it comes to getting their homework done. With football we can keep them in check, make sure they go to study hall and get their work done, become good people when they leave the school. By the way, I worked in New Zealand coaching and playing football, their high school programs were club and the football environment sucked. Half the kids I coached didn't go to school at all.
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